ZINC FINGER THEORY DISCUSSION for PFS - 2 cases

[Aleksandr]

@gbolduev this is the guy you said is taking the full protocol you are talking about? Where is his cysteine?

Full protocol from first page is:

1) histidine + serine + aspartic acid
2) essential aminos + electrolyte supplement
3) pine pollen powder (mineral supplement) + b vitamins in small doses

Is that the full protocol? I tried to outline it many pages back, but my outline had a lot more items.

Gbold just said not to take it since its theoretical at this point. I understand how we arrived at different protocols from reading gbolds post though - he never really clarified the complete protocol. Not even what to take for the "complete" zinc finger, but he keeps inferring that he has.

Its like some days he's happy with us experimenting the next day he's chastising us saying not doing the whole thing will cause cancer. Whatever the 'whole thing' is.

 

[MNK99]

So for "case one" and "case two" types of PFS -- it would be whether zinc finger has been upregulated or downregulated?
Combining oxidation type (slow or fast), aren't there then 4 cases? And really more. Sorry if this is a silly question.
Just taking the entire list, accounts for any case?

 

[Scenes]

Is that the full protocol? I tried to outline it many pages back, but my outline had a lot more items.

Gbold just said not to take it since its theoretical at this point. I understand how we arrived at different protocols from reading gbolds post though - he never really clarified the complete protocol. Not even what to take for the "complete" zinc finger, but he keeps inferring that he has.

Its like some days he's happy with us experimenting the next day he's chastising us saying not doing the whole thing will cause cancer. Whatever the 'whole thing' is.

That covers everything doesn’t it? I summarised from the bottom part of his long opening post. It doesn’t have zinc and it doesn’t have cysteine, but all the precursors are there I think. Increase folate with kale and spinach or supplement if you want.

Alternatively, you can just take zinc cysteine histidine, but it may not stick long term. He said those plus copper has been used successfully for hair.

I agree it’s not clearly outlined, that’s why I wrote those 3 points above - would be ideal if he gave it the tick of approval.

Also, that SEVENS guy who gbold says is doing the full protocol (see the post I tagged earlier), he is taking aspartic acid and serine, but histidine is just part of an amino acid blend. Seems to have been approved by gbold though.

Anyway, barring serine and histidine, it’s all relatively easy to get your hands on and try. I think the key is to get your stomach acid going with histidine serine aspartic acid, then it’s just adding aminos and minerals and folate and low dose b vitamins.

 

[Canari]

@gbolduev Is bad digestion the ONLY cause of unbalanced amino-acids? If we eat animal proteins and have enough stomach acid, is it still possible to lack some amino-acids?

Is there a common point with minerals, having ratios, I mean is it possible that our bodies down regulate or up regulate some amino acids?

 

[mattyb]

So true, some people are trying to get balanced while sitting on their behind all day long. Hypodynamia is killing them, and they have to take hormones, drugs, etc . Humans need to hunt and run etc, we can't sit on a chair like a praying mantis on a green leaf.

Just saw this, thought it was suitable.

 

[Helen]

Filaggrin - Wikipedia

Feeding filaggrin: effects of L-histidine supplementation in atopic de | CCID

For those with dry skin and eczema


Here is the patent. Patent US20100331235 - Histidine and/or Histidine Derivative for the Treatment of Inflammatory Skin Diseases

@Nina

 

[TubZy]

Filaggrin - Wikipedia

Feeding filaggrin: effects of L-histidine supplementation in atopic de | CCID

For those with dry skin and eczema


Here is the patent. Patent US20100331235 - Histidine and/or Histidine Derivative for the Treatment of Inflammatory Skin Diseases

Can you clarify the zinc issue or no? In your initial post you don't mention to supplement with zinc but you say follow Sevens who is taking zinc separately (not in brewers yeast), please clarify. Zinc screws people up for the worse so are you saying push through that?

 

[Helen]

Can you clarify the zinc issue or no? In your initial post you don't mention to supplement with zinc but you say follow Sevens who is taking zinc separately (not in brewers yeast), please clarify. Zinc screws people up for the worse so are you saying push through that?

Man, you are pretending like I know this protocol and I have experience with it. I dont know.

This is not a protocol. If you are doing good, why would you change anything. It does not have any minerals in it how I outlined it, it has natural foods like pine pollen bee pollen, etc.

I outlined hair protocols, with zinc copper cysteine and histidine. that I found patents for

Also copper glycine and histidine another patented hair treatment.

Some people are trying different routes.

The Sevens guy is taking everything. and he seems not to react to any copper or zinc.


Also don't forget we don't know if this is regulatory or not. May be zinc finger is upregulated , or downregulated

There are different people as we know in these imbalances.

