cnb30
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 192
Yes essentially. However the general long term trend is still downwards I’m talking short term
Accutane and Sexual Dysfunction
- Thread starter Flynn
- Start date
Dude you're test levels will recover. Have you been using HCG? to restart test production?
I don't advise going back on heavy steroids yet, even if you are desperate. You will really **** yourself. Believe me you don't want to be reliant on exogenous hormones for life. 8 months is a long time but its not that long. There are bodybuilders who go on longer and heavier cycles who recover, just takes patience. Plus you're balls will shrink, number two it will cost you a lot of money and you will likely have serious health issues in the future such as heart problems. Even if you're determined to go on steroids and they actually do improve libido. A much wiser option would be to cycle them throughout the year once you get natural test back online. Once you do this, then it may be reasonable to do short cycles of say 6-8 weeks at a time, have a break, then repeat. In this way, you could enjoy a normal libido for a large proportion of the year without seriously jeopardising your health.
It would be interesting to see if TRT does bring your libido back to normal again though. You seem to be one of the only people that this has worked for.
cnb30
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 192
Only good relative to a few weeks earlier. Still much worse than say two years ago.
- Messages
- 1
You really need to explain clearly what your situation is.
What percentage is your libido when it is at it's best and when it is at it's worst?
How often etc.
Do you also have ED?
cnb30
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 192
I guess you could say I have ed but I’m still not 100% sure what I’d call it. Currently, my Libido is probably 10% of what it used to be (so pretty bad shape). Lastly, (I thought I already mentioned) it seems to be about a 2 week cycle.
Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
All my blood tests were posted. There's a link for the spermogram, too.
The urologist said it's OK because that's what the semen analysis revealed:
1. Volume
How many milliliters were produced? Normal is between 1.5 – 5 mL, or between ¼ – 1 teaspoon. Low volumes can indicate a blockage or dysfunction in the seminal vesicles or prostate.
My result: 3.0
2. Concentration
How many million sperm per milliliter were produced? The normal is approximately 15-20 million or higher. Lower numbers may indicate that sperm is being blocked from coming out, or that the testicles are not producing sperm they way they should.
My result: 49.7
Among other things... I believe the only thing in that result that is not explained is "viscosity increased". The other results seem to indicate there's nothing wrong in this area. I'll visit the urologist again to a) ask if everything is OK with these results, and b) to clarify if the way I did the procedure in the room was adequate and couldn't alter the results. I remember I did everything correctly and didn't touch the inside of the bottle (which a link says would contaminate it), but you never know.
*********
And for the record the blood test on ZINC came today. And this was the result:
111,2 mcg/dL MCG/DL
Lab ranges: 70,0 - 120,0 MCG/DL
So we can rule this one out, too.
Reason to test this one:
******
Zinc and hypogonadism
******
Zinc is an essential dietary mineral. You need zinc for your immune system to function properly and for cell division. Zinc helps enzymes break down food and other nutrients. It also plays an important role in enzymes that build proteins. It can be found in certain foods, but it’s also available in supplements and even certain cold medications.
Having a zinc deficiency can lead to low testosterone. Exactly why a lack of zinc impacts testosterone levels isn’t fully understood. The mineral may affect the cells in the testes that produce testosterone.
******
Also:
>>>>>>>> Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults:
>>>>>>>> Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI
"Low testosterone is commonly associated with zinc deficiencies as androgen receptors are often altered in zinc deficient individuals. Adding zinc to the diet has been shown in various studies to increase levels of luteinizing hormone, a pituitary hormone that stimulates testosterone production. Studies have also shown zinc to be a strong aromatase inhibitor, which can block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen."
Suggested Intake: 30 mg daily"
************
And the ones that came normal: abdominal ultrassound and the MRI scan (I forgot to post the links):
Diego-RM-da-Sela-Turcica-23-10-2017.pdf
Diego-Ultrassom-de-abdomen-total-4-10-2017.pdf
ISOs from the CD-ROMs with images from both:
Diego-RM-da-Sela-Turcica-23-10-2017.iso
Diego-Ultrassom-de-abdomen-total-4-10-2017.iso
Like I said in previous posts it was reported (see the Wikipedia article ACCUTANE) that the treatment leads to "lower testostone levels". If that's the case then we need to do all sorts of tests to rule other causes.
The only blood tests I still wonder if are necessary or not at this point are:
- Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)
- E2, which measures the amount of estradiol, a form of estrogen
- DHEA-S (dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate)
- Progesterone
- IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor-1)
The more data we have about the side effects of this poison, the better.
Sexual complications in people treated with Accutane | RxISK
*******
About high prolactin: I'll check with a nutritionist the supplementation with vitamin B-6. That ebook from Dr. Pezzi explains the following about it:
*******
Accutane: what to do to solve the loss of libido:
- Try relatively high-dose supplemental vitamin B 6 (but avoid excessive doses that may induce a peripheral neuropathy; see the vitamin B 6 section for more information).
*******
Now, what about vitamin B-6? Pay attention to this part:
*******
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
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Vitamin B 6 : High doses of vitamin B 6 can improve libido by reducing prolactin secretion in both sexes. B 6 can also improve the quality and intensity of sexual pleasure in some people who have poor genital sensation. An average dose for these applications is 25 mg three times daily. Vitamin B 6 is excreted soon after absorption, so it is preferable to take a smaller dose of B 6 three times daily rather than one large dose. Taking too much B 6 can cause insomnia and overly vivid dream recall, so if those side effects develop you should reduce your dose or at least reduce your supplementary intake later in the day.
Doses over 200 mg daily can result in neurological disorders if taken for several months. These disorders include a loss of position and vibration sense in the legs, and sensory ataxia (incoordination due to loss of proprioception, which is joint position sensation) which worsens when the eyes are closed. Recovery from this condition is slow and may be incomplete, so it is important to avoid potentially toxic levels of B 6 . If you take fairly high amounts of B 6 , you and your doctor should be on the lookout for any early signs of toxicity.
In males, B 6 supplementation has a greater effect in stimulating libido than in women. Vitamin B 6 contributes to an increased serotonin level in specific sites in the brain (thus explaining the apparent contradiction between this and the fact that a global increase in serotonin impairs libido), which in turn causes a down-regulation of type 2A serotonin receptors (5-HT 2A receptors).
Particularly in males, lower numbers of 5-HT 2A receptors are associated with increased libido. In some men, this increase in libido can be dramatic. The downside of this is that the effect is rather transient, lasting for a week or less.
Normalizing B 6 intake for several weeks can restore some of the potential for a male to libidinally respond to future high dose B 6 regimens. However, the greatest “bang for the buck” (no pun intended) will be obtained during the first few times it is consumed. By the way, if you try this do not look for an immediate boost in your libido—it typically takes 3 to 5 days for an effect to be manifested.
Why doesn’t B 6 cause a sustained boost in libido? One explanation is that pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), the biologically active form of vitamin B 6 , affects steroid-induced gene expression. A study * performed at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that PLP decreased transcriptional (gene) responses to androgens (e.g., testosterone), estrogens, progesterone, and glucocorticoid (e.g., cortisol) hormones. In contrast, cells deficient in B 6 were more responsive to steroid hormones. This might suggest that the way to build bigger muscles or improve libido is to dutifully avoid B 6 since a B 6 deficiency would heighten the androgen response. However, things aren’t that simple since B 6 also decreased the response to some hormones, such as estrogen, that tend to counteract the effects of testosterone.
* Modulation of steroid receptor-mediated gene expression by vitamin B 6 . Tully DB, Allgood VE, Cidlowski JA. FASEB J 1994 Mar 1;8(3):343-9.
Furthermore, B 6 has a number of other effects in the body, many of which are conducive to sex and pleasure. For example, dopamine (a neurotransmitter involved in the perception of pleasure) is synthesized using a PLP-dependent enzyme.
With so many variables and so many ways to hash the data, it’s more helpful to focus on what people experience when they take B 6 . The bottom line is that B 6 can temporarily stimulate libido in some people. Failure to respond to B 6 might indicate that an individual manifested less suppression of estrogens than androgens, that their initial prolactin level was not sufficient to dampen libido, or several other things. Complex stuff? You bet, but the take-home message is clear: B 6 might stimulate libido. If it works, do not take high-dose supplements of it continuously for that purpose; the dose previously mentioned (25 mg three
times daily) is a high-dose regimen that is considerably above the recommended daily allowance of about 2 mg.
Men who are deficient in vitamin B 6 sometimes notice a significant increase in their flaccid penile size when their deficiency is corrected. The reason for this may seem obscure but, as we will explore later in this book, vitamin B 6 can reduce the homocysteine level. Since homocysteine interferes with the production of nitric oxide (NO), and nitric oxide influences penile blood flow, it is easy to understand the link between vitamin B 6 and penile size. Correcting a B 6 deficiency can increase the size and stiffness of erections, too, but stiffness will increase more than size. **
** To understand why stiffness increases more than size, try the following experiment, or just follow along conceptually. Take a 6-inch length of an old bicycle inner tube and seal it off on one end (the inner tube is hydraulically similar to the fibrous capsule that envelopes the penis), then blow some air into the other end. You will notice that the inner tube will be floppy until it is almost full of air (in this experiment, air is analogous to blood). Once the tube is almost full, adding just a bit more air can make the tube noticeably stiffer and harder, but the size of the tube does not increase by much.
The size of the penis in its flaccid state may seem like a trivial matter, but it’s not. If you respond to supplementation with B 6 (or B 12 or folic acid, which we’ll discuss later in the book), that might be a tip-off to a deficiency you might not otherwise notice. Because vitamins B 6 , B 12 , and folic acid play important roles in homocysteine metabolism and homocysteine influences your risk of cardiovascular disease, anything that alerts you to such a deficiency is worth its weight in gold. If you think that an average doctor has even the slightest clue as to the adequacy of your B 6 , B 12 , and folic acid levels, you’re overestimating the competency of most doctors.
My brother developed profound weakness and numbness, and four physicians (two ER, one family practitioner, and even a neurologist) told him he had carpal tunnel syndrome in spite of the fact that his signs and symptoms were not consistent with carpal tunnel disease. In reality, his problem was due to a deficiency of vitamin B 12 that caused his spinal cord to degenerate like a piece of Swiss cheese—hardly a problem that doctors should overlook or pass off as carpal tunnel syndrome.
Even if your diet contains a normal amount of vitamin B 6 , a deficiency may develop due to malabsorption, hyperthyroidism, diabetes, excessive loss, alcoholism, smoking, or the use of various drugs (e.g., corticosteroids [anti-inflammatory steroids], penicillamine, isoniazid, cycloserine, hydralazine, and some anticonvulsants). Studies in the 1960s and 1970s suggested that more B 6 is needed by women taking estrogen or oral contraceptives, but the latest research did not show any particular benefit for women taking those drugs.
