Optimizing 5AR/DHT

[PFStinks]

WARNING: I AM NOT A DOCTOR, THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL JOURNAL.

I have had very promising results coming from getting DHT to an optimal range for the androgen receptors to function.

2 cases:
1) DHT sky high, and needs to be lowered, but not too low.
2) DHT rock bottom, and needs to be increased, but not too high.

The following is for sky high DHT, but the opposite should apply for rock bottom DHT:

I've concluded that I'm in the sky high category, I've had results but nothing has stuck yet due to optimizing being tricky.

Let me explain HOW tricky it is...
Lets say that the range my body needs to get into is about 50 - 75 DHT units.
If my current DHT is at 300 units, and I lower it down too much, to lets say 25 units, there seems to be some sort of 5AR/DHT shut down, the body doesnt recognize this extremely low amount and thinks "Stay shut down until it gets back up to 300". It can take about a 1 week to 10 days to get back in to a range the body is used to.
I thought "Wont the body function when it goes up from 25 units, towards 50 - 75 units". NOPE, I've lowered it too low, this cycle is ruined. I am broken until I get towards 300 again.

Doing this is tricky, but it is 100% possible.

The problem I've found is that the 5AR inhibitors I know of either have too long of a half life to be able to experiment with properly or are too powerful.

Here are some issues:

- Lycopene (Found in Tomato juice)
PROS: Not too powerful
CONS: has a 6 day half life, this is really long to experiment with properly.

- Finasteride
PROS: Shot half life, 6hrs.
CONS: Finasteride accumulates in body. Finasteride is very powerful.

- High dose zinc
PROS: Relatively safe
CONS: Who knows the half life, also accumulates in body

- Coconut
I don't know much about this one at all.

So I need to try find a 5AR inhibitor that is not too powerful, doesn't half a long half life and doesn't accumulate easily.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I pray to God we can all overcome this, thanks for reading.

 

[Helen]

I think it is not about that.

it is about when you inhibit 5ar, your estrogen goes up,

when you let DHT go up high , your 3b- adiol goes up ( which is estrogen)

So you play around 2 estrogens,


You can try to inihbit 5ar and aromatase at the same time, may be that will work.

since if you have high DHT, then you have 3b adiol , if you lower DHT , 3b adiol falls, but estrogen rises.

if you inhibit both estrogens, SHBG will go down, and you will have free testosterone.

Also you can try to take propecia with SAME, which will speed your metabolism up, and this will allow you to inhibit 5ar without problems.



formestane is both AI and 5ar inhibitor

 

[Helen]

Look at Wuf tests , he had high DHT , but zero 3a-adiol. Non existant

Means his DHT does not convert into 3a- adiol at all.

I assume since 3a-adiol is gaba agonist. And what gaba does. GABA takes potassium out of the cell. that is how it slows down nervous system. So if DHT does not want to convert into GABA agonist, means the body does not want to take potassium out of the cell.

this is where SamE comes around. Same pushes potassium into the cell , this allows GABA, and thus DHT converts into 3a- adiol more. and less into 3 b- adiol.


Look at Jack17 trials, he is doing ok.


What is interesting is that he usually was getting suppressed by taking duta. But now , when he took duta the other day, his libido was not suppressed at all anymore.

this tells you it is not about DHT at all, it seems, it is all about free test.

 

[Helen]

@PFStinks I mean it would be very very hard to lock in DHT into just one range. it is almost impossible, it normally fluctuates.

as I understand you tried the finasteride come off same as Jack17 is doing and were doing this for a long time now. Like what a year?

So when you come off fin you still crash, right?

 

[PFStinks]

@PFStinks I mean it would be very very hard to lock in DHT into just one range. it is almost impossible, it normally fluctuates.

as I understand you tried the finasteride come off same as Jack17 is doing and were doing this for a long time now. Like what a year?

So when you come off fin you still crash, right?

My experience with finasteride is pretty much the same as the example in the original post.

Let's say my "normal" PFS state is a sky high DHT of 300 units.

If I crush a finasteride pill and I get the dust on the tip of my finger, a very small amount and have this, it may lower my DHT to something like 50-75 units, and I will feel good.
But if I have a little more, and get down to 30 units I crash and have to wait for it to go back up towards 300.

But the interesting thing is, when the DHT is going up after I crash I will feel good from 250 units... REALLY good at this higher range, EVEN MORE GOOD then at 50-75 units. This takes nearly 10 days for the finasteride to leave the blood. So at 11 days (250 units), 12 days (260 units), 13 days (270 units) I feel cured... but it keeps going up to 300 again and then... BOOM. Back to PFS, back to feeling really bad.

When I'm at 11, 12 and 13 days its hard to figure out what to do, because If i take more finasteride dust I may ruin it, it's too powerful. But I also don't know how to keep the DHT at this 250 range.

 

[PFStinks]

@PFStinks I mean it would be very very hard to lock in DHT into just one range. it is almost impossible, it normally fluctuates.

as I understand you tried the finasteride come off same as Jack17 is doing and were doing this for a long time now. Like what a year?

So when you come off fin you still crash, right?

