Jack17 PFS log

[Jack17]

Thoughts regarding PFS:

Others may have stated similar thoughts but here is my current thoughts:

PFS is a puzzle. Why do some not have any issue but others suffer significant SE and this is resistant to normalize or improvement after stopping the medication???
I personally used Avodart for years, maybe 10 years and frequently went off this for medication for weeks to months and then would restart with no problems. (avodart has a long half life and maybe this is protective as DHT should more slowly increase and before my crash I had stopped for a much longer time than normal) In fact frequently when I would restart Avodart, I would have a libido boost for a while. When on Avodart, my Testosterone was 1300-1400 (300-1100) Like most guys the med increased our T because it decreased DHT by some 95%. So the feed back from the DHT decrease is to increase T. So the androgen receptor acclimates to a higher than normal T and a significantly lower than normal DHT. With the supra therapeutic T level ( without really feeling like your T is 1300) , you would think the AR is to some degree of resistance. Then you stop Avodart ( or finesteride) and DHT floods AR and creates significant AR resistance. And T decreases as a response to higher DHT level. So why does this persist??? Maybe the continued DHT elevation keeps the AR in some resistant state. I tried Anavar but that made me feel worse. It is supposed to block (antagonize) DHT but maybe lower dose (like I took 10mg once or twice a day) it's not blocking but stimulating AR which is causing more resistance. If you block DHT then maybe this would help make the AR more sensitive. Others have felt better using Anavar. Maybe this worked because iHateFin and others were using higher dose. Maybe the DHT blocking effect occurs at higher doses??? Anyway, my point is maybe the key is to try to lower DHT significantly. Maybe the benefit from of Progesterone is that it is decreasing DHT and then if you are lucky maybe the AR becomes more sensitive, and you are cured.
I am now taking Ginko because it inhibits 5ar and I am hoping decreasing DHT will improve symptoms. Libido seems mildly higher and definitely sweating more. I am using same brand and dosing as a PH guy.
I am considering starting an extremely low dose Avodart. My thoughts are that Avodart is not still causing the problem. What happened because of the dramatically fluctuating DHT caused the problem. I have high DHT now so 5ar is still working. It's the AR that is not working.
I would be interested what others think. If I restated something that has already been said or refuted, no worries. We are all just trying to push for a cure here.

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 It persists, because your have downregulated 3alph hsd, and overexpressed AR in DHT sensitive areas. And upregulated Gaba receptor which stops conversion of DHT into 3 adiol, this is why you have it HIGH.

This kills testosterone action. If you lower DHT you will feel better. since DHT action on the brain will be less and brain will demethylate all ARs and testosterone will start working.


Gingko does not block 5ar < ginko blocks gaba receptor and by doing this, it allows the flow of allopregnenoone and 3 adiol.


DHT gets converted into 3 adiol since 3 adiol is allowed, 3 adiol increases gaba, so if gaba receptor is upregulated then gaba stops the conversion of DHT into 3 adiol and Dht could be high for that reason.

This is why in this study they see that ginkgo increased 5 AR. Action Mechanism of Ginkgo biloba Leaf Extract Intervened by Exercise Therapy in Treatment of Benign Prostate Hyperplasia


here is some info on gaba and ginko.


Finasteide binds NADPH, this kills DHT and kills allopregnenolone .

to convert progesterone into allopregnenolone you need 3 alph hsd. which is the same enzyme which converts DHT into 3 adiol.

So if 3 alpha hsd is not going. then you will have high DHT and low allopregnenolone, which is seen in some cases of PFS.

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 https://hackstasis.com/threads/pfs-gaba-ars-dht-testosterone-mechanism-of-pfs-continued.1456/

I explained everything here.

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 Another possibility could be that finasteride upregulated g6pd, which makes NADPH.

and now you make too much NADPH, 5AR works on NADPH. and makes DHT. high DHT methylates the ARs and lower estrogen, and your libido problems are from low estrogen.

if you take avodart or fin, they directly bind NADPH< same as progesterone.

And you feel better. so I guess you need to try to downregulate g6pd enzyme.


since if you take progesterone or testosterone, or fin, you will keep upregulating this enzyme.

This is another variant of what is going on.

I wonder how you would feel on DHEA which inhibits G6PD

 

[Jack17]

@Jack17 Another possibility could be that finasteride upregulated g6pd, which makes NADPH.

and now you make too much NADPH, 5AR works on NADPH. and makes DHT. high DHT methylates the ARs and lower estrogen, and your libido problems are from low estrogen.

if you take avodart or fin, they directly bind NADPH< same as progesterone.

And you feel better. so I guess you need to try to downregulate g6pd enzyme.


since if you take progesterone or testosterone, or fin, you will keep upregulating this enzyme.

This is another variant of what is going on.