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
The urologist said it's OK because that's what the semen analysis revealed:
1. Volume
How many milliliters were produced? Normal is between 1.5 – 5 mL, or between ¼ – 1 teaspoon. Low volumes can indicate a blockage or dysfunction in the seminal vesicles or prostate.
My result: 3.0
2. Concentration
How many million sperm per milliliter were produced? The normal is approximately 15-20 million or higher. Lower numbers may indicate that sperm is being blocked from coming out, or that the testicles are not producing sperm they way they should.
My result: 49.7
Among other things... I believe the only thing in that result that is not explained is "viscosity increased". The other results seem to indicate there's nothing wrong in this area. I'll visit the urologist again to a) ask if everything is OK with these results, and b) to clarify if the way I did the procedure in the room was adequate and couldn't alter the results. I remember I did everything correctly and didn't touch the inside of the bottle (which a link says would contaminate it), but you never know.
*********
And for the record the blood test on ZINC came today. And this was the result:
111,2 mcg/dL MCG/DL
Lab ranges: 70,0 - 120,0 MCG/DL
So we can rule this one out, too.
Reason to test this one:
******
Zinc and hypogonadism
******
Zinc is an essential dietary mineral. You need zinc for your immune system to function properly and for cell division. Zinc helps enzymes break down food and other nutrients. It also plays an important role in enzymes that build proteins. It can be found in certain foods, but it’s also available in supplements and even certain cold medications.
Having a zinc deficiency can lead to low testosterone. Exactly why a lack of zinc impacts testosterone levels isn’t fully understood. The mineral may affect the cells in the testes that produce testosterone.
******
Also:
>>>>>>>> Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults:
>>>>>>>> Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI
"Low testosterone is commonly associated with zinc deficiencies as androgen receptors are often altered in zinc deficient individuals. Adding zinc to the diet has been shown in various studies to increase levels of luteinizing hormone, a pituitary hormone that stimulates testosterone production. Studies have also shown zinc to be a strong aromatase inhibitor, which can block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen."
Suggested Intake: 30 mg daily"
************
And the ones that came normal: abdominal ultrassound and the MRI scan (I forgot to post the links):
Diego-RM-da-Sela-Turcica-23-10-2017.pdf
Diego-Ultrassom-de-abdomen-total-4-10-2017.pdf
ISOs from the CD-ROMs with images from both:
Diego-RM-da-Sela-Turcica-23-10-2017.iso
Diego-Ultrassom-de-abdomen-total-4-10-2017.iso
Like I said in previous posts it was reported (see the Wikipedia article ACCUTANE) that the treatment leads to "lower testostone levels". If that's the case then we need to do all sorts of tests to rule other causes.
The only blood tests I still wonder if are necessary or not at this point are:
- Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)
- E2, which measures the amount of estradiol, a form of estrogen
- DHEA-S (dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate)
- Progesterone
- IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor-1)
The more data we have about the side effects of this poison, the better.
Sexual complications in people treated with Accutane | RxISK
*******
About high prolactin: I'll check with a nutritionist the supplementation with vitamin B-6. That ebook from Dr. Pezzi explains the following about it:
*******
Accutane: what to do to solve the loss of libido:
- Try relatively high-dose supplemental vitamin B 6 (but avoid excessive doses that may induce a peripheral neuropathy; see the vitamin B 6 section for more information).
*******
Now, what about vitamin B-6? Pay attention to this part:
*******
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
Vitamin B 6 : High doses of vitamin B 6 can improve libido by reducing prolactin secretion in both sexes. B 6 can also improve the quality and intensity of sexual pleasure in some people who have poor genital sensation. An average dose for these applications is 25 mg three times daily. Vitamin B 6 is excreted soon after absorption, so it is preferable to take a smaller dose of B 6 three times daily rather than one large dose. Taking too much B 6 can cause insomnia and overly vivid dream recall, so if those side effects develop you should reduce your dose or at least reduce your supplementary intake later in the day.
Doses over 200 mg daily can result in neurological disorders if taken for several months. These disorders include a loss of position and vibration sense in the legs, and sensory ataxia (incoordination due to loss of proprioception, which is joint position sensation) which worsens when the eyes are closed. Recovery from this condition is slow and may be incomplete, so it is important to avoid potentially toxic levels of B 6 . If you take fairly high amounts of B 6 , you and your doctor should be on the lookout for any early signs of toxicity.
In males, B 6 supplementation has a greater effect in stimulating libido than in women. Vitamin B 6 contributes to an increased serotonin level in specific sites in the brain (thus explaining the apparent contradiction between this and the fact that a global increase in serotonin impairs libido), which in turn causes a down-regulation of type 2A serotonin receptors (5-HT 2A receptors).
Particularly in males, lower numbers of 5-HT 2A receptors are associated with increased libido. In some men, this increase in libido can be dramatic. The downside of this is that the effect is rather transient, lasting for a week or less.
Normalizing B 6 intake for several weeks can restore some of the potential for a male to libidinally respond to future high dose B 6 regimens. However, the greatest “bang for the buck” (no pun intended) will be obtained during the first few times it is consumed. By the way, if you try this do not look for an immediate boost in your libido—it typically takes 3 to 5 days for an effect to be manifested.
Why doesn’t B 6 cause a sustained boost in libido? One explanation is that pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), the biologically active form of vitamin B 6 , affects steroid-induced gene expression. A study * performed at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that PLP decreased transcriptional (gene) responses to androgens (e.g., testosterone), estrogens, progesterone, and glucocorticoid (e.g., cortisol) hormones. In contrast, cells deficient in B 6 were more responsive to steroid hormones. This might suggest that the way to build bigger muscles or improve libido is to dutifully avoid B 6 since a B 6 deficiency would heighten the androgen response. However, things aren’t that simple since B 6 also decreased the response to some hormones, such as estrogen, that tend to counteract the effects of testosterone.
* Modulation of steroid receptor-mediated gene expression by vitamin B 6 . Tully DB, Allgood VE, Cidlowski JA. FASEB J 1994 Mar 1;8(3):343-9.
Furthermore, B 6 has a number of other effects in the body, many of which are conducive to sex and pleasure. For example, dopamine (a neurotransmitter involved in the perception of pleasure) is synthesized using a PLP-dependent enzyme.
With so many variables and so many ways to hash the data, it’s more helpful to focus on what people experience when they take B 6 . The bottom line is that B 6 can temporarily stimulate libido in some people. Failure to respond to B 6 might indicate that an individual manifested less suppression of estrogens than androgens, that their initial prolactin level was not sufficient to dampen libido, or several other things. Complex stuff? You bet, but the take-home message is clear: B 6 might stimulate libido. If it works, do not take high-dose supplements of it continuously for that purpose; the dose previously mentioned (25 mg three
times daily) is a high-dose regimen that is considerably above the recommended daily allowance of about 2 mg.
Men who are deficient in vitamin B 6 sometimes notice a significant increase in their flaccid penile size when their deficiency is corrected. The reason for this may seem obscure but, as we will explore later in this book, vitamin B 6 can reduce the homocysteine level. Since homocysteine interferes with the production of nitric oxide (NO), and nitric oxide influences penile blood flow, it is easy to understand the link between vitamin B 6 and penile size. Correcting a B 6 deficiency can increase the size and stiffness of erections, too, but stiffness will increase more than size. **
** To understand why stiffness increases more than size, try the following experiment, or just follow along conceptually. Take a 6-inch length of an old bicycle inner tube and seal it off on one end (the inner tube is hydraulically similar to the fibrous capsule that envelopes the penis), then blow some air into the other end. You will notice that the inner tube will be floppy until it is almost full of air (in this experiment, air is analogous to blood). Once the tube is almost full, adding just a bit more air can make the tube noticeably stiffer and harder, but the size of the tube does not increase by much.
The size of the penis in its flaccid state may seem like a trivial matter, but it’s not. If you respond to supplementation with B 6 (or B 12 or folic acid, which we’ll discuss later in the book), that might be a tip-off to a deficiency you might not otherwise notice. Because vitamins B 6 , B 12 , and folic acid play important roles in homocysteine metabolism and homocysteine influences your risk of cardiovascular disease, anything that alerts you to such a deficiency is worth its weight in gold. If you think that an average doctor has even the slightest clue as to the adequacy of your B 6 , B 12 , and folic acid levels, you’re overestimating the competency of most doctors.
My brother developed profound weakness and numbness, and four physicians (two ER, one family practitioner, and even a neurologist) told him he had carpal tunnel syndrome in spite of the fact that his signs and symptoms were not consistent with carpal tunnel disease. In reality, his problem was due to a deficiency of vitamin B 12 that caused his spinal cord to degenerate like a piece of Swiss cheese—hardly a problem that doctors should overlook or pass off as carpal tunnel syndrome.
Even if your diet contains a normal amount of vitamin B 6 , a deficiency may develop due to malabsorption, hyperthyroidism, diabetes, excessive loss, alcoholism, smoking, or the use of various drugs (e.g., corticosteroids [anti-inflammatory steroids], penicillamine, isoniazid, cycloserine, hydralazine, and some anticonvulsants). Studies in the 1960s and 1970s suggested that more B 6 is needed by women taking estrogen or oral contraceptives, but the latest research did not show any particular benefit for women taking those drugs.
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Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
These links suggest the same thing:
Vitamin B6 and Testosterone : Is it an Effective Booster?
Forget Caber/Prami for Tren...Try B6
Cheap Dostinex: Megadosis Of Vitamin B6 And E - personal experience - Thunder's Place
B6 for prolactin supression
The Role of Vitamin B6 and B12 in Health And Testosterone - Testosterone Boosters Review
B6 and lowering prolactin
The latter says:
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High levels of the hormone prolactin are a major cause of low testosterone levels,low sex drive, erectile dysfunction and impotency in men. A surge in the hormone prolactin after sexual orgasm is the reason why men need a refractory period before they can go again.
Many men trying to lower prolactin levels choose to use the prescription drugs Bromocriptine and Dostinex (Cabergoline) but, although these drugs are effective at suppressing prolactin, they are expensive and many men experience a host of side effects whilst using them.
This natural prolactin inhibitor supplement stack will lower prolactin levels in men suffering from high prolactin levels.
In contrast to prescription prolactin inhibitor drugs, these supplements are extremely cheap and will not cause side effects in the vast majority of users.
Primary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:
1) Vitamin B6
2) Vitamin E
3) SAM-e
Secondary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:
1) Ginseng extract
2) Maca powder
3) Ashwagandha
4) Mucuna pruriens
5) Zinc
6) Ginkgo Biloba
(...)