 

[Helen]

@PFStinks Yes, I understand you . finasteride, acts like progesterone and inhibits 3beta hsd. 3beta hsd is what converts DHT into 3b -adiol( estrogen)

So if you take a little finasteride, then you lower your 3 beta hsd and DHT, so the ratio of 3a- adiol to 3b-adiol goes in favor of 3a- adiol but the level of DHT is still ok.

And if you inhibit DHT too much with the higher dosages, you simply have low DHT and higher estrogen. Estrogen is higher than DHT.

 

[Helen]

@PFStinks actually with Dutasteride it is easier to control the levels, since it is very long lasting. so you don't have to dose it too often.

You take it and it has 5 weeks half life.

and basically if you take very little amount, this little amount will go from 50 to 250 within weeks like 3 weeks.

and you should feel good during this time.

Then you dose again.

it is much harder with finasteride, since you take it, and it drops and rises fast.

With Duta it rises really slow. and then you dose it again and it rises really slow

So you could be in a sweet spot for ever if you dose it correctly.

 

[joekool]

Hey @PFStinks , definitely interesting testing you've done. A point I think you're going to want to investigate is the androgen receptor. Whether you've up-regulated or down regulated, & with regards to density... This is the missing link to what you're describing because, as we've seen before, if your blood levels of DHT appear normal and the doctor says you're fine, but the receptors aren't receptive to the androgen, we won't feel the DHT but, in fact, likely feel worse symptoms as the hormone is present and byproducts are created. We know taking fin lowers DHT and up regulates androgen receptors, and this gives you 'more bang for your buck' meaning the increased ARs are sucking up the low amount of DHT circulating in your blood.

It is this balance that I think you're searching for... there are plenty of supplements to work on ARs, but you can try L-Carnitine Bi-Tartrate at 2G/day for minimum of 3 weeks to INCREASE androgen receptors, I actually find I feel worse on this but that's because it's sucking up my hormones.

You can go the opposite route and use any type of rosemary is associated with androgen receptor degeneration and reduced androgen expression.. Rosemary extract, rosemary spice, rosemary fragrance, rosemary essential oil... this approach, though I'll say you'd be brave to try, would be to lower the ARs and make the ones left over work harder & up regulate... or lower the ARs back to a pre-fin state.

 

[jinstewart]

It is this balance that I think you're searching for... there are plenty of supplements to work on ARs, but you can try L-Carnitine Bi-Tartrate at 2G/day for minimum of 3 weeks to INCREASE androgen receptors, I actually find I feel worse on this but that's because it's sucking up my hormones.

You can go the opposite route and use any type of rosemary is associated with androgen receptor degeneration and reduced androgen expression.. Rosemary extract, rosemary spice, rosemary fragrance, rosemary essential oil... this approach, though I'll say you'd be brave to try, would be to lower the ARs and make the ones left over work harder & up regulate... or lower the ARs back to a pre-fin state.

I really don't mean to sidetrack what's looking like a VERY exciting topic (I get a 'hopeful' feeling from the to-and-fro above somehow!) But @joekool , do you mean to say you can rebuild destroyed/make completely new androgen receptors with LCLT above? I'm assuming that's LCLT ofc, steer me right if not.

I'm VERY sorry for interrupting everybody - thank you all for doing what you do!

 

[Admiral]

I really don't mean to sidetrack what's looking like a VERY exciting topic (I get a 'hopeful' feeling from the to-and-fro above somehow!) But @joekool , do you mean to say you can rebuild destroyed/make completely new androgen receptors with LCLT above? I'm assuming that's LCLT ofc, steer me right if not.

I'm VERY sorry for interrupting everybody - thank you all for doing what you do!

That caught my eye as well and something I am very interested in seeing I am pretty much hypogonadal.

 

[joekool]

Hey @jinstewart

You never have to worry about sidetracking a thread man! All questions are welcome and sometimes a new thread is best but post anywhere on hackstasis. We’re all on the same team!

The LCLT data is here:

Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine. - PubMed - NCBI

It is my belief what we’re looking to do is rebuild and resensitize our androgen receptors. They are found highest in places like penile skin, traps, and prostate. In fact, not sure if I said this, but when I cycle LCLT, after a few weeks I feel worse. A sign that I’m forming new ARs that are uptaking my body’s test. I don’t have the bloodwork but supposedly it’ll drop your free test levels as it get “up taken”.

Something else that helps, as well for @Admiral is thyroid health including taking iodine. I love this list and this site overall:

25 ways to increase androgen receptors and enhance potency (2018 update)

So this is an avenue I’ve been experimenting with along with hormones. Interested in your ideas and experience too!!

 

[Helen]

@joekool



carnitine was taken by tons of people in PFS. it did not cure anyone


in the study it clearly was mentioned that androgen density was overexpressed. and also in the study it was mentioned, that the more androgen density was overexpressed, the less symptoms people had.
I posted this study with all of this explained. this is why people who increase their AR density feel better.