Will this stick if we don't take anything? I don't know either. that is why we are trying.

 

[snowball]

Good post!
@gbolduev @TubZy
Do you think taking one of the supplements outlined below (has all aminos- histidine, cysteine..) with zinc, copper and folate should complete the protocol?

More context: I was initially thinking of starting with l-cysteine however had low b12 and was taking vitamins last year to reduce homo-cysteine (i.e., b12 and folate). For that reason, I don’t want to take l-cysteine on it’s own but rather keep a “balance”.

These look like interesting products, should be available to anyone in North America and abroad even:

Source Naturals, Amino Day, 1,000 mg, 120 Tablets

Source Naturals, Amino Athlete, 1000 mg, 100 Tablets

I think the first one may be better for our purposes, I could be wrong, wish we could see the dosages.

I don't like that they are prop blends though, so we can't see the exact dosages.

I wonder if it would be best to buy and use a product like these above, alongside with the extra Histidine, etc, to avoid any imbalances (and fix any that we may not know about).

 

[Helen]

The protocol is outlined in the first post. I have no idea why people don't see it. It says exactly what to take and exactly what to eat.

But also above the protocol, there are patented treatments that I found for hairloss and libido.

Not sure why all this is not clear

But of course you can experiment with it and see what balance makes you feel better since no one tried this protocol. And we don't know the balance. I just found the involvement of histidine and cysteine in this so we are trying.

 

[TubZy]

The protocol is outlined in the first post. I have no idea why people don't see it. It says exactly what to take and exactly what to eat.

But also above the protocol, there are patented treatments that I found for hairloss and libido.

Not sure why all this is not clear

But of course you can experiment with it and see what balance makes you feel better since no one tried this protocol. And we don't know the balance. I just found the involvement of histidine and cysteine in this so we are trying.

It caused confusion (even to me) when you switched to saying the ghetto protocol I listed wasn't right and to follow SEVENS. Because the protocol I listed was almost identical to SEVENS' (and your original post) except the zinc part which he was supplementing and I wasn't since zinc makes me and others like @Scenes feel like crap. But I know what you are saying and believe me I know it is experimental, I'm not holding you to anything at all.

I know the bottom line you are looking for is balance and of course a lot of the PFS people that improve with high libido get their traditional scalp itch back with increased shedding again, which you said is still not considered "balanced" since there could still be some imbalance since you are shedding hair.

 

[snowball]

Sorry, missed that on page 1. Protocol is:
1. Histidine, serine, Aspartic acid
2. Amino acids and electrolyte supplement or enzyme
3. pine pollen or bee pollen and B vitamins

And then...
“So to finish this up, may be we can try to increase zinc finger, with magnesium b6, b2, b3, Fоlate, phosphorus, histidine, cysteine. selenium And at the same time feed potassium and may be some copper. And do something for phosphorus”

The protocol is outlined in the first post. I have no idea why people don't see it. It says exactly what to take and exactly what to eat.

But also above the protocol, there are patented treatments that I found for hairloss and libido.

Not sure why all this is not clear

But of course you can experiment with it and see what balance makes you feel better since no one tried this protocol. And we don't know the balance. I just found the involvement of histidine and cysteine in this so we are trying.

 

[wuf]

Maybe I am wrong but I guess the simpliest way to go and start, could be the one outlined by @TubZy who had great improvements.
That could be the first trial in my opinion, then trying to add some more stuff to it if results are not coming.
That's the way I would go.

 

[Aleksandr]

That covers everything doesn’t it? I summarised from the bottom part of his long opening post. It doesn’t have zinc and it doesn’t have cysteine, but all the precursors are there I think. Increase folate with kale and spinach or supplement if you want.

Alternatively, you can just take zinc cysteine histidine, but it may not stick long term. He said those plus copper has been used successfully for hair.

I agree it’s not clearly outlined, that’s why I wrote those 3 points above - would be ideal if he gave it the tick of approval.

Also, that SEVENS guy who gbold says is doing the full protocol (see the post I tagged earlier), he is taking aspartic acid and serine, but histidine is just part of an amino acid blend. Seems to have been approved by gbold though.

Anyway, barring serine and histidine, it’s all relatively easy to get your hands on and try. I think the key is to get your stomach acid going with histidine serine aspartic acid, then it’s just adding aminos and minerals and folate and low dose b vitamins.

Im sure it doesnt.

He says "Zinc finger is zinc with cysteine, and histidine. For cysteine you need b6 ,plus magnesium plus serine. and methylation. For histidine you need phospforus and b2 and nad. For histidine is not that easy , there is a pathway in the body to synthesis it, but it requires 8 reactions with TONS OF atp, B2 , b3,folate, phosphorus, all the limiting things in usually sick individual."