Side effects:
High doses of B6 taken for many months can cause nerve problems such as tingling in the fingers and numbness in the toes (peripheral neuropathy); B6 can also worsen sleep quality in some people and cause vivid dreams. Fortunately, these problems completely resolve once B6 supplementation is stopped and, since it is water soluble, this won’t take too long.
Ways around these side effects:
One way to avoid the ‘finger tingling’ that high dose B6 can cause is to take the activated form of B6 called Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (P5P) - the activated form of B6 does not cause these nerve issues. In fact, the reason that high dose B6 causes nerve problems is that the body can’t always process very high B6 doses properly and this creates a deficiency of the active form of B6, P5P.
Recommended dosage:
To lower prolactin levels I would recommend you take 50 to 200mg of P5P a day, in divided doses. If you want to take regular B6, which as I've mentioned can sometimes cause minor side effects, take 300 to 1000 mg per day in divided doses. Read the label before you buy B6 because the Pyridoxine Hydrochloride type of B6 (in most supplements) has been shown to be a prolactin inhibitor but Pyridoxal hydrochloride has been shown to be ineffective at lowering prolactin (6) – make sure you buy the right type!
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That's EXACTLY what I am going to check if it's going to solve this side effect from Accutane. I said earlier that taking another drug was going to be necessary for a long time or indefinitely, and there was a risk of the same side effects returning once the treatment stops. At least vitamin B-6 would be a better choice.
Among all the discussions there was a quote that caught my attention. It seems to confirm what a member said previously: increasing testosterone won't solve this issue if we don't deal with the high prolactin at the same time:
Official Accutane Thread
Here's what the message said:
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**********************
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1. Accutane works on and significantly impacts Dopamine receptor D2 gene:
Chambon, et. al. Regulation of dopaminergic pathways by retinoids: activation of the D2 receptor promoter by members of the retinoic acid receptor-retinoid X receptor family. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14349-54.
Dopamine is a neuromodulator involved in the control of key physiological functions. Dopamine-dependent signal transduction is activated through the interaction with membrane receptors of the seven-transmembrane domain G protein-coupled family. Among them, dopamine D2 receptor is highly expressed in the striatum and the pituitary gland as well as by mesencephalic dopaminergic neurons. Lack of D2 receptors in mice leads to a locomotor parkinsonian-like phenotype and to pituitary tumors. The D2 receptor promoter has characteristics of a housekeeping gene. However, the restricted expression of this gene to particular neurons and cells points to a strict regulation of its expression by cell-specific transcription factors. We demonstrate here that the D2 receptor promoter contains a functional retinoic acid response element. Furthermore, analysis of retinoic acid receptor-null mice supports our finding and shows that in these animals D2 receptor expression is reduced. This finding assigns to retinoids an important role in the control of gene expression in the central nervous system.
Regulation of dopaminergic pathways by retinoids: activation of the D2 receptor promoter by members of the retinoic acid receptor-retinoid X recept... - PubMed - NCBI
2. Dopamine has a direct connection with Prolactin levels:
Dopamine (DA) holds a predominant role in the regulation of prolactin (PRL) secretion. Through a direct effect on anterior pituitary lactotrophs, DA inhibits the basally high-secretory tone of the cell. It accomplishes this by binding to D2 receptors expressed on the cell membrane of the lactotroph, activation of which results in a reduction of PRL exocytosis and gene expression by a variety of intracellular signalling mechanisms.
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/22/2_suppl/12.abstract
3. Let's say reduced Dopamine levels result in sustained elevated Prolactin, what would that mean over time?
Elevated serum prolactin levels create two problems that are inimical to sexual potency. With high serum prolactin levels, normal pulsatile GnRH and LH secretion does not proceed. This is why nursing mothers stop menstruating. Without pulsatile LH release, a man’s testicle is stranded without adequate stimulation and cannot produce its full ration of testosterone. Serum testosterone levels then fall. But giving more testosterone is not the remedy because elevated serum prolactin levels also prevent the body from responding normally to testosterone.
---
Here's where my own personal experiences and thoughts come into play...
I've had my T tuned for some time, taking DHEA, estrogen's in check. And yet I still have inconsistent issues with sexual performance and my mood is either dull or depressed. Surprisingly what made the connection for me was after every time I drink/smoke, the day after my sexual performance is immediately elevated. I could never understand why, it wouldn't last more than a day though. But within that was the key...
What does drinking and smoking do to the brain?
They both increase dopamine.
What does dopamine do again?
Regulates Prolactin.
What does Prolactin do again?
Suppresses male androgens.
Bingo!
Just to add to this re: mood. Always thought I had low serotonin so I would take 5HTP. 5HTP would make my sexual performance non-existent and also result in racing thoughts and terrible anxiety. I learned over the years 5HTP was a big no-no for me. I just assumed then I did not have low serotonin. In retrospect, serotonin is said to counter-balance dopamine and lower it. Was I just driving my dopamine further down? I digress...
If Accutane potentially reduces dopamine (cat goes away), Prolactin can shoot up (mice will play!), wreaking havoc on your endocrine system from there on out. I haven't gotten too far into it, but I will be pursing the idea that without dopamine, prolactin surges, potentially resulting in a pituitary tumor (prolactinoma) that could in turn impact other hormones. In my case my adrenals aren't doing much either (cortisol, aldosterone, dhea). I haven't gotten too far into how and if this relates however, just androgens.
But administering dopamine surrogates will shrink said tumors:
Three medications, bromocriptine (Parlodel), pergolide (Permax), and cabergoline (Dostinex) have doparninelike properties, and any of them can be an effective dopamine surrogate. When hyperprolactinemic men or women are treated with bromocriptine (Parlodel), pergolide (Permax) or cabergoline (Dostinex), serum prolactin levels promptly return to normal. Continued treatment is required to keep prolactin levels fully suppressed.
This treatment has been effective in two respects. Lowering serum prolactin levels to normal restores sensitivity to the sexual effects of testosterone. As serum prolactin levels fall, serum testosterone levels increase and potency returns. Bromocriptine (Parlodel) or cabergoline (Dostinex) treatment also decreases pituitary tumor size and shrinks prolactin-secreting tumor tissue.
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Sorry to hog the thread but a lot of this is coming together now and I just want to try to clarify and put everything in order of effect. So we know that:
1. Accutane results in lower IGF-1
2. Lower IGF-1 results in less p450scc and therefore lowered cortisol (and dhea) produced via blunted response to ACTH
3. Reduced dhea results in reduced testosterone which results in reduced dht
4. Reduced 5 Alpha Reductase activity (mainly type1) results in reduced DHT and a reduction in sebum
5. Lower cortisol results in a) lower dopamine levels and b) low metabolic rate via lowered T3 uptake
6. Low dopamine leads to low mood and elevated prolactin which leads to sexual dysfunction
7. Low metabolic rate causes chronic fatigue and hypothalamus reduces GH,LH
8. Low GH causes reduction in T3 to T4 conversion
I believe that this is how Accutane works and affects us.
From the blood tests I have had done I know that I have low cortisol and lowish dhea. I also know that my T4 (top quarter of range) and TSH levels are good however my T3 level is lowish (bottom quarter of range). I have a low metabolic rate and have been diagnosed, via my symptoms, by a thyroid specialist, as being hypothyroid despite T4 and TSH levels being spot on. For the last month I have been taking T3 meds but it has had little effect, even at 80mcg per day which indicates to me that my low cortisol is the culprit in low metabolic rate. I can guess that my ACTH response is blunted due to slight hyperpigmentation (red face after short exposure to sunlight).
Has anyone here had their IGF-1 tested and know their levels?
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That's what we all need to remember:
"But giving more testosterone is not the remedy because elevated serum prolactin levels also prevent the body from responding normally to testosterone."
Vitamin B6 and Testosterone : Is it an Effective Booster?
Forget Caber/Prami for Tren...Try B6
Cheap Dostinex: Megadosis Of Vitamin B6 And E - personal experience - Thunder's Place
B6 for prolactin supression
The Role of Vitamin B6 and B12 in Health And Testosterone - Testosterone Boosters Review
B6 and lowering prolactin
The latter says:
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High levels of the hormone prolactin are a major cause of low testosterone levels,low sex drive, erectile dysfunction and impotency in men. A surge in the hormone prolactin after sexual orgasm is the reason why men need a refractory period before they can go again.
Many men trying to lower prolactin levels choose to use the prescription drugs Bromocriptine and Dostinex (Cabergoline) but, although these drugs are effective at suppressing prolactin, they are expensive and many men experience a host of side effects whilst using them.
This natural prolactin inhibitor supplement stack will lower prolactin levels in men suffering from high prolactin levels.
In contrast to prescription prolactin inhibitor drugs, these supplements are extremely cheap and will not cause side effects in the vast majority of users.
Primary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:
1) Vitamin B6
2) Vitamin E
3) SAM-e
Secondary Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements:
1) Ginseng extract
2) Maca powder
3) Ashwagandha
4) Mucuna pruriens
5) Zinc
6) Ginkgo Biloba
(...)
Side effects:
High doses of B6 taken for many months can cause nerve problems such as tingling in the fingers and numbness in the toes (peripheral neuropathy); B6 can also worsen sleep quality in some people and cause vivid dreams. Fortunately, these problems completely resolve once B6 supplementation is stopped and, since it is water soluble, this won’t take too long.
Ways around these side effects:
One way to avoid the ‘finger tingling’ that high dose B6 can cause is to take the activated form of B6 called Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (P5P) - the activated form of B6 does not cause these nerve issues. In fact, the reason that high dose B6 causes nerve problems is that the body can’t always process very high B6 doses properly and this creates a deficiency of the active form of B6, P5P.
Recommended dosage:
To lower prolactin levels I would recommend you take 50 to 200mg of P5P a day, in divided doses. If you want to take regular B6, which as I've mentioned can sometimes cause minor side effects, take 300 to 1000 mg per day in divided doses. Read the label before you buy B6 because the Pyridoxine Hydrochloride type of B6 (in most supplements) has been shown to be a prolactin inhibitor but Pyridoxal hydrochloride has been shown to be ineffective at lowering prolactin (6) – make sure you buy the right type!
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That's EXACTLY what I am going to check if it's going to solve this side effect from Accutane. I said earlier that taking another drug was going to be necessary for a long time or indefinitely, and there was a risk of the same side effects returning once the treatment stops. At least vitamin B-6 would be a better choice.
Among all the discussions there was a quote that caught my attention. It seems to confirm what a member said previously: increasing testosterone won't solve this issue if we don't deal with the high prolactin at the same time:
Official Accutane Thread
Here's what the message said:
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1. Accutane works on and significantly impacts Dopamine receptor D2 gene:
Chambon, et. al. Regulation of dopaminergic pathways by retinoids: activation of the D2 receptor promoter by members of the retinoic acid receptor-retinoid X receptor family. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14349-54.