SO the more AR proteins people had as a compensation for something , the LESS sides they had in PFS according to the study which was posted here many times/


This tells you that there is something with the signaling or there is low androgen levels available with high SHBG levels


This is why when Jack 17 is taking fin, this lowers DHT and frees up testosterone, which we saw go up on his tests


this is why the person in this thread takes anti DHT and feel cured, in that moment, I assume since free test goes up.

 

[jinstewart]

Interested in your ideas and experience too!!

Oh boy, asking for MY ideas is dangerous! But I've PM-ed also.

Based on Helen's idea and NYScientist's recovery I took some sulforaphane - I think NYScientist thought it'd trigger a deacetylation event and de-methylate silenced genes, whereas Helen took it in spades over three days to destroy androgen receptors. Maybe NYScientist (who did the same a month or so after) got better not by inhibiting HDAC but by binning his AR, and by cycling in this way (destroy/rebuild/destroy etc) you'd eventually get somewhere.

I can definitely say I'm tolerating tribulus better now, I just couldn't handle it before.

It's just my pondering, and based on legit nothing but pondering...

Fair warning too, Helen DID mention not to take sulforaphane as it can be dangerous in the wrong body chemistry.

 

[Helen]

@joekool

I don’t have the bloodwork but supposedly it’ll drop your free test levels as it get “up taken”.

carnitine increases LH .

Receptor density goes up 40% on carnitine in a month according to a study.

Since carnitine increases fat metabolism, and allows more protein to be available for the body needs. and thus androgens are allowed since androgens take protein and build muscle out of it. this is why carnitine increases LH. and androgen receptors.


Joe, so if that study is correct and androgen density is already overexpressed, and they noticed that they higher density ( compensation ) was present, the less symptoms people had. I hope you remember this study which I posted.

Makes sense why people who try to increase this density even more feel better. but not cured

 

[joekool]

I can definitely say I'm tolerating tribulus better now, I just couldn't handle it before.

Oh man that's a good sign! What was the difference before and after? Supposedly trib also has some up regulation effects on AR so it really may be related.

@Helen k

@PFStinks I think this is all related, when you drop DHT using your ideas, the ARs up regulate searching for DHT... if you have damaged ARs, as a flood of post fin DHT might do, rebuilding may help. We see the brave @Jack17 & others testing fin, which we know up regulates... I think this is very close to the answer.

 

[jinstewart]

Oh man that's a good sign! What was the difference before and after? Supposedly trib also has some up regulation effects on AR so it

Well, before this I tried 4 tablets (NYScientist recommended a little bit to try out adverse reactions) and I felt nothing noticeable, so ignored Helen's kind advice not to take it (and I am sorry about that, seeing as he took the time to reply) and took some - 13 tabs for two days iirc.

Very shortly after masturbation didn't crash me, so I masturbated a few times a day. Before this I remember masturbation crashing me BAD one Sunday morning, then weeping to Bruschi (sorry) on here that evening. Tribulus also no longer crashed me (the strong-assed Medi Herb one) and the "sour headache" almost totally went, and it's been diminished ever since. I think maybe a little sensitivity went too? Idk. Erection quality maybe suffered a little also (but it's been in something of a decline since the crash) however that's back to "PFS normal" now. Some nocturnals returned too, although weak. Mental sides improved a tad.

I can't say if it persisted as like a FUCKING IDIOT I took something with licorice root in it, didn't sleep, got the 'doom' feeling and started writing suicide notes - thankfully that passed, although I think the amitriptyline I started then added some good.

Nowadays I'm waiting on TEI results, appt with Gillian Hamer (who got Chi started) and in the interim running the tomato and tribulus guaranteed penis enhancement* protocol with tanedout for the lols. I'm fine on the VemoHerb tribulus, and maybe even doing better FOR tribulus for the first time ever.

So yes, in all that supplement salad I think, from being on the inside here, it did mark a change indeed.

CAUTION though I was in "fuck it" mode and Helen has said it's dangerous!!

If I don't get anywhere on the tomato/tribulus combo, think I should try it? Big-assed dose of SFN for two days and then LCTC for two weeks, then two weeks off? Stick a fast in there for 5 days for some autophagy?

[By this point, dear reader, do note I'm not scientifically minded and never do anything I do ever.]

 

[Helen]

@joekool I hope you understand that PFstinks has been doing this for a year almost. Cycling fin, Jack17 started from his example

As he mentioned in this thread, it did not do anything overtime. He just feels good, in the sweet spot. totally cured in the sweet spot of the DHT

So it is either DHT receptors are too much, and when you drop DHT, you open up other ARs where testosterone is.

or by dropping DHT , you simply kill 3b- adiol and lower SBHG and everything works. since free test goes up, which we saw on Jack 17 tests.


Or this has to do with progesterone receptor, and when you take fin, 3beta hsd goes down, and this puts DHT into 3a- adiol

 

[tallglass13]

I like this thread, Very interesting. I highly , very highly doubt I would every use Fin or Dut again, as I feel quit cured, and very stable over the last couple of months. but I like this talk about how to more safely use fin or dut. I personally like SAMe, and it is quick in its effects on me. Makes me have better mood and energy late in the day.
@PFStinks , Are you using fin to get cured, or to grow hair. If its to grow hair, have you seen good results with fin?