So zinc, histidine, cystine,b6,mg,serine,methylation (Bvits?),phosphorous,b2,nad,b3,folate

Then he talks about enzymes, mineral supps...its not clear at all. I dont know why he keeps saying its clear.

 

[Nina]

Cysteine levels are elevated in MS. So the deficiency in CDO seems to be the culpit. It has to do either with low histidine OR low iron delivery.

Also it could be from carnosinase deficiency, and you know what is needed for that? MANGANESE. Without manganese I think histidine levels will be low.

May be this is the culpit for MS and iron toxicity is the cause. In this case Chlorides and salt, will be really bad for people with MS. Since chloride is anti Manganese. I remember I had people allergic to sea water. It caused eczema which is histidine deficiency. After adding Manganese it was gone.


It would be interesting to see beta alanine and histidine urine levels in MS.


I guess another possibility would be manganese toxicity and iron deficiency. So I think it is histidine iron manganese balance which should be looked in for MS

Manganese, copper, and zinc in cerebrospinal fluid from patients with multiple sclerosis

Gbol can u explain more about the connection to eczema? I had eczema from age 2 to maybe 10. My diet was severly protein deficient at the time. Literally never ate any meat or any type of protein besides glass of milk in the morning so very deficient in histidine i suppose.

 

[Scenes]

Im sure it doesnt.

He says "Zinc finger is zinc with cysteine, and histidine. For cysteine you need b6 ,plus magnesium plus serine. and methylation. For histidine you need phospforus and b2 and nad. For histidine is not that easy , there is a pathway in the body to synthesis it, but it requires 8 reactions with TONS OF atp, B2 , b3,folate, phosphorus, all the limiting things in usually sick individual."

So zinc, histidine, cystine,b6,mg,serine,methylation (Bvits?),phosphorous,b2,nad,b3,folate

Then he talks about enzymes, mineral supps...its not clear at all. I dont know why he keeps saying its clear.

Agreeing it’s not clearly written but the end of the opening post lays it out step by step and the summary I posted follows that.

All the things you mentioned just here to be missing are there in the amino supp or the mineral supp or the brewers yeast. The b vits includes b6, b3 (nad), methylation etc.

Must be important to get histidine, serine and aspartic acid going first before just assuming we can eat meat and be balanced.

Also remember that he’s giving us things to trial and doesn’t know exactly how it will play out. He ‘chastises’ when we’re way off or picking and choosing parts. Only taking copper and cysteine (like me) was not at all what he recommended. Cysteine and histidine alone or cys hist cu zn are not the full protocol, so anyone following them is just playing with bits and pieces of it.

 

[Canari]

Hey guys! I am the one who is going to "chastise" you lol!
Sub-forums

This is a link to the sub-forums thread, and I proposed some simple reorganisation to clearly separate theory, then suggested protocols when more clear, then trial and feedback. You do not want newcomers to be lost in gazilions pages and try something that will make then even worse! You would also want to differenciate protocols for the same condition but for different persons, according to their metabolism and mineral and pH state.

So please if you can comment so that we can decide if my proposition is helpful, and I think it is. Loosing some time to make it easier afterward seems to me quite productive and a gain of time in the end! Hope so! Havr a good day, sunny here!

 

[JonnyCraig]

Analysis of Serum Zinc and Copper Concentrations in Hair Loss

The exact mechanism of how zinc affects hair loss has not been found so far, although zinc-related metalloenzymes may have the potential to regulate hair growth. Zinc is a component of zinc finger motifs for many transcription factors, which regulate hair growth through hedgehog signaling, and is a catagen inhibitor via its inhibitory action on apoptosis-related endonucleases17-19. Paus et al.20 reported that zinc is a potent dose-dependent immunomodulator of hair follicles. It is also a potent inhibitor of hair follicle regression and accelerates hair follicle recovery2. Therefore, zinc metalloenzymes may be necessary for hair growth rather than the components of hair itself. Many other studies have also verified the correlation between serum zinc concentration and hair loss4, 11-14.

Of the hair loss groups, the ratio of the patients with low serum zinc concentration was significantly lower in the AA and TE groups than in the control group. It seems that the serum zinc concentration of the two groups affected the pathogenesis characteristic of hair loss, which has a fast onset. In the FPHL and MPHL groups, the serum zinc concentration was lower than in the control group, but it was in the normal serum zinc range. In addition, the ratio of the patients with low serum zinc concentration was not statistically significant. This result can be attributed to the fact that the abrupt zinc deficiency in the AA and TE, where the onset is acute, affected the pathogenesis, in contrast to the pattern hair loss, which slowly develops by hormonal changes such as the aging process. Since the serum copper concentration did not show any significant difference in the value and the patient ratio with the control group in all 4 groups, it is considered that there is no direct relationship between serum copper concentration and hair loss, which is consistent with other studies. Further studies are needed4, 6, 11-14.