I wonder how you would feel on DHEA which inhibits G6PD

I tried dhea 1.5 years ago and maybe felt slightly better for very short time. You don’t think taking a very low dose avodart could help? I mean like one drop of the capsule once a week. This would be to try to decrease dht slowly.

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 Boris felt great on anavar when his cortisol was high. ihatefin and Boris did not take higher dosages of var, they took 10mg twice daily, so did Joe. and all 3 had the same effect of complete recovery while on the drug. Anavar blocks AR receptors in the brain.

 

[Helen]

I tried dhea 1.5 years ago and maybe felt slightly better for very short time. You don’t think taking a very low dose avodart could help? I mean like one drop of the capsule once a week. This would be to try to decrease dht slowly.

it can help , which I already wrote to you about many times. If people took fin very very low dosage they would probably not crash.

but people took fin huge dosages and caused androgen deprivation.

 

[Jack17]

it can help , which I already wrote to you about many times. If people took fin very very low dosage they would probably not crash.

but people took fin huge dosages and caused androgen deprivation.

Okay, thanks!

 

[Jack17]

More thoughts:

People have occasionally tried to restart Fin and have had horrible results. I defer to Helen's more in depth understanding and research in this area, but what if restarting Avodart could help reset everything????
Others have tried this and most have felt worse and then stopped. If the AR is resistent to DHT and T then starting 5ar inhibitor could increase resistence to DHT (if the resistence is from the abnormally low DHT from Fin/Avodart and then the rapid increase DHT causing an exagerated reflex to this increase in DHT resulting in AR resistence) and maybe this relative decrease in DHT( from starting 5ar) agonizes even less to the AR. Since DHT and T are higher in some PFS suffers, would it not stand to reason that maybe the initial effect of Avodart/Fin is over and we are just left with the side effects. What I mean is, is it really a horrible idea to experiment with Avodart??? To some degree, I believe the persistent side effects are a result of AR resistence a result of extreme fluctuation of DHT. So what if someone starts a very low dose Avodart, say1/8th a capsule once or twice a week??? Avodart should ( I believe) not fluctuate DHT levels as much as Fin given the half life ( not sure about this.) If you very slowly and carefully add back in Avodart, then DHT would slowly decrease. This could hopefully help reverse (normalize) the AR resistence that has occured. I think others have tried Avodart?? Didn't someone take one tab but felt worse but then had a higher libido?? Think about it, one cap would decrease DHT a lot and there maybe is no time for AR to become more sensitive.

By the way, what was the DHT CSF levels? I know there was a post about this but I can't find it.

 

[Jack17]

By the way, I started Ginko18 days ago and no real change in libido ( by far my biggest complaint!) but I do feel more calm. This is a real subjective symptoms but I do believe it has helped. My thought is to stay on Ginko as I see no significant down side and possible upside. Maybe staying on Ginko and then starting Avodart (extreme low dose), there could be a synergy with GABA. Who knows!
I do feel (for me) all Testosterone or DHT trials, even Trib, I had maybe a slight improvement in that maybe with the elevation the AR worked slightly better but this was fleeting and shut down quickly and then I felt worse. I feel this may drive more AR resistence for me. Maybe that pathway just makes my situation worse and the anti androgen pathway is more likely to help. I have high DHT and T levels.

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 you are going circles, I just posted to you 2 posts away . that if you take duta or fin very very low dosage, your DHT will fall, and that will give you more estrogen action which gives you libido.

if you lower DHT levels, this will demethylate your DNA and your testosterone and estrogen will work again.


This is why people who go on fin very very low dosage feel cured . I had 2-3 people try this. and it works.


DHT is very low in CSF

 

[Jack17]

@Jack17 you are going circles, I just posted to you 2 posts away . that if you take duta or fin very very low dosage, your DHT will fall, and that will give you more estrogen action which gives you libido.

if you lower DHT levels, this will demethylate your DNA and your testosterone and estrogen will work again.


This is why people who go on fin very very low dosage feel cured . I had 2-3 people try this. and it works.

I know. It's a big step so my posts are to some extent trying to convince myself! Thanks for your help too! I have checked my estradiol level and it's mid range. Does that change your mind regarding the estrogen part? Do those who try Fin, stay on it? Do you think Avodart is less risky for the reasons above?

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 I think the explanation of high T and DHT could be 2.

1) is not working 3 alph hsd

2) overexpressed G6PD


Lets look at second variant.

if your g6pd is induced too much, you produce NADPH too much.

This explains your high DHT and test.


Since receptors are also overexpressed in DHT sensitive tissues, , now you are stuck with high NADPH and also high DHT receptors.

and obviously your ARs will be shut down.


Progesterone binds NADPH. Finasteride binds NADPH, dutasteride binds NADPH

This is why you would feel better on all of those.