Dopamine is a neuromodulator involved in the control of key physiological functions. Dopamine-dependent signal transduction is activated through the interaction with membrane receptors of the seven-transmembrane domain G protein-coupled family. Among them, dopamine D2 receptor is highly expressed in the striatum and the pituitary gland as well as by mesencephalic dopaminergic neurons. Lack of D2 receptors in mice leads to a locomotor parkinsonian-like phenotype and to pituitary tumors. The D2 receptor promoter has characteristics of a housekeeping gene. However, the restricted expression of this gene to particular neurons and cells points to a strict regulation of its expression by cell-specific transcription factors. We demonstrate here that the D2 receptor promoter contains a functional retinoic acid response element. Furthermore, analysis of retinoic acid receptor-null mice supports our finding and shows that in these animals D2 receptor expression is reduced. This finding assigns to retinoids an important role in the control of gene expression in the central nervous system.
Regulation of dopaminergic pathways by retinoids: activation of the D2 receptor promoter by members of the retinoic acid receptor-retinoid X recept... - PubMed - NCBI
2. Dopamine has a direct connection with Prolactin levels:
Dopamine (DA) holds a predominant role in the regulation of prolactin (PRL) secretion. Through a direct effect on anterior pituitary lactotrophs, DA inhibits the basally high-secretory tone of the cell. It accomplishes this by binding to D2 receptors expressed on the cell membrane of the lactotroph, activation of which results in a reduction of PRL exocytosis and gene expression by a variety of intracellular signalling mechanisms.
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/22/2_suppl/12.abstract
3. Let's say reduced Dopamine levels result in sustained elevated Prolactin, what would that mean over time?
Elevated serum prolactin levels create two problems that are inimical to sexual potency. With high serum prolactin levels, normal pulsatile GnRH and LH secretion does not proceed. This is why nursing mothers stop menstruating. Without pulsatile LH release, a man’s testicle is stranded without adequate stimulation and cannot produce its full ration of testosterone. Serum testosterone levels then fall. But giving more testosterone is not the remedy because elevated serum prolactin levels also prevent the body from responding normally to testosterone.
---
Here's where my own personal experiences and thoughts come into play...
I've had my T tuned for some time, taking DHEA, estrogen's in check. And yet I still have inconsistent issues with sexual performance and my mood is either dull or depressed. Surprisingly what made the connection for me was after every time I drink/smoke, the day after my sexual performance is immediately elevated. I could never understand why, it wouldn't last more than a day though. But within that was the key...
What does drinking and smoking do to the brain?
They both increase dopamine.
What does dopamine do again?
Regulates Prolactin.
What does Prolactin do again?
Suppresses male androgens.
Bingo!
Just to add to this re: mood. Always thought I had low serotonin so I would take 5HTP. 5HTP would make my sexual performance non-existent and also result in racing thoughts and terrible anxiety. I learned over the years 5HTP was a big no-no for me. I just assumed then I did not have low serotonin. In retrospect, serotonin is said to counter-balance dopamine and lower it. Was I just driving my dopamine further down? I digress...
If Accutane potentially reduces dopamine (cat goes away), Prolactin can shoot up (mice will play!), wreaking havoc on your endocrine system from there on out. I haven't gotten too far into it, but I will be pursing the idea that without dopamine, prolactin surges, potentially resulting in a pituitary tumor (prolactinoma) that could in turn impact other hormones. In my case my adrenals aren't doing much either (cortisol, aldosterone, dhea). I haven't gotten too far into how and if this relates however, just androgens.
But administering dopamine surrogates will shrink said tumors:
Three medications, bromocriptine (Parlodel), pergolide (Permax), and cabergoline (Dostinex) have doparninelike properties, and any of them can be an effective dopamine surrogate. When hyperprolactinemic men or women are treated with bromocriptine (Parlodel), pergolide (Permax) or cabergoline (Dostinex), serum prolactin levels promptly return to normal. Continued treatment is required to keep prolactin levels fully suppressed.
This treatment has been effective in two respects. Lowering serum prolactin levels to normal restores sensitivity to the sexual effects of testosterone. As serum prolactin levels fall, serum testosterone levels increase and potency returns. Bromocriptine (Parlodel) or cabergoline (Dostinex) treatment also decreases pituitary tumor size and shrinks prolactin-secreting tumor tissue.
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Sorry to hog the thread but a lot of this is coming together now and I just want to try to clarify and put everything in order of effect. So we know that:
1. Accutane results in lower IGF-1
2. Lower IGF-1 results in less p450scc and therefore lowered cortisol (and dhea) produced via blunted response to ACTH
3. Reduced dhea results in reduced testosterone which results in reduced dht
4. Reduced 5 Alpha Reductase activity (mainly type1) results in reduced DHT and a reduction in sebum
5. Lower cortisol results in a) lower dopamine levels and b) low metabolic rate via lowered T3 uptake
6. Low dopamine leads to low mood and elevated prolactin which leads to sexual dysfunction
7. Low metabolic rate causes chronic fatigue and hypothalamus reduces GH,LH
8. Low GH causes reduction in T3 to T4 conversion
I believe that this is how Accutane works and affects us.
From the blood tests I have had done I know that I have low cortisol and lowish dhea. I also know that my T4 (top quarter of range) and TSH levels are good however my T3 level is lowish (bottom quarter of range). I have a low metabolic rate and have been diagnosed, via my symptoms, by a thyroid specialist, as being hypothyroid despite T4 and TSH levels being spot on. For the last month I have been taking T3 meds but it has had little effect, even at 80mcg per day which indicates to me that my low cortisol is the culprit in low metabolic rate. I can guess that my ACTH response is blunted due to slight hyperpigmentation (red face after short exposure to sunlight).
Has anyone here had their IGF-1 tested and know their levels?
**********************
**********************
**********************
That's what we all need to remember:
"But giving more testosterone is not the remedy because elevated serum prolactin levels also prevent the body from responding normally to testosterone."
Last edited:
Orion
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 879
Thanks for posting this information. I need to get bloodwork done soon, but will stress that prolactin be measured.
I do have P5P on hand that I have only tested with a few times with very small dosages, might test with it after blood tests.
Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
No ideas so far besides what I posted... and I don't know how things are going to work for me this year, all these lifestyle changes and trials will take quite some time.
Found this on the internet:
One hundred and twenty cases of enduring sexual dysfunction following treatment.
One_hundred_and_twenty_cases_of_enduring_sexual_dysfunction_following_treatment_-_2014.pdf
It's that classic study from 2014, where it's said:
************
(...)
Efforts to manage post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction (PSSD) have focussed on manipulating the sero-tonergic and dopaminergic systems, but to little avail. These have included 5HT-1 agonists like buspirone, as well as 5HT2 and 5HT-3 antagonists like trazodone and mirtazapine. These latter two drugs can induce priapism and increased libido respectively in normal people but have little effect in PSSD.
Affected subjects also report trying dopamine agonists such as pramipexole and cabergoline along with buproprion, dexamphetamine and other stimulants but to no avail. In addition patients have tried sildenafil, vardenafil and related drugs as well as testosterone but with little benefit.
These failures in part have perhaps contributed to proposals that the enduring difficulties are tied to epigenetic changes, but such proposals have not led to any treatment leads so far.
****************
And this one:
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Isotretinoin associated with erectile dysfunction
DOI owner: Springer-Verlag
Journal: Reactions Weekly
Year:2015, Month:7, Day:?, Volume:1560, Issue:1, First page:5, Last page:5
ISSN: 0114-9954(p)
1179-2051(e)
*********
Reactions 1560, p5 - 18 Jul 2015
*********
Isotretinoin associated with erectile dysfunction
*********
Seven cases of isotretinoin-associated erectile dysfunction were reported to the Netherlands Pharmacovigilance Centre Lareb between September 2000 and December 2014. Erectile dysfunction is not mentioned in the Summary of Product Characterisitics (SmPC) of oral isotretinoin formulations on the Dutch market or on the US market.
The manufacturer of isotretinoin has received more than 150 reports of male reproductive system disorders including 32 reports of erectile dysfunction. Erectile dysfunction has also been reported in patients receiving other retinoids (acitretin and etretinate). Database reports of isotretinoin-associated erectile dysfunction include the seven cases reported to Lareb, 132 cases reported to the WHO database and 61 cases reported to Eudravigilance, the database of the European Medicines Agency. Reduced testosterone levels have been reported during treatment with isotretinoin. In addition to erectile dysfunction, clinical manifestations of low testosterone levels include gynaecomastia and decreased libido, both of which have been reported to Lareb (6 and 3 cases, respectively), WHO (102 and 77 cases, respectively) and Eudravigilance (30 and 42 cases, respectively).
"Our data suggests that treatment with isotretinoin can cause erectile dysfunction, possibly by causing testosterone deficiency," concluded Lareb. "The association of erectile dysfunction with the use of isotretinoin is a new signal," said Lareb, and it should be mentioned in the SmPC.
Lareb. Isotretinoin and erectile dysfunction. Lareb Quarterly Report : 21-25, 15 May 2015.
Available from: URL (now it's a dead link):
Welkom bij Bijwerkingencentrum Lareb
Found this on the internet:
One hundred and twenty cases of enduring sexual dysfunction following treatment.
One_hundred_and_twenty_cases_of_enduring_sexual_dysfunction_following_treatment_-_2014.pdf
It's that classic study from 2014, where it's said:
************
(...)
Efforts to manage post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction (PSSD) have focussed on manipulating the sero-tonergic and dopaminergic systems, but to little avail. These have included 5HT-1 agonists like buspirone, as well as 5HT2 and 5HT-3 antagonists like trazodone and mirtazapine. These latter two drugs can induce priapism and increased libido respectively in normal people but have little effect in PSSD.
Affected subjects also report trying dopamine agonists such as pramipexole and cabergoline along with buproprion, dexamphetamine and other stimulants but to no avail. In addition patients have tried sildenafil, vardenafil and related drugs as well as testosterone but with little benefit.
These failures in part have perhaps contributed to proposals that the enduring difficulties are tied to epigenetic changes, but such proposals have not led to any treatment leads so far.
****************
And this one:
*********
Isotretinoin associated with erectile dysfunction
DOI owner: Springer-Verlag
Journal: Reactions Weekly
Year:2015, Month:7, Day:?, Volume:1560, Issue:1, First page:5, Last page:5
ISSN: 0114-9954(p)
1179-2051(e)
*********
Reactions 1560, p5 - 18 Jul 2015
*********
Isotretinoin associated with erectile dysfunction
*********
Seven cases of isotretinoin-associated erectile dysfunction were reported to the Netherlands Pharmacovigilance Centre Lareb between September 2000 and December 2014. Erectile dysfunction is not mentioned in the Summary of Product Characterisitics (SmPC) of oral isotretinoin formulations on the Dutch market or on the US market.