Diet and hair loss: effects of nutrient deficiency and supplement use

A study of 312 patients with AA, male pattern hair loss (MPHL), FPHL, or TE showed that all groups had statistically lower zinc concentrations as compared to 30 healthy controls [38]. In patients with AA and low serum zinc levels, supplementation has been shown to have therapeutic effects [39].

However, there is currently limited information on the effects of zinc supplementation on hair growth in those without documented deficiency. One report described a single patient with alopecia, without clear deficiency, who experienced improvement following oral zinc therapy [40].


I think, in general... based on what we know from the studies... it may be wise to supplement with both low-dose zinc and copper (taken at different times, i.e morning/night). Something like 20mg zinc morning, 2mg copper night, added with all the other stuff.. assuming you can tolerate zinc/copper.


Maybe interesting, especially for TuBzy who cannot tolerate Zinc:

Histidine Protects Against Zinc and Nickel Toxicity in Caenorhabditis elegans

Histidine chelates zinc and protects against zinc toxicity

Dietary histidine promotes zinc tolerance

"These results suggest the model that elevated histidine chelates zinc and thereby reduces zinc toxicity. Supporting this hypothesis, we demonstrated that dietary histidine promotes zinc tolerance."

"

 

[JonnyCraig]

Laboratory Evaluations for Integrative and Functional Medicine



Cysteine, Histidine, Methionine important for zinc absorption.


The therapeutic effect and the changed serum zinc level after zinc supplementation in alopecia areata patients who had a low serum zinc level. - PubMed - NCBI

AA...but still:

"CONCLUSION:
Zinc supplementation needs to be given to the alopecia areata patients who have a low serum zinc level. We suggest that zinc supplementation could become an adjuvant therapy for the alopecia areata patients with a low serum zinc level and for whom the traditional therapeutic methods have been unsuccessful."



Analysis of Serum Zinc and Copper Concentrations in Hair Loss

I'm almost certain this was already posted here, but again, just highlighting the importance of Zinc.

Zinc levels significantly lower in ALL hair loss groups, that includes MPHL, TE, AA, FPHL!

"RESULTS
Ninety-four patients with AA (group 1) and 84 patients with MPHL (group 2) were identified, and 77 patients were diagnosed with FPHL (group 3) and 47 patients were diagnosed with TE (group 4). The mean ages of the patient group and control group were 36.61±13.81 and 33.50±10.50, respectively, and other demographic data are described in Table 1. In the normal control group, the mean serum zinc was 97.94±21.05 µg/dl, and the mean serum copper was 96.29±28.84 µg/dl. In all the hair loss patients, the mean serum zinc was 84.33±22.88, which was significantly lower than that of the control group (p=0.002), whereas the serum copper was 96.44±22.62, which was not significantly different (p=0.975)."

What's really interesting is only in the MPHL group was both zinc AND copper lowered.. in the others groups, copper is a bit higher than the control group.

If this isn't enough reason for someone to try and supplement both zinc/copper, not sure what is..

 

[mattyb]

If I was going to experiment with this, I would start with histidine, cysteine and selenium while making sure everything else is at RDA levels in the diet (w/ trace minerals in good quantity). After week 3, a person could experiment with zinc and start increasing overall protein intake to see how they react. B-complex every now and then might not be a horrible idea either. Then titrate the supplements down and see if the changes stick.

I would not go the route of trying to support endogenous histidine/cysteine formation at first honestly, it is too complex and energy intensive - the list of working co-factors is too long. I would wait for that to come back online on it's own by restoring physiological function, digestion, and supplying proper nutrients (everything at RDA levels). I don't see why over time it wouldn't start up on it's own. Serine and aspartic acid are synthesized much more easily. Making sure metabolism and NAD+ is high enough will guarantee their synthesis since their biosynthesis is mostly reliant on leftovers from metabolic processes. And it's important to make sure metabolism is going, because these are reversible reactions. So oxoloacetate, ketoglutarate, NAD+ need to be kept high. Exercise and calorie deficit can help raise these.

I think consuming RDA levels of most vitamins/minerals while not consuming excess calories (or even in slight calorie deficit) is integral. It's very low hanging fruit, if a person hasn't tried that yet I think it's a great start. It will facilitate most therapies IMO.