Vitamin K..

[tanedout]

Thought I'd start a thread on this as it seems almost certain this is involved somewhere in all this and would be good to discuss..

• Most vitamin K is synthesised from gut bacteria (primarily beneficial e.coli strain I believe). Many people in PFS/PAS etc are missing certain species, so it's possible we don't make enough
• Liver issues that results in decreased bile salt synthesis leads to impaired vitamin K absorption and deficiency. Many people have bile/liver issues
• At least some people have improved (or even recovered?) from eating high amounts of spinach/broccoli. These are some of the highest sources of vitamin K..
• Vitamin K possibly lowers calcium in blood? @Helen - could explain why some of us have issues with calcium
• Mario vitali looked for common factors involved with the genetic defects of people with PFS/PAS etc and vitamin K was a major one

Sometimes I think people who have recovered, and post up their 'recovery regime' have actually recovered mostly through diet without realising it. You could be eating high vitamin K foods like spinach, broccoli, sprouts, and maybe also high zinc foods like beef, and by doing so you correct low vitamin k, and also correct zinc/copper ratio.

I'm going to actively increase vitamin K in my diet and see if i notice anything. I notice I always do well after eating beef steak, and I've previously assumed it was due to the high fat triggering bile release, but high fat foods don't seem as effective - but I see beef is one of the few foods that is high zinc, but not high copper (look at the lists of high zinc foods like nuts, and almost all are also very high copper). I also do badly after eating dark chocolate (very high copper [although also some zinc])

Anyone on here tried the spinach diet? (which I see is also high copper compared to zinc - makes me wonder if spinach and beef steak would be good - lots of vitamin k, zinc in beef to balance out the copper)

Vitamin K

 

[RebelWithACause]

Yea I ate spinach with every meal for a few months. Plus a lot of beef.

I do better on chocolate lol. So as you can see there are two cases at least in PFS.

Accutane guys do better on zinc maybe. If you look at the video by Deep Healing Space.

 

[Helen]

Thought I'd start a thread on this as it seems almost certain this is involved somewhere in all this and would be good to discuss..

• Most vitamin K is synthesised from gut bacteria (primarily beneficial e.coli strain I believe). Many people in PFS/PAS etc are missing certain species, so it's possible we don't make enough
• Liver issues that results in decreased bile salt synthesis leads to impaired vitamin K absorption and deficiency. Many people have bile/liver issues
• At least some people have improved (or even recovered?) from eating high amounts of spinach/broccoli. These are some of the highest sources of vitamin K..
• Vitamin K possibly lowers calcium in blood? @Helen - could explain why some of us have issues with calcium

Sometimes I think people who have recovered, and post up their 'recovery regime' have actually recovered mostly through diet without realising it. You could be eating high vitamin K foods like spinach, broccoli, sprouts, and maybe also high zinc foods like beef, and by doing so you correct low vitamin k, and also correct zinc/copper ratio.

I'm going to actively increase vitamin K in my diet and see if i notice anything. I notice I always do well after eating beef steak, and I've previously assumed it was due to the high fat triggering bile release, but high fat foods don't seem as effective - but I see beef is one of the few foods that is high zinc, but not high copper (look at the lists of high zinc foods like nuts, and almost all are also very high copper). I also do badly after eating dark chocolate (very high copper [although also some zinc])

Anyone on here tried the spinach diet? (which I see is also high copper compared to zinc - makes me wonder if spinach and beef steak would be good - lots of vitamin k, zinc in beef to balance out the copper)

Vitamin K

Search my posts, I wrote about this a lot

 

[tanedout]

Yea I ate spinach with every meal for a few months. Plus a lot of beef.

I do better on chocolate lol. So as you can see there are two cases at least in PFS.

Accutane guys do better on zinc maybe. If you look at the video by Deep Healing Space.

Maybe, I remember Helen saying the mechanism of accutane would deplete zinc a lot. One very interesting symptom of zinc deficiency that I only found fairly recently is night blindness, and a lot of people (me included) lost night vision after accutane. Also apparently it results in high histamine, and again something I have issues with (have to take daosin sups when really bad).

Zinc deficiency also results in a poor sense of smell and taste. Usually my sense of smell of poor, but sometimes without know what has improved it, I can smell really well. Again it could be zinc from eating beef steak. I need to trial this.

You are maybe the opposite then, with low copper?

 

[joekool]

@tanedout

Coincidentally I’m researching two things and one is right what you’re describing but perhaps via a different reason.

You’ll def want mk7 version and taken it with d3. But I’ll start a different thread on my new research and hope to get your ideas too.

 

[Helen]

@tanedout https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/pfs-healing-link.1625/#post-52514

Explains a lot about calcium

 

[RebelWithACause]

Maybe, I remember Helen saying the mechanism of accutane would deplete zinc a lot. One very interesting symptom of zinc deficiency that I only found fairly recently is night blindness, and a lot of people (me included) lost night vision after accutane. Also apparently it results in high histamine, and again something I have issues with (have to take daosin sups when really bad).