The manufacturer of isotretinoin has received more than 150 reports of male reproductive system disorders including 32 reports of erectile dysfunction. Erectile dysfunction has also been reported in patients receiving other retinoids (acitretin and etretinate). Database reports of isotretinoin-associated erectile dysfunction include the seven cases reported to Lareb, 132 cases reported to the WHO database and 61 cases reported to Eudravigilance, the database of the European Medicines Agency. Reduced testosterone levels have been reported during treatment with isotretinoin. In addition to erectile dysfunction, clinical manifestations of low testosterone levels include gynaecomastia and decreased libido, both of which have been reported to Lareb (6 and 3 cases, respectively), WHO (102 and 77 cases, respectively) and Eudravigilance (30 and 42 cases, respectively).
"Our data suggests that treatment with isotretinoin can cause erectile dysfunction, possibly by causing testosterone deficiency," concluded Lareb. "The association of erectile dysfunction with the use of isotretinoin is a new signal," said Lareb, and it should be mentioned in the SmPC.
Lareb. Isotretinoin and erectile dysfunction. Lareb Quarterly Report : 21-25, 15 May 2015.
Available from: URL (now it's a dead link):
Welkom bij Bijwerkingencentrum Lareb
Last edited:
tanedout
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 538
This is interesting, but from a personal perspective it doesn't tally in with my bloods (post accutane). I have consistently high cortisol (sometimes as much as 130% of the top range), not low. My DHT isn't low, it's high - above top range, DHEA is in range, and my metabolic rate is high/very high. My prolactin isn't elevated either, it's well within range. But I do have symptoms which would tally in with low dopamine, or low dopamine response.
This is why I think the theory gbol puts forward with some people left with upregulated receptors, and some with downregulated makes a lot of sense.
The high dose B6 discussion is interesting though. I seem to get improved mental clarity at least from taking an active B-complex (with folate), obviously B6 included.
I agree, whilst these effects may occur whilst on accutane, I doubt they persist. I've had bloods for IGF-1 which showed normal levels. So the theory wouldn't hold after stopping accutane. Also I have particularly high DHEA.
tanedout, what are your cortisol levels? Also have you tested progesterone? do you think its possible cortisol is high because your receptors aren't working/being activated?
Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
Considering the MANY side effects from this poison I think it's a miracle that I only experienced dry lips during treatment, plus depression for at least 3 years (now there's not a single shred of this, it's completely gone) after it ended, and the loss of libido that for all these years I suspected was only due to my views on women/sex/masturbation/society/etc - psychological reasons. I only found out this forum and all these stories months ago. That's when I started to take a series of blood tests.
Someone mentioned a few other symptoms that affect the eyes in this post:
Help! i am concerned about my skin medication - Eye Care - MedHelp
I found a few studies and articles and will share them here, perhaps some will be useful:
Short-term isotretinoin treatment decreases insulin-like growth factor-1 and insulin-like growth factor binding protein-3 levels: does isotretinoin affect growth hormone physiology? (2010)
Short-term_isotretinoin_treatment_decreases_insulin-like_growth_factor-1..._-_2010.pdf
Persistent_Corneal_Opacity_After_Oral_Isotretinoin_Therapy_for_Acne_-_2000
Persistent_Corneal_Opacity_After_Oral_Isotretinoin_Therapy_for_Acne_-_2000.pdf
Accutane Defense Win: Court overturns $1 million verdict for lack of evidence (interesting reading, take a look what was the excuse given)
Accutane_Defense_Win_-_Court_overturns_1_million_verdict_for_lack_of_evidence_-_1990.pdf
Isotretinoin_and_psychopathology_-_a_review_-_2009
Isotretinoin_and_psychopathology_-_a_review_-_2009.pdf
Isotretinoin_associated_with_craving_for_cigarettes_-_2000
Isotretinoin_associated_with_craving_for_cigarettes_-_2000.pdf
(another confirmation that by affecting dopamine isotretinoin causes depression and as a consequence this loss of libido)
Isotretinoin treatment for acne vulgaris and its cutaneous and ocular side-effects - 1999
Isotretinoin_treatment_for_acne_vulgaris_and_its_cutaneous_and_ocular_side-effects_-_1999.pdf
The_association_between_depression_and_isotretinoin_use_in_acne_-_2003
The_association_between_depression_and_isotretinoin_use_in_acne_-_2003.pdf
The_psychological_and_emotional_impact_of_acne_and_the_effect_of_treatment_with_isotretinoin_-_1999
The_psychological_and_emotional_impact_of_acne_and_the_effect_of_treatment_with_isotretinoin_-_1999.pdf
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About testosterone, prolactin, vitamin B-6...
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Effect_of_Intravenous_Pyridoxine_on_Plasma_Prolactin_in_Hyperprolactinemic_Subjects_-_1978
Effect_of_Intravenous_Pyridoxine_on_Plasma_Prolactin_in_Hyperprolactinemic_Subjects_-_1978.pdf
Gambling_-_increased_libido_-_class_effects_of_dopamine_agonists_-_2006
Gambling_-_increased_libido_-_class_effects_of_dopamine_agonists_-_2006.pdf
Inhibition_of_prolactin_by_pyridoxine_-_1979
Inhibition_of_prolactin_by_pyridoxine_-_1979.pdf
Is_the_measurement_of_ST_routinely_indicated_in_men_with_ED_-_1999
Is_the_measurement_of_ST_routinely_indicated_in_men_with_ED_-_1999.pdf
Is_there_any_relation_between_serum_levels_of_TT_and_the_severity_of_ED_-_2002
Is_there_any_relation_between_serum_levels_of_TT_and_the_severity_of_ED_-_2002.pdf
Lack_of_Acute_Effects_of_Pyridoxine_on_Prolactin_Secretion..._-_1978
Lack_of_Acute_Effects_of_Pyridoxine_on_Prolactin_Secretion..._-_1978.pdf
Lack_of_sexual_activity_from_ED_is_associated_with_a_reversible_reduction_in_ST_-_1999
Lack_of_sexual_activity_from_ED_is_associated_with_a_reversible_reduction_in_ST_-_1999.pdf
Phthalates_might_interfere_with_testicular_function_by_reducing..._-_2015
Phthalates_might_interfere_with_testicular_function_by_reducing..._-_2015.pdf
(this one raises attention to one thing that can lower testosterone levels. About phthalates I suggest reading these sources
* Dioxins_and_Health_-_Arnold_Schecter_-_2012
* The_Dirty_Dozen_-_Toxic_Chemicals_and_the_Earths_Future_-_2003
* Toxicants_in_Food_Packaging_and_Household_Plastics_-_Suzanne_M._Snedeker_-_2014
* Not_Just_a_Pretty_Face_-_The_Ugly_Side_of_the_Beauty_Industry_-_2007
* Slow_Death_by_Rubber_Duck_-_How_the_Toxic_Chemistry_of_Everyday..._-_2009
* Toxic_Beauty_-_How_Cosmetics..._-_Samuel_S._Epstein_-_2009
* What's_Gotten_Into_Us_-_Staying_Healthy_in_a_Toxic_World_-_2011
* Toxin_Toxout_-_Getting_Harmful_Chemicals_Out_of_Our_Bodies..._-_2013
* Is_It_Safe_-_BPA_and_the_Struggle_to_Define_the_Safety_of_Chemicals_-_2013
* Estrogeneration_-_How_Estrogenics_Are_Making_You..._-_Anthony_G._Jay_-_2017
Among others.
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Induced_Inhibition_of_Prolactin_Release_in_the_Female_Rat_-_1978
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Induced_Inhibition_of_Prolactin_Release_in_the_Female_Rat_-_1978.pdf
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Suppresses_the_Rise_in_Prolactin_and_Increases..._-_1982
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Suppresses_the_Rise_in_Prolactin_and_Increases..._-_1982.pdf
Testosterone_levels_in_men_with_erectile_dysfunction_-_2006
Testosterone_levels_in_men_with_erectile_dysfunction_-_2006.pdf
The_Relationships_Between_Serum_Testosterone_and_Prolactin_Levels_and_NPT_in_Impotent_Men_-_1982
The_Relationships_Between_Serum_Testosterone_and_Prolactin_Levels_and_NPT_in_Impotent_Men_-_1982.pdf
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MORE STUDIES ON VITAMIN B-6
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Pyridoxine (Vit. B 6 ) Decreases Opioids-lnduced Hyperproiactinemia, 1985
Pyridoxine_-_Vit._B-6_-_Decreases_Opioids-lnduced_Hyperproiactinemia_-_1985.pdf
Effect of Pyridoxine on Pituitary Release of Growth Hormone and Prolactin in Childhood and Adolescence* - 1978
Effect_of_Pyridoxine_on_Pituitary_Release_of_Growth_Hormone_and_Prolactin..._-_1978.pdf
Suppression of thyrotropin (TSH) and prolactin (PRL) release by pyridoxine in chronic primary hypothyroidism. 1977
Suppression_of_Thyrotropin_-TSH-_and_Prolactin_-PRL-_Release_by_Pyridoxine..._-_1977.pdf
TREATMENT OF WOMEN WITH THE GALACTORRHEA-AMENORRHEA SYNDROME WITH PYRIDOXINE (VITAMIN B-6 ), 1976
Treatment_of_Women_With_the_Galactorrhea-Amenorrhea_Syndrome_With_Pyridoxine_-_1976.pdf
EFFECT OF PYRIDOXINE ON HUMAN HYPOPHYSEAL TROPHIC HORMONE RELEASE: A POSSIBLE STIMULATION OF HYPOTHALAMIC DOPAMINERGIC PATHWAY. 1976
Effect_of_Pyridoxine_on_Human_Hypophyseal_Trophic_Hormone_Release..._-_1976.pdf
Pyridoxine Improves Drug-Induced Parkinsonism and Psychosis in a Schizophrenic Patient, 1990
Pyridoxine_Improves_Drug-Induced_Parkinsonism_and_Psychosis_in_a_Schizophrenic_Patient_-_1990.pdf
Effects of pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6) on chlorpromazine-induced serum prolactin rise in male rats, 1979
Effects_of_pyridoxine_hydrochloride_-vitamin_B6-_on_chlorpromazine-induced_serum_prolactin..._-_1979.pdf
Inhibition of L-Dopa-Induced Growth Hormone Stimulation by Pyridoxine and Chlorpromazine
Inhibition_of_L-Dopa-Induced_Growth_Hormone_Stimulation_by_Pyridoxine_and_Chlorpromazine_-_1974.pdf
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Additional comments about B6:
Vitamin B6 Is A Dopamine Agonist And Prolactin Inhibitor
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Since it's been established that Accutane causes depression by changing how the brain regulates Dopamine and Serotonin, I have a very, very important question:
- What kind of exam would confirm that I still have (after all these years) low dopamine? Since low libido and not feeling motivated (I think I am, however let's say I am wrong) are consequences of it?
