Alternatives to curing PFS/PSSD

[unexamined_whimsy]

Perhaps we should also compile a list of all the approaches that have been experimented with/hypothesized for curing PFS and/or PSSD. By analyzing them perhaps we can brainstorm a way of finetuning the approaches outlined by @gbolduev thus far.

I personally haven't taken Finasteride or any SSRI in the past, but quite a few of the supplements I have taken had saw palmetto in them, which could possibly be behind my libido/EQ issues and proneness to estrogenic symptoms. I must say that the Ray Peat diet, made my estrogenic symptoms much, much worse, and it might be the root cause of my problems...lol!

1. Resveratrol

According to Peat, Reseveratrol being a stilbene, is an estrogen. Some also call it an SERM. However, on 500mg 98% pure resveratrol I experienced a complete lack of water retention, and joint pains, particularly in my knees, which according to bodybuilder lore is a clinching sign of tanking estrogen too low. My libido and EQ was also exceptionally good at the time, all seemingly on account of resveratrol. I stopped taking it a few years ago after coming under the spell of Peat's aversion to estrogen. The effects of resveratrol are somewhat reminiscent of one of gbolduev's suggestions, i.e., taking estrogen+DHT in order to reverse PFS like symptoms. Apparently, there is also some research showing that estrogen+DHT combination works. Could resveratrol be a viable contrarian endocrinology approach to solving PFS. @gbolduev?

2. Winstrol/Stanozolol

On BB forums, the idea that the DHT-based AAS, Winstol is an anti-progesterone has been floating around for quite a while, though a lot of folks believe that support for this notion in the literature is quite weak. Has anyone tried a classical Winny-only cycle, along with the usual PCT? @TubZy could you weigh in? Masteron is another alternative, as is Oxandrolone/Anavar though they aren't reputed to be anti-progesterone.

3. Clomid + Nolvadex

This is inspired by the mild PCTs bodybuilders end up doing. Again, I have thus far avoided any SERM (like Nolvadex) because of their estrogenic proerties, but letrozole and arimidex make absolutely no dent to my nipple itch when it does arise. Curiously, both the popular anti-prolactin drugs Cabergoline, and Bromocriptine make very little dent in controlling 'estrogenic' symptoms such as water retention. Nolvadex is the go to drug by BBs for controlling/stopping gyno and nipple itch. My logic for Clomid is to stimulate the HPTA axis. Thoughts?

What else....? Comments?

 

[TubZy]

As for reference to number two you can include anadrol/superdrol which also have anti progesterone properties and can upregulate the ER.

I posted about it in the old PFS thread on RP. I'll get you some more info on it, but I had personal experience from superdrol a long time ago which led me to taking finasteride in the first place.

 

[TubZy]

Here ya go, regarding anadrol/superdrol.

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/anabolic-steroids-anadrol/

Much has been made of the fact that anadrol seems to cause gynecomastia. Oxymetholone cannot be converted to estrogen so many theories have been put forth to explain this effect. Some have theorized that oxymetholone binds directly to the estrogen receptor but there is no scientific evidence to support this theory. Others have blamed this effect on progestational activity of oxymetholone. Oxymetholone has been shown in the literature to have anti-progestational effects. As explained earlier, antagonism of the progesterone receptor upregulates the estrogen receptor. This, coupled with the displacement of estrogen from SHBG is the likely culprit in oxymetholone induced gyno. Mifepristone (RU486), a progesterone receptor antagonist has also been shown to induce gynecomastia when taken chronically. Like methandrostenolone, oxymetholone elicits an increase in CBG which is contrary to most other AAS. Oxymetholone, unlike methandrostenolone, actually causes a slight decrease in non-plasma bound cortisol10. Oxymetholone decreases TBG pretty strongly resulting in increased T3 uptake10.

 

[TubZy]

Also I tried masteron, I wouldn't suggest it. It just mimics DHT in the body which you don't want and has no interaction with the ER or progesterone. Basically, it is very similar to proviron or DHT gel, which will just make you more DHT insensitive.

You want something that will make you DHT sensitive again, hence the reason why upregulating estrogen receptors will help make DHT sensitive again (as long as the drug/supplement you are using has anti prog effects).

When estrogen receptors upregulate you want DHT to rise again to counter it, not progesterone. When progesterone rises to counteract estrogen, it basically deactivates DHT, hence making you DHT insensitive causing PFS symptoms.

So overall, we need to lower prog while upregulating estrogen receptors, than while prog is lowered, let DHT rise again and counteract the estrogen not progesterone otherwise you would be back to baseline again.