When NADPH is too much what happens? it activates NADPH oxidase which breaks down NADPH and makes ROS.


this is why PFS people never get sick. Since their immune system is too much.



When you take dutasteride of finasteride, what happens? they bind NADPH. same as progesterone does.


Body fight it and start making tons of NADPH. by inducing g6PD.

When you quit dutasteride or finasteride , boom you are not blocking NADPH anymore.

But body is making tons of it. and your testosterone and DHT go up.

body to fight this. take this NADPH and starts breaking it down, with NADPH oxidase

which creates ROS and inhibits Nitric oxide production.

this is why nothing works. since there is no NO



As far as dutasteride. you took it, and it does have really long life. so the come off would be very very slow. but you crashed anyway.

 

[Helen]

@Jack17 for some reason, you think that taking DHT will make you feel btter. it wont. it should make you feel bad.

as it did in most people who took r andro with high DHT levels. you cant feel good on it. and none of your 3 days , 5 days cycles would do anything at all

people who recovered cycled r andro for months.


The way you can go about it. you could try to use NADPH oxidase inhibitor. this will decrease NADPH oxidase.

increase your nitric oxide. totally get rid of symptoms and slowly downregulate penthose cycle. and NADPH production.


Binding NADPH with duta or fin, will help only if you stay on it. since your body got used to making certain amount of NADPH.



Very simply, you take DUTA< it bind NADPH , keeps binding NADPH. body has to make more NADPH to fight this binding. so it upregulates NADPH producing enzymes( G6PD)


when you quit fin, or duta, you are not binding NADPH anymore. but your NADPH producing enzymes stay UPREGULATED.

this creates tons of NADPH. which then goes into NADPH oxidase, and this kills your nitric oxide .

SO if inhibit NADPH oxidase, I would assume you should feel cured.

PFS has nothing to do with any DHT or testosterone it has to do with the fact that neither DHT nor Testosterone WORK
they need nitric oxide to work. All they do is release nitric oxide.

but how can you have nitric oxide, if you are creating ROS with NADPH oxidase. You cant.

So nitric oxide production gets inhibited. and DHT and test just fluctuate doing nothing.


this is why people never gets sick and this is why people get scarring and fibrosis in the dick. since NADPH oxidase is making ROS all the time.

 

[Jack17]

Okay I started the Avodart protocal. I want to proceed very cautiously. I calculated there are 12 drop of liquid in a gel cap when puncturing with small paper clip. I will start with one drop every other day so will average around 1/4 cap per week.

@Jack17 I think the explanation of high T and DHT could be 2.

1) is not working 3 alph hsd

2) overexpressed G6PD


Lets look at second variant.

if your g6pd is induced too much, you produce NADPH too much.

This explains your high DHT and test.


Since receptors are also overexpressed in DHT sensitive tissues, , now you are stuck with high NADPH and also high DHT receptors.

and obviously your ARs will be shut down.


Progesterone binds NADPH. Finasteride binds NADPH, dutasteride binds NADPH

This is why you would feel better on all of those.



When NADPH is too much what happens? it activates NADPH oxidase which breaks down NADPH and makes ROS.


this is why PFS people never get sick. Since their immune system is too much.



When you take dutasteride of finasteride, what happens? they bind NADPH. same as progesterone does.


Body fight it and start making tons of NADPH. by inducing g6PD.

When you quit dutasteride or finasteride , boom you are not blocking NADPH anymore.

But body is making tons of it. and your testosterone and DHT go up.

body to fight this. take this NADPH and starts breaking it down, with NADPH oxidase

which creates ROS and inhibits Nitric oxide production.

this is why nothing works. since there is no NO



As far as dutasteride. you took it, and it does have really long life. so the come off would be very very slow. but you crashed anyway.

By the way I crashed on it but it was really stupid in retrospect. I had stopped for about three months. I think my libido had decreased a little bit or I thought my hair was thinning a bit, not sure so I restarted it as I had so many times. I started taking two tabs at a time sometimes 3 tabs because I had noticed this would really put libido in over drive. I didn't notice the improvement so I thought it must be the fact I had bought a generic so I got brand name and did the same. In the mean time I gave myself couple of testosterone injections. Probably the worse thing to do. It took a while to figure out what was going on. So I went from taking 2-3 tabs a day to 0.

 

[Ingeno]

@Jack17 for some reason, you think that taking DHT will make you feel btter. it wont. it should make you feel bad.

as it did in most people who took r andro with high DHT levels. you cant feel good on it. and none of your 3 days , 5 days cycles would do anything at all

people who recovered cycled r andro for months.


The way you can go about it. you could try to use NADPH oxidase inhibitor. this will decrease NADPH oxidase.

increase your nitric oxide. totally get rid of symptoms and slowly downregulate penthose cycle. and NADPH production.