I did a little more research and this was the only one I could find:
Catecholamines
Is this what's necessary to confirm once and for all (despite high prolactin and all the others I already posted) what Accutane did?
One thing that I forgot to say is that the loss of libido actually benefit me. I am not by a long shot interested in returning to the old days when my libido was normal/high, so this side effect did not caused my any issues AT ALL. To return to the way I was would be like a healthy individual following a strict diet to start eating junk food.
I might also give many reasons for not wanting any relationship with women, or engaging in sex or masturbation, and may justify that having the libido of a "devoted priest" is not something that impairs one's life (I don't think I was cut out for this, just doesn't feel these three things are relevant). My life was never about any of those things. And I grew tired of them over the years.
But (and here's an important thing I failed to understand until now) the way I behave and think TODAY might be exactly a result of this side effect.
If we ask any psychopath if they are "normal" we will never hear them admiting, because if their minds could create guilt they would not be what they are in the first place. That clearly tells one's opinion should be disregarded not because that person is biased by her life experiences, the way she sees and understand things.
It should not matter much because there are diseases that a) don't have any symptoms, or b- the person doesn't (or can't) feel sick, even though SHE IS.
How come? The decision to not eat "junk food" as I put it is something that can be justified and we may decide not to and follow a strict diet, yet we ARE ABLE TO DECIDE FOR OURSELVES.
The accutane treatment stole that choice from me. Did you all get my point? Perhaps (just perhaps) I was not meant to be what I am today, perhaps this "meddling" destroyed my sex life and as a result the fact I am not even complaining IS PRECISELY A CONFIRMATION OF THIS SIDE EFFECT.
In fact I completely forgot this treatment and was only informed about any of this when in 2017 I tested for testosterone (I think for the first time) after reading a suggestion to do it. This clearly demonstrates that I didn't remember Accutane or care about it AT ALL. I always thought what "went wrong" in 2012-13 (depression, libido increased shortly and then a sharp decline, and in the next years less interest).
The depression I had in 2012 was anything like I experienced before. I remember I cried for days/weeks at the time (and this was one year after the Accutane treatment ended) because all of sudden I was feeling REALLY BAD. It took me YEARS to overcome this side effect, just like that Superman III scene in the junkyard, that contain a metaphor and hallucination wherein Superman is actually alone in the junkyard, raising hell and causing damage, and fighting a Jekyll-Hyde war for control solely in his own mind.
I never used any other drug (not even to treat this depression) and was able to flush down the toilet that mental imbalance over time. During the treatment I followed all medical advices and didn't even visit the gym for fear of jeopardizing the treatment, spend time outside, etc. I didn't do anything wrong.
I'll see what else is left now... my biggest fear is that not having the old libido I can't feel motivated in my body and mind to do all the other stuff. For example, not have good memory or have a little fatigue that not even older people have. Even if the libido doesn't improve I'll fix the rest, as in "improve my health/lifestyle".
It doesn't surprise me little is known about all these reported side effects, considering how many quacks are out there prescribing this drug. I would take with a grain of salt these reports (see the 2014 study) that some meds didn't help restoring the libido. We don't know what kinds of tests all these people did and if they had any other deficiency in their diets or any other undisclosed or unknown health problems.
In my case I'll check with the nutritionist Monday which supplements can help. Maybe the correct vitamin B-6, vitamin-E and a few more, perhaps the prolactin will decrease after some good changes in my life. Also vitamin D from the SUN to increase testosterone.
As someone once said, "nobody cares about our health but US". Keep digging for answers.
Someone mentioned a few other symptoms that affect the eyes in this post:
Help! i am concerned about my skin medication - Eye Care - MedHelp
I found a few studies and articles and will share them here, perhaps some will be useful:
Short-term isotretinoin treatment decreases insulin-like growth factor-1 and insulin-like growth factor binding protein-3 levels: does isotretinoin affect growth hormone physiology? (2010)
Short-term_isotretinoin_treatment_decreases_insulin-like_growth_factor-1..._-_2010.pdf
Persistent_Corneal_Opacity_After_Oral_Isotretinoin_Therapy_for_Acne_-_2000
Persistent_Corneal_Opacity_After_Oral_Isotretinoin_Therapy_for_Acne_-_2000.pdf
Accutane Defense Win: Court overturns $1 million verdict for lack of evidence (interesting reading, take a look what was the excuse given)
Accutane_Defense_Win_-_Court_overturns_1_million_verdict_for_lack_of_evidence_-_1990.pdf
Isotretinoin_and_psychopathology_-_a_review_-_2009
Isotretinoin_and_psychopathology_-_a_review_-_2009.pdf
Isotretinoin_associated_with_craving_for_cigarettes_-_2000
Isotretinoin_associated_with_craving_for_cigarettes_-_2000.pdf
(another confirmation that by affecting dopamine isotretinoin causes depression and as a consequence this loss of libido)
Isotretinoin treatment for acne vulgaris and its cutaneous and ocular side-effects - 1999
Isotretinoin_treatment_for_acne_vulgaris_and_its_cutaneous_and_ocular_side-effects_-_1999.pdf
The_association_between_depression_and_isotretinoin_use_in_acne_-_2003
The_association_between_depression_and_isotretinoin_use_in_acne_-_2003.pdf
The_psychological_and_emotional_impact_of_acne_and_the_effect_of_treatment_with_isotretinoin_-_1999
The_psychological_and_emotional_impact_of_acne_and_the_effect_of_treatment_with_isotretinoin_-_1999.pdf
************
About testosterone, prolactin, vitamin B-6...
************
Effect_of_Intravenous_Pyridoxine_on_Plasma_Prolactin_in_Hyperprolactinemic_Subjects_-_1978
Effect_of_Intravenous_Pyridoxine_on_Plasma_Prolactin_in_Hyperprolactinemic_Subjects_-_1978.pdf
Gambling_-_increased_libido_-_class_effects_of_dopamine_agonists_-_2006
Gambling_-_increased_libido_-_class_effects_of_dopamine_agonists_-_2006.pdf
Inhibition_of_prolactin_by_pyridoxine_-_1979
Inhibition_of_prolactin_by_pyridoxine_-_1979.pdf
Is_the_measurement_of_ST_routinely_indicated_in_men_with_ED_-_1999
Is_the_measurement_of_ST_routinely_indicated_in_men_with_ED_-_1999.pdf
Is_there_any_relation_between_serum_levels_of_TT_and_the_severity_of_ED_-_2002
Is_there_any_relation_between_serum_levels_of_TT_and_the_severity_of_ED_-_2002.pdf
Lack_of_Acute_Effects_of_Pyridoxine_on_Prolactin_Secretion..._-_1978
Lack_of_Acute_Effects_of_Pyridoxine_on_Prolactin_Secretion..._-_1978.pdf
Lack_of_sexual_activity_from_ED_is_associated_with_a_reversible_reduction_in_ST_-_1999
Lack_of_sexual_activity_from_ED_is_associated_with_a_reversible_reduction_in_ST_-_1999.pdf
Phthalates_might_interfere_with_testicular_function_by_reducing..._-_2015
Phthalates_might_interfere_with_testicular_function_by_reducing..._-_2015.pdf
(this one raises attention to one thing that can lower testosterone levels. About phthalates I suggest reading these sources
* Dioxins_and_Health_-_Arnold_Schecter_-_2012
* The_Dirty_Dozen_-_Toxic_Chemicals_and_the_Earths_Future_-_2003
* Toxicants_in_Food_Packaging_and_Household_Plastics_-_Suzanne_M._Snedeker_-_2014
* Not_Just_a_Pretty_Face_-_The_Ugly_Side_of_the_Beauty_Industry_-_2007
* Slow_Death_by_Rubber_Duck_-_How_the_Toxic_Chemistry_of_Everyday..._-_2009
* Toxic_Beauty_-_How_Cosmetics..._-_Samuel_S._Epstein_-_2009
* What's_Gotten_Into_Us_-_Staying_Healthy_in_a_Toxic_World_-_2011
* Toxin_Toxout_-_Getting_Harmful_Chemicals_Out_of_Our_Bodies..._-_2013
* Is_It_Safe_-_BPA_and_the_Struggle_to_Define_the_Safety_of_Chemicals_-_2013
* Estrogeneration_-_How_Estrogenics_Are_Making_You..._-_Anthony_G._Jay_-_2017
Among others.
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Induced_Inhibition_of_Prolactin_Release_in_the_Female_Rat_-_1978
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Induced_Inhibition_of_Prolactin_Release_in_the_Female_Rat_-_1978.pdf
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Suppresses_the_Rise_in_Prolactin_and_Increases..._-_1982
Pyridoxine_-B6-_Suppresses_the_Rise_in_Prolactin_and_Increases..._-_1982.pdf
Testosterone_levels_in_men_with_erectile_dysfunction_-_2006
Testosterone_levels_in_men_with_erectile_dysfunction_-_2006.pdf
The_Relationships_Between_Serum_Testosterone_and_Prolactin_Levels_and_NPT_in_Impotent_Men_-_1982
The_Relationships_Between_Serum_Testosterone_and_Prolactin_Levels_and_NPT_in_Impotent_Men_-_1982.pdf
*******************************
MORE STUDIES ON VITAMIN B-6
*******************************
Pyridoxine (Vit. B 6 ) Decreases Opioids-lnduced Hyperproiactinemia, 1985
Pyridoxine_-_Vit._B-6_-_Decreases_Opioids-lnduced_Hyperproiactinemia_-_1985.pdf
Effect of Pyridoxine on Pituitary Release of Growth Hormone and Prolactin in Childhood and Adolescence* - 1978
Effect_of_Pyridoxine_on_Pituitary_Release_of_Growth_Hormone_and_Prolactin..._-_1978.pdf
Suppression of thyrotropin (TSH) and prolactin (PRL) release by pyridoxine in chronic primary hypothyroidism. 1977
Suppression_of_Thyrotropin_-TSH-_and_Prolactin_-PRL-_Release_by_Pyridoxine..._-_1977.pdf
TREATMENT OF WOMEN WITH THE GALACTORRHEA-AMENORRHEA SYNDROME WITH PYRIDOXINE (VITAMIN B-6 ), 1976
Treatment_of_Women_With_the_Galactorrhea-Amenorrhea_Syndrome_With_Pyridoxine_-_1976.pdf
EFFECT OF PYRIDOXINE ON HUMAN HYPOPHYSEAL TROPHIC HORMONE RELEASE: A POSSIBLE STIMULATION OF HYPOTHALAMIC DOPAMINERGIC PATHWAY. 1976
Effect_of_Pyridoxine_on_Human_Hypophyseal_Trophic_Hormone_Release..._-_1976.pdf
Pyridoxine Improves Drug-Induced Parkinsonism and Psychosis in a Schizophrenic Patient, 1990
Pyridoxine_Improves_Drug-Induced_Parkinsonism_and_Psychosis_in_a_Schizophrenic_Patient_-_1990.pdf
Effects of pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6) on chlorpromazine-induced serum prolactin rise in male rats, 1979
Effects_of_pyridoxine_hydrochloride_-vitamin_B6-_on_chlorpromazine-induced_serum_prolactin..._-_1979.pdf
Inhibition of L-Dopa-Induced Growth Hormone Stimulation by Pyridoxine and Chlorpromazine
Inhibition_of_L-Dopa-Induced_Growth_Hormone_Stimulation_by_Pyridoxine_and_Chlorpromazine_-_1974.pdf
*******************************
Additional comments about B6:
Vitamin B6 Is A Dopamine Agonist And Prolactin Inhibitor
*********************
Since it's been established that Accutane causes depression by changing how the brain regulates Dopamine and Serotonin, I have a very, very important question:
- What kind of exam would confirm that I still have (after all these years) low dopamine? Since low libido and not feeling motivated (I think I am, however let's say I am wrong) are consequences of it?