Zinc deficiency also results in a poor sense of smell and taste. Usually my sense of smell of poor, but sometimes without know what has improved it, I can smell really well. Again it could be zinc from eating beef steak. I need to trial this.

You are maybe the opposite then, with low copper?

Dunno I felt bad on zinc (I did not take just zinc tho) and I ate a lot of zinc foods like eggs, red meat. Made me feel worse in the end. Probably pushed my Na/K ratio even lower.

But for accutane it seems zinc is important or can play a role. Not sure if all accutane people are the same. But Lewis from DHS explained some stuff. Although he is a practitioner and not biochemist.

this was that vid

I am taking a ton of copper now (w/ other shit) had a week where I felt pretty good (not normal but good mood and even libido). Now my libido is nothing. Kinda feels how my libido was on finasteride. Limp noodle and no interest in women(0%). I dream of sex in the night and the dreams are vivid w/ a boner but I wake up with limp noodle and it is like that all day.
TEI is just a rollercoaster. Sometimes it is maddening.

 

[Helen]

Maybe, I remember Helen saying the mechanism of accutane would deplete zinc a lot. One very interesting symptom of zinc deficiency that I only found fairly recently is night blindness, and a lot of people (me included) lost night vision after accutane. Also apparently it results in high histamine, and again something I have issues with (have to take daosin sups when really bad).

Zinc deficiency also results in a poor sense of smell and taste. Usually my sense of smell of poor, but sometimes without know what has improved it, I can smell really well. Again it could be zinc from eating beef steak. I need to trial this.

You are maybe the opposite then, with low copper?

According to tests we see low SAME and high SAH in PFS people.

I am not sure if SAH is getting converted further or not.

but if Sam-E is not wanted by the body , it inhibits 5 mthfr which then lowers your tetrafolate. which will see on those tests

Tetrafolate is what is needed to break down histidine into glutamic acid, thus if it is low. then histidine accumulates( higher histamine)

Which we saw in Slow oxidizers. on barbaar tests and talkingant test


So the problem is SAH stops methylation.

SAH converts further into homocysteine with NAD based enzyme.

So we dont' know what homosysteine levels are on those blood tests

but if the problem is with NAD, then problems stems from too high need for progesterone, since cell is calcified, or full of copper.


Accutane, raises Ceruloplasmin , many fold. and this might carry copper into the cell.

Which then constantly lowers dopamine into noradrenaline, raising prolactin, which retains calcium

Another possibility is high calcium since vitamin K is low.

 

[tanedout]

According to tests we see low SAME and high SAH in PFS people.

I am not sure if SAH is getting converted further or not.

but if Sam-E is not wanted by the body , it inhibits 5 mthfr which then lowers your tetrafolate. which will see on those tests

Tetrafolate is what is needed to break down histidine into glutamic acid, thus if it is low. then histidine accumulates( higher histamine)

Which we saw in Slow oxidizers. on barbaar tests and talkingant test


So the problem is SAH stops methylation.

SAH converts further into homocysteine with NAD based enzyme.

So we dont' know what homosysteine levels are on those blood tests

but if the problem is with NAD, then problems stems from too high need for progesterone, since cell is calcified, or full of copper.


Accutane, raises Ceruloplasmin , many fold. and this might carry copper into the cell.

Which then constantly lowers dopamine into noradrenaline, raising prolactin, which retains calcium

Another possibility is high calcium since vitamin K is low.

Would be interesting to see some people who've had homecystine levels checked. I remember reading it was speculated to be high post accutane, but I remember at least one person getting it tested on an accutane forum, and the levels were normal, but would be good to see a larger sample. I've tried to get my doctor to run this test before, but they saw it as irrelevant unfortunately

 

[tanedout]

This is the work Mario Vitali did which found vitamin k to be a common factor in people with PFS, CFS etc. He takes vitamin k as part of his stack to feel 'cured'.

Machine Learning-assisted Research on CFS

 

[Helen]

Would be interesting to see some people who've had homecystine levels checked. I remember reading it was speculated to be high post accutane, but I remember at least one person getting it tested on an accutane forum, and the levels were normal, but would be good to see a larger sample. I've tried to get my doctor to run this test before, but they saw it as irrelevant unfortunately

accutane since it is active form of vitamin A inhibits bile production.

And raises ceruloplasmin.

 

[Helen]

This is the work Mario Vitali did which found vitamin k to be a common factor in people with PFS, CFS etc. He takes vitamin k as part of his stack to feel 'cured'.

Machine Learning-assisted Research on CFS

Vitamin K disregulation and?

 

[Helen]

@tanedout weren't you the one who took d3 plus k and crashed hard with breathing problems.

remember this thread? https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/...taking-vitamin-k-and-d.1122/page-2#post-32817

 

[brix]

I like vit k2. I have high blood calcium so it probably helps balance it. Always feel more androgenic; stronger jaw, more vascular, etc...
Also keeps my teeth feeling very clean.