Binding NADPH with duta or fin, will help only if you stay on it. since your body got used to making certain amount of NADPH.



Very simply, you take DUTA< it bind NADPH , keeps binding NADPH. body has to make more NADPH to fight this binding. so it upregulates NADPH producing enzymes( G6PD)


when you quit fin, or duta, you are not binding NADPH anymore. but your NADPH producing enzymes stay UPREGULATED.

this creates tons of NADPH. which then goes into NADPH oxidase, and this kills your nitric oxide .

SO if inhibit NADPH oxidase, I would assume you should feel cured.

PFS has nothing to do with any DHT or testosterone it has to do with the fact that neither DHT nor Testosterone WORK
they need nitric oxide to work. All they do is release nitric oxide.

but how can you have nitric oxide, if you are creating ROS with NADPH oxidase. You cant.

So nitric oxide production gets inhibited. and DHT and test just fluctuate doing nothing.


this is why people never gets sick and this is why people get scarring and fibrosis in the dick. since NADPH oxidase is making ROS all the time.

Is the dick scarring and fibrosis reversible? Sounds scary and my dick seems to have some shrinkage. Also I haven't been sick in years, also no muscle pumps, which correlates with the nitric oxide theory. Funny how each of your theories sounds so damn familiar, love it. Never a boring day with Helen.

 

[TubZy]

Is the dick scarring and fibrosis reversible? Sounds scary and my dick seems to have some shrinkage. Also I haven't been sick in years, also no muscle pumps, which correlates with the nitric oxide theory. Funny how each of your theories sounds so damn familiar, love it. Never a boring day with Helen.

I'm not helen but I will answer just for now, but it is as many of us have already experienced and reversed it personally. Don't just focus on your dick otherwise you will go crazy and never solve the underlying issue since its a systematic problem, but there is a nitric oxide thread where we talked about this topic in depth, can't find it off the top of my head now though

 

[Jack17]

Update:
Took est 1/4 tab propecia last Wednesday. I I initially noticed more energy. This is like a slight amphetamine type feeling. This continues but maybe dropped off s little. I’ve lost about 7 lbs. And the past couple days I’ve been eating more calories to test if this is real and I haven’t gained wt( est 10 lbs up since pfs and it’s not muscle!) libido slightly higher every day. This morning super hard MW and lasted maybe 10 min after I got. This is the not normal for me, except for pre pfs. Mood is good. Haven’t tested libido bc always fighting with with over pfs!
Over I feel better. I plan to take 1/8-1/4 tab in 1-2 weeks.
I actually got Tei supplements couple days ago but will be holding off until I see how this goes.
This protocol, like others have said, seems to make sense as far as what could have happened to us and how you can possibly treat it. It still seems like playing with fire!
But if this gets me 90%+ better I don’t care if I have to take it the rest of my life!

 

[RebelWithACause]

Update:
Took est 1/4 tab propecia last Wednesday. I I initially noticed more energy. This is like a slight amphetamine type feeling. This continues but maybe dropped off s little. I’ve lost about 7 lbs. And the past couple days I’ve been eating more calories to test if this is real and I haven’t gained wt( est 10 lbs up since pfs and it’s not muscle!) libido slightly higher every day. This morning super hard MW and lasted maybe 10 min after I got. This is the not normal for me, except for pre pfs. Mood is good. Haven’t tested libido bc always fighting with with over pfs!
Over I feel better. I plan to take 1/8-1/4 tab in 1-2 weeks.
I actually got Tei supplements couple days ago but will be holding off until I see how this goes.
This protocol, like others have said, seems to make sense as far as what could have happened to us and how you can possibly treat it. It still seems like playing with fire!
But if this gets me 90%+ better I don’t care if I have to take it the rest of my life!

Very interesting. Cool that you are testing it out. I think it took a few months with PFStinks before it stuck.

 

[Jack17]

Update.
On Monday I took like 1/10-20th est tab of propecia. That was at day 5. My libido was starting to improve before I took it. For example my wife was wearing a low cut tank top and just looking at her I felt like I was getting excited. She’s beautiful and has a perfect body and it’s ridiculous I can’t even react to her. But was feeling positive about that. I took the dose on the 5th day as an experiment. I think after u take it libido drops for couple days. I think DHT ( thought I read)starts coming back up after 4th day. Anyway, I think definitely will wait at least to 7-14th day. Overall I feel normalish. No sides. I was reading accurtane fin recoveries and not a lot have recovered. Hopefully the lower intermittent dosing will be more successful. I started this pathway with avodart but changed to propecia seemed like there was more recoveries compared to avodart. I was thinking maybe should have stayed on avodart. Maybe it’s the fluctuating dose that causes the problem. IDK.
I think genital sensitivity is better.