I did a little more research and this was the only one I could find:
Catecholamines
Is this what's necessary to confirm once and for all (despite high prolactin and all the others I already posted) what Accutane did?
One thing that I forgot to say is that the loss of libido actually benefit me. I am not by a long shot interested in returning to the old days when my libido was normal/high, so this side effect did not caused my any issues AT ALL. To return to the way I was would be like a healthy individual following a strict diet to start eating junk food.
I might also give many reasons for not wanting any relationship with women, or engaging in sex or masturbation, and may justify that having the libido of a "devoted priest" is not something that impairs one's life (I don't think I was cut out for this, just doesn't feel these three things are relevant). My life was never about any of those things. And I grew tired of them over the years.
But (and here's an important thing I failed to understand until now) the way I behave and think TODAY might be exactly a result of this side effect.
If we ask any psychopath if they are "normal" we will never hear them admiting, because if their minds could create guilt they would not be what they are in the first place. That clearly tells one's opinion should be disregarded not because that person is biased by her life experiences, the way she sees and understand things.
It should not matter much because there are diseases that a) don't have any symptoms, or b- the person doesn't (or can't) feel sick, even though SHE IS.
How come? The decision to not eat "junk food" as I put it is something that can be justified and we may decide not to and follow a strict diet, yet we ARE ABLE TO DECIDE FOR OURSELVES.
The accutane treatment stole that choice from me. Did you all get my point? Perhaps (just perhaps) I was not meant to be what I am today, perhaps this "meddling" destroyed my sex life and as a result the fact I am not even complaining IS PRECISELY A CONFIRMATION OF THIS SIDE EFFECT.
In fact I completely forgot this treatment and was only informed about any of this when in 2017 I tested for testosterone (I think for the first time) after reading a suggestion to do it. This clearly demonstrates that I didn't remember Accutane or care about it AT ALL. I always thought what "went wrong" in 2012-13 (depression, libido increased shortly and then a sharp decline, and in the next years less interest).
The depression I had in 2012 was anything like I experienced before. I remember I cried for days/weeks at the time (and this was one year after the Accutane treatment ended) because all of sudden I was feeling REALLY BAD. It took me YEARS to overcome this side effect, just like that Superman III scene in the junkyard, that contain a metaphor and hallucination wherein Superman is actually alone in the junkyard, raising hell and causing damage, and fighting a Jekyll-Hyde war for control solely in his own mind.
I never used any other drug (not even to treat this depression) and was able to flush down the toilet that mental imbalance over time. During the treatment I followed all medical advices and didn't even visit the gym for fear of jeopardizing the treatment, spend time outside, etc. I didn't do anything wrong.
I'll see what else is left now... my biggest fear is that not having the old libido I can't feel motivated in my body and mind to do all the other stuff. For example, not have good memory or have a little fatigue that not even older people have. Even if the libido doesn't improve I'll fix the rest, as in "improve my health/lifestyle".
It doesn't surprise me little is known about all these reported side effects, considering how many quacks are out there prescribing this drug. I would take with a grain of salt these reports (see the 2014 study) that some meds didn't help restoring the libido. We don't know what kinds of tests all these people did and if they had any other deficiency in their diets or any other undisclosed or unknown health problems.
In my case I'll check with the nutritionist Monday which supplements can help. Maybe the correct vitamin B-6, vitamin-E and a few more, perhaps the prolactin will decrease after some good changes in my life. Also vitamin D from the SUN to increase testosterone.
As someone once said, "nobody cares about our health but US". Keep digging for answers.
Last edited:
Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
I discovered some relevant evidence, for those who saw all the blood tests and additional exams I posted here, and have been following my profile:
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
This is the proof I did this treatment, and how it worked during 2011. In one of the papers the visits to dermatologists are listed (CISAM = the name of the clinic), in March 31, May 17, June 9 and August 31.
I didn't have to pay for anything (not even the drug). In the other paper you can see the dates in which isotretinoin was sent to me by the pharmacy. The paper says I registered at May 2, and the treatment was prescribed by the doctor for 8.5 months. The acne I had was in the back, it was not severe by a long shot, still nothing else was working. I am sure if I had waited and changed my lifestyle the acne would be gone in a matter of years.
- In May 2 I received a package with 60 pills, and was said to take 2 each day. The dose was 20 mg. Then there's the first day of the months June, July, August and September, October 3 and November/December 1st.
If I remember correctly I started going to the gym at least 3 months after the treatment ended. Blood tests were done in May 1st, July 5 and October 3, as a requirement to continue prescribing this drug.
That's it, I am posting all of this here in case this information is useful.
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
This is the proof I did this treatment, and how it worked during 2011. In one of the papers the visits to dermatologists are listed (CISAM = the name of the clinic), in March 31, May 17, June 9 and August 31.
I didn't have to pay for anything (not even the drug). In the other paper you can see the dates in which isotretinoin was sent to me by the pharmacy. The paper says I registered at May 2, and the treatment was prescribed by the doctor for 8.5 months. The acne I had was in the back, it was not severe by a long shot, still nothing else was working. I am sure if I had waited and changed my lifestyle the acne would be gone in a matter of years.
- In May 2 I received a package with 60 pills, and was said to take 2 each day. The dose was 20 mg. Then there's the first day of the months June, July, August and September, October 3 and November/December 1st.
If I remember correctly I started going to the gym at least 3 months after the treatment ended. Blood tests were done in May 1st, July 5 and October 3, as a requirement to continue prescribing this drug.
That's it, I am posting all of this here in case this information is useful.
Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
I visited a nutritionist today and so far he only prescribed (note: I go to the gym everyday) Whey Protein Concentrate, Creatine (5g/day), Fish Oil 1000 mg (3/day), and:
Fat-soluble vitamins:
D-3 (2000 UI) and E (200 UI). He said to take one pill/day.
Plus probiotics, 1/day. What he recommended can be seen here:
CONSULTA-DE-29-1-2018_-_NUTRICIONISTA-ROBERTO-FILHO-1-DE-6.jpg and CONSULTA-DE-29-1-2018_-_NUTRICIONISTA-ROBERTO-FILHO-2-DE-6.jpg
I am still waiting for my new diet, he also sent some general tips, but that was it, about vitamin B-6 he only mentioned this one:
https://www.ems.com.br/arquivos/produtos/bulas/bula_polivitaminico_do_complexo_b_2044_1562.pdf
And hinted that it won't work the same way other meds like Cabergoline do, but judging from what I've seen I think he was not informed about this subject. He measured a few things and I fit in all normal parameters:
Body fat percentage - Wikipedia
My health is perfectly fine (not counting this side effect).
I'll ask in the next days to my endocrinologist if taking B-6 (50 mg, P5P) will help in any way with the high prolactin, or my only recourse is to take Cabergoline and similar meds. I advise anyone reading me to disregard studies like this one:
One_hundred_and_twenty_cases_of_enduring_sexual_dysfunction_following_treatment_-_2014.pdf
Which say nothing tried worked, because they do not post any thorough detail from the individuals tested, and since every person is different we can't say that taking B-6 in all cases of low libido caused by the Accutane treatment won't work. There's no data to back these allegations, and when I say THERE'S NO DATA I mean no one posted all possible blood tests like I did in this thread.
Note: I don't doubt that 2014 study is accurate when it says using dopamine agonists (+ more testosterone) didn't help with low libido. My complaint is that there's a serious lack of documented evidence.
Another thing I would like to ask is about these passages from that Dr. Pezzi book. In it he mentions this can be a reason for this side effect:
******
I think it interferes with the proper functioning of some sensory peripheral nerves, or their receptors, or the brain’s response to the nerve data, thus greatly distorting tactile fidelity (a subject I will discuss in detail later in this chapter). This disturbance of fidelity is not necessarily confined to the genitals; Accutane has been associated with a dysesthetic * tingling on nongenital skin, the course and intensity of which seems to parallel the unpleasant sexual “hit your funny bone” tingling. These dysesthesias may persist for a few seconds after the inciting stimulus is removed. If you lightly touch your skin, for example, the sensation usually ends when the contact ceases. In contrast, Accutane-induced dysesthesias may take seconds to fade away.
* A dysesthesia (dis-es-THEE-zee-uh) is an unpleasant abnormal sensation, whether spontaneous or evoked. Many authors and physicians use dysesthesia interchangeably with paresthesia, which is an abnormal sensation that is not unpleasant. Dictionaries often muddy the issue by defining paresthesia as a burning, prickling, itching, or tingling skin sensation— most of which are unpleasant.
****
See a knowledgeable physician to exclude other causes of dysesthesias and reduced sensation. There are numerous possible causes, such as vitamin B 12 deficiency, multiple sclerosis, brain tumors, strokes, transient ischemic attacks (TIAs), arteriovenous malformations, transverse myelitis, encephalitis, trauma, and peripheral neuropathies secondary to diabetes, alcoholism, hypothyroidism, hereditary conditions (Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease, Denny-Brown's syndrome, familial amyloidotic polyneuropathy), malignancy, uremia, connective tissue disorders (e.g., rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus, polyarteritis nodosa, autoimmune vasculitis, systemic sclerosis, and Sjögren's syndrome), inflammation (acute idiopathic polyneuritis and chronic relapsing polyneuropathy), chronic overdosage of vitamin B 6 , some chemotherapy, heavy metal toxicity (e.g., lead, arsenic, or mercury), some industrial exposures (e.g., solvents), certain medications, sarcoidosis, porphyria, Lyme disease, and leprosy. Believe it or not, but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Physicians should keep in mind that it is possible to have symptoms of dysesthesias or paresthesias without measurable neurologic deficits of pain, touch, vibration, joint position, or thermal sensation.