 

[tanedout]

@tanedout weren't you the one who took d3 plus k and crashed hard with breathing problems.

remember this thread? https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/...taking-vitamin-k-and-d.1122/page-2#post-32817

I was taking a fairly high dose d3 for a long period (and felt great on it to be honest), but ended up getting chest pains. I now avoid d3 and calcium. Seems to have got better as a result. I wasn't taking vitamin k with it, except for a brief period. I think I should have been taking k with the d3 all along most likely.

Someone else had a similar issue, I think he may have overdone the d3 as well.

Also worth noting my hair test went from a Fast 4 to a Slow 1 after I'd stopped the d3 and avoided calcium for at least 2 months prior to the second test. I think the d3 without k made me retain loads of calcium potentially

https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/2nd-tei-hair-analysis-after-2-months-of-avoiding-calcium.1381/

 

[Helen]

@tanedout @joekool people on propecia forum tested their vitamin D levels and their levels were low in almost everyone.
But when they tested 1.25D the active vitamin D, then in some tested people it was very high.

As I said that there is calcium retained by mistake. just like in autoimmune deceases, VDR receptor dysregulation can easily displace thyroid hormones, and androgens

since potassium can't enter the cell and cysteine is not getting to. since SAH is not converted further,

This is why thyroid hormones help some people to get rid off all PFS symptoms.

This is as example
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/ProalAnnals2009Preprint.pdf


and that is why usually breakdown of androgens is stopped by vit D active American Urological Association

 

[tanedout]

@tanedout @joekool people on propecia forum tested their vitamin D levels and their levels were low in almost everyone.
But when they tested 1.25D the active vitamin D, then in some tested people it was very high.

As I said that there is calcium retained by mistake. just like in autoimmune deceases, VDR receptor dysregulation can easily displace thyroid hormones, and androgens

since potassium can't enter the cell and cysteine is not getting to. since SAH is not converted further,

This is why thyroid hormones help some people to get rid off all PFS symptoms.

This is as example
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/ProalAnnals2009Preprint.pdf


and that is why usually breakdown of androgens is stopped by vit D active American Urological Association

I'm thinking MSM could help here to reduce retained calcium? (believe it's a pre-cursor to SAM-e as well, so it might raise SAM-e - maybe that's why it helps)

MSM is a calcium phosphate dissolver in that it breaks up the unhealthy calcium deposits in the body that are causative factors in many degenerativediseases.

The Top 5 Health Benefits of MSM for Pain, Skin and Longevity - DrJockers.com

On that '8 tips for accutane' video the guy was taking MSM along with TUDCA etc in his recovery. Might be factor why it helped.

While I was supplanting vitamin D I got it tested and it was mid range, but it was surprising seeing as I'd been taking a fairly high dose for some time, so it would probably have been low otherwise. Not sure if vitamin K levels can be tested, presumably they can?

 

[Helen]

@tanedout The Vitamin D and Vitamin K2 Connection: Understanding the Mechanisms, What to Test, and How Much D3 and K2 to Take

 

[tanedout]

@tanedout The Vitamin D and Vitamin K2 Connection: Understanding the Mechanisms, What to Test, and How Much D3 and K2 to Take

That's really interesting. Explains well the link between D3 and K2. This is probably why a lot of people with PFS end up with heart issues - due to calcium being retained in tissue, probably as a result of not enough K2, which is probably a result of them not being able to synthesis it properly due to missing beneficial gut bacteria strains.

I'm going to try and increase my vitamin K intake, but I'll probably need to supplement with some K2 as vegetables only contain K1 which gut bacteria converts to K2, but that probably isn't happening

Bacteria in the gut flora can also convert K1 into vitamin K2 (menaquinone).

Vitamin K - Wikipedia

People following the CD protocol should probably include K2 along with the daily vitamin D really

 

[tanedout]

@Helen - this is interesting actually, it seems it's possible to work out whether you need more D3 or K2 based on the blood tests for total and active vitamin D levels. This would be very interesting to know if anyone has had these tested? It seems that is a way of testing vitamin K levels basically

The higher the 1,25 OH vitamin D (active; calcitriol), the more critical it is that you supply the body with vitamin K2

Scenario's at the bottom of this link. My guess is a lot of people with PAS/PFS would come back with very high 1,25 (active), indicating the need for more K2 (because they cannot make it) - in fact this is exactly the result you mention above? Some PFS guys tested very high for 1,25 vitamin D?

The Vitamin D and Vitamin K2 Connection: Understanding the Mechanisms, What to Test, and How Much D3 and K2 to Take

Of 'regular' food sources I eat (i.e. not weird stuff like natto), beef is definitely my main (probably only) source of K2. So maybe that's why I feel better after eating beef? K2 not zinc as mentioned in the first post?

Vitamin K2 Foods: 5 Sources of Vitamin K2 (Menaquinone)