- As a last resort, consider trying one of the drugs used to treat dysesthesias and paresthesias, such as carbamazepine (Tegretol ® ), mexiletine (Mexitil ® ), gabapentin (Neurontin ® ), and tricyclic antidepressants (e.g., imipramine [Tofranil ® ] and amitriptyline [Elavil ® ]). Neurologists believe that paresthesias and dysesthesias represent abnormal showers of neural impulses generated from abnormalities anywhere along the sensory pathway, from the peripheral nerves to the sensory cortex of the brain. The aforementioned drugs may reduce the excitability of neurons and therefore mitigate Accutane-induced dysesthesias, especially the unpleasant tingling that persists after skin contact. However, these drugs will not restore sexual sensitivity.
- Be patient. The dysesthesias tend to diminish in time, although it may take years. Your perception of sexual pleasure will likely increase, too, although it may not return to your pre-Accutane zenith. The elimination half-life (that is, the time it takes for half of an administered drug to be excreted) suggests that Accutane does not persist in the body for a long time. The drug may not stick around for long, but its effects do. It is as if Accutane flips some switches in the body. This is true for its intended effect (the long-term suppression of acne), and its sexual side effects.
Once flipped, those effects are permanent, or at least very long lasting.
Hence, you should think twice before using Accutane. There is no way to know in advance if your use of Accutane will trigger dysesthesias and reduced sensation. You may take it for a while without any problems, and then wake up with enough sensory abnormalities to make you wonder if your spinal cord was mashed in a vice while you slept. Being cheated out of life’s greatest pleasure is a terrible fate. Are you willing to take that risk?
********
P.S. My vitamin B-12 levels are OK, too. I would be interested to check for the B-6 levels, though.
Fat-soluble vitamins:
D-3 (2000 UI) and E (200 UI). He said to take one pill/day.
Plus probiotics, 1/day. What he recommended can be seen here:
CONSULTA-DE-29-1-2018_-_NUTRICIONISTA-ROBERTO-FILHO-1-DE-6.jpg and CONSULTA-DE-29-1-2018_-_NUTRICIONISTA-ROBERTO-FILHO-2-DE-6.jpg
I am still waiting for my new diet, he also sent some general tips, but that was it, about vitamin B-6 he only mentioned this one:
https://www.ems.com.br/arquivos/produtos/bulas/bula_polivitaminico_do_complexo_b_2044_1562.pdf
And hinted that it won't work the same way other meds like Cabergoline do, but judging from what I've seen I think he was not informed about this subject. He measured a few things and I fit in all normal parameters:
Body fat percentage - Wikipedia
My health is perfectly fine (not counting this side effect).
I'll ask in the next days to my endocrinologist if taking B-6 (50 mg, P5P) will help in any way with the high prolactin, or my only recourse is to take Cabergoline and similar meds. I advise anyone reading me to disregard studies like this one:
One_hundred_and_twenty_cases_of_enduring_sexual_dysfunction_following_treatment_-_2014.pdf
Which say nothing tried worked, because they do not post any thorough detail from the individuals tested, and since every person is different we can't say that taking B-6 in all cases of low libido caused by the Accutane treatment won't work. There's no data to back these allegations, and when I say THERE'S NO DATA I mean no one posted all possible blood tests like I did in this thread.
Note: I don't doubt that 2014 study is accurate when it says using dopamine agonists (+ more testosterone) didn't help with low libido. My complaint is that there's a serious lack of documented evidence.
Another thing I would like to ask is about these passages from that Dr. Pezzi book. In it he mentions this can be a reason for this side effect:
******
I think it interferes with the proper functioning of some sensory peripheral nerves, or their receptors, or the brain’s response to the nerve data, thus greatly distorting tactile fidelity (a subject I will discuss in detail later in this chapter). This disturbance of fidelity is not necessarily confined to the genitals; Accutane has been associated with a dysesthetic * tingling on nongenital skin, the course and intensity of which seems to parallel the unpleasant sexual “hit your funny bone” tingling. These dysesthesias may persist for a few seconds after the inciting stimulus is removed. If you lightly touch your skin, for example, the sensation usually ends when the contact ceases. In contrast, Accutane-induced dysesthesias may take seconds to fade away.
* A dysesthesia (dis-es-THEE-zee-uh) is an unpleasant abnormal sensation, whether spontaneous or evoked. Many authors and physicians use dysesthesia interchangeably with paresthesia, which is an abnormal sensation that is not unpleasant. Dictionaries often muddy the issue by defining paresthesia as a burning, prickling, itching, or tingling skin sensation— most of which are unpleasant.
****
See a knowledgeable physician to exclude other causes of dysesthesias and reduced sensation. There are numerous possible causes, such as vitamin B 12 deficiency, multiple sclerosis, brain tumors, strokes, transient ischemic attacks (TIAs), arteriovenous malformations, transverse myelitis, encephalitis, trauma, and peripheral neuropathies secondary to diabetes, alcoholism, hypothyroidism, hereditary conditions (Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease, Denny-Brown's syndrome, familial amyloidotic polyneuropathy), malignancy, uremia, connective tissue disorders (e.g., rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus, polyarteritis nodosa, autoimmune vasculitis, systemic sclerosis, and Sjögren's syndrome), inflammation (acute idiopathic polyneuritis and chronic relapsing polyneuropathy), chronic overdosage of vitamin B 6 , some chemotherapy, heavy metal toxicity (e.g., lead, arsenic, or mercury), some industrial exposures (e.g., solvents), certain medications, sarcoidosis, porphyria, Lyme disease, and leprosy. Believe it or not, but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Physicians should keep in mind that it is possible to have symptoms of dysesthesias or paresthesias without measurable neurologic deficits of pain, touch, vibration, joint position, or thermal sensation.
- As a last resort, consider trying one of the drugs used to treat dysesthesias and paresthesias, such as carbamazepine (Tegretol ® ), mexiletine (Mexitil ® ), gabapentin (Neurontin ® ), and tricyclic antidepressants (e.g., imipramine [Tofranil ® ] and amitriptyline [Elavil ® ]). Neurologists believe that paresthesias and dysesthesias represent abnormal showers of neural impulses generated from abnormalities anywhere along the sensory pathway, from the peripheral nerves to the sensory cortex of the brain. The aforementioned drugs may reduce the excitability of neurons and therefore mitigate Accutane-induced dysesthesias, especially the unpleasant tingling that persists after skin contact. However, these drugs will not restore sexual sensitivity.
- Be patient. The dysesthesias tend to diminish in time, although it may take years. Your perception of sexual pleasure will likely increase, too, although it may not return to your pre-Accutane zenith. The elimination half-life (that is, the time it takes for half of an administered drug to be excreted) suggests that Accutane does not persist in the body for a long time. The drug may not stick around for long, but its effects do. It is as if Accutane flips some switches in the body. This is true for its intended effect (the long-term suppression of acne), and its sexual side effects.
Once flipped, those effects are permanent, or at least very long lasting.
Hence, you should think twice before using Accutane. There is no way to know in advance if your use of Accutane will trigger dysesthesias and reduced sensation. You may take it for a while without any problems, and then wake up with enough sensory abnormalities to make you wonder if your spinal cord was mashed in a vice while you slept. Being cheated out of life’s greatest pleasure is a terrible fate. Are you willing to take that risk?
********
P.S. My vitamin B-12 levels are OK, too. I would be interested to check for the B-6 levels, though.
Last edited:
Perene
Member
- Messages
- 16
For the record, here's what I found out just now: the max intake for Vitamin B-6, suggested to treat high prolactin instead of the expensive (and needed for years with a chance of the results being scrapped after interruption of treatment) Cabergoline and similar drugs.
(and this one was pointed as the best choice/most effective in treating the high prolactin):
- Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), the metabolically active form (sold as P-5-P vitamin supplement)
It's not even 50 mg, but 25 mg/day. This PDF explains that thoroughly:
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/efsa_rep/blobserver_assets/ndatolerableuil.pdf
Are You Overdosing On Vitamin B6?! (check this one, too)
I was discouraged after reading all this to try 50-200 mg. I think that contrary to the previous links I posted there's a chance of this supplement (at high doses) introduce new health issues, and opting for 25 mg/day will not produce the same results, but it's a risk I am willing to take.
I converted the 2000 IU from the vitamin D prescribed by the nutritionist and noticed it fits the max intake ALSO RECOMMENDED from that PDF (for adults):
50 ug/day = exactly 2000 IU
For vitamin E the PDF apparently says 270 mg/day for adults (rounded to 300). 200 IU as prescribed is equivalent to 134 or 90 mg.
Vitamin-E is mentioned to be helpful in this regard just like B-6.
Vitamin A is dopaminergic and reduces prolactin in humans
As for vitamin D, Greg made some great comments in this podcast episode, but since the Sun will hit directly my face I'll continue using, to prevent my skin from aging faster. I know that it's only a few minutes every day that I expose myself, still...
I'll sunbathe in the shade every morning (between 9am and 12pm, the only moment of the day when this can work), without any protection, to compensate for that, a few minutes. So with the supplement and this idea I predict my testosterone levels will be in the 400's again. And tomorrow I'll see if more blood tests can be done to add them to this investigation.
(and this one was pointed as the best choice/most effective in treating the high prolactin):
- Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), the metabolically active form (sold as P-5-P vitamin supplement)
It's not even 50 mg, but 25 mg/day. This PDF explains that thoroughly:
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/efsa_rep/blobserver_assets/ndatolerableuil.pdf
Are You Overdosing On Vitamin B6?! (check this one, too)
I was discouraged after reading all this to try 50-200 mg. I think that contrary to the previous links I posted there's a chance of this supplement (at high doses) introduce new health issues, and opting for 25 mg/day will not produce the same results, but it's a risk I am willing to take.
I converted the 2000 IU from the vitamin D prescribed by the nutritionist and noticed it fits the max intake ALSO RECOMMENDED from that PDF (for adults):
50 ug/day = exactly 2000 IU
For vitamin E the PDF apparently says 270 mg/day for adults (rounded to 300). 200 IU as prescribed is equivalent to 134 or 90 mg.
Vitamin-E is mentioned to be helpful in this regard just like B-6.
Vitamin A is dopaminergic and reduces prolactin in humans
As for vitamin D, Greg made some great comments in this podcast episode, but since the Sun will hit directly my face I'll continue using, to prevent my skin from aging faster. I know that it's only a few minutes every day that I expose myself, still...
I'll sunbathe in the shade every morning (between 9am and 12pm, the only moment of the day when this can work), without any protection, to compensate for that, a few minutes. So with the supplement and this idea I predict my testosterone levels will be in the 400's again. And tomorrow I'll see if more blood tests can be done to add them to this investigation.