 

[IHateFin]

I use to take a supplement that had reversatrol in it and I would noticed increase ejaculate from it. I wonder about taking it now? Hmm may take it again haha

 

[Reverse]

Are there any methods that have a good track record for curing PFS?

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[TubZy]

Stole this from [mention]m_arch[/mention] post, who highlighted it from Gbol regarding licorice root since someone recovered from using licorice root once a week.

Lower sodium (correlates with lowered aldosterone):
-Take magnesium
-Licorice lowers aldosterone sensitivity and when you get off, sodium actually falls and estrogen is raised which makes DHT sensitive

 

[Aleksandr]

Stole this from @m_arch post, who highlighted it from Gbol regarding licorice root since someone recovered from using licorice root once a week.

Lower sodium (correlates with lowered aldosterone):
-Take magnesium
-Licorice lowers aldosterone sensitivity and when you get off, sodium actually falls and estrogen is raised which makes DHT sensitive

Who recovered using licorice root? Do you know the dosage / brand they used?

 

[Goose12]

Stole this from @m_arch post, who highlighted it from Gbol regarding licorice root since someone recovered from using licorice root once a week.

Lower sodium (correlates with lowered aldosterone):
-Take magnesium
-Licorice lowers aldosterone sensitivity and when you get off, sodium actually falls and estrogen is raised which makes DHT sensitive

Who recovered using licorice root? Do you know the dosage / brand they used?

Here is a guy who recovered using licorice root

http://www.swolesource.com/forum/post-finasteride-syndrome/3334-long-time-lurker-finally-got-my-health-back-doing-cdnuts-boost-your-low-t-protocol.html

 

[IHateFin]

This seemed like a good thread to post this thought in.

I have heard of some success stories with a drug called TRIPTORELIN

Articles I read:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/triptorelin-to-restore-hpta.134305905/

http://www.ergo-log.com/triptorelin.html

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What are your guys thoughts on this. I heard a couple guys say they recovered from this?????

I have tried tripto a few times. It jacked up my test but it fell back. Didn't alleviate PFS

 

[Aleksandr]

Stole this from @m_arch post, who highlighted it from Gbol regarding licorice root since someone recovered from using licorice root once a week.

Lower sodium (correlates with lowered aldosterone):
-Take magnesium
-Licorice lowers aldosterone sensitivity and when you get off, sodium actually falls and estrogen is raised which makes DHT sensitive

Who recovered using licorice root? Do you know the dosage / brand they used?

Here is a guy who recovered using licorice root

http://www.swolesource.com/forum/post-finasteride-syndrome/3334-long-time-lurker-finally-got-my-health-back-doing-cdnuts-boost-your-low-t-protocol.html

Wow super interesting. Apparently it preserves cortisol by blocking the enzyme that breaks down cortisol

Sounds like it would be good for me. ive got high sodium and low potassium which correlates to high aldosterone and low cortisol

I might have to save this one for my next hair test though. I'm already supplementing 3 minerals atm i should just see how they go first xD

 

[TubZy]

High dose betaine HCL

 

[wuf]

I have a question for the PSSD suffers.. a close friend of mine, she's a girl is on Cytalopran 5 drps/day and I told her about the risk and she now wants to quit...what is the better way to quit? I mean cold turkey is not suggested for sure, so how much time does she have to drop wit the the dose?
Thank you

 

[barbaar]

[mention]wuf[/mention] Slower than you'd think. I'm talking months. When I came off citalopram my doc just told me to take one 10mg tablet every other day for a week or so or quit cold turkey since I was already on the lowest dose. I wish I had done more research and came off way slower than that. https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/how-to-taper-off-your-antidepressant Here they say to leave two to six weeks between dose reductions, and those are still pretty big jumps between doses. If by drps you mean drops, as in she's taking a liquid formulation, it should be easy to gradually reduce the dosage. Wish her good luck, and hope she's like most people and can come off scot-free.

 

[Shadow]

I have a question for the PSSD suffers.. a close friend of mine, she's a girl is on Cytalopran 5 drps/day and I told her about the risk and she now wants to quit...what is the better way to quit? I mean cold turkey is not suggested for sure, so how much time does she have to drop wit the the dose?
Thank you

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly, citalopram AND escitalopram was the main offenders when we talk about PSSD.
Theres a protocol, who says that one should reduce the dosage by 10% of the ACTUAL DOSE every 2-6 weeks.

A quick rule is, if you reduced the dose, and you feel weird, return to the previous dose and try an intermediate dosage.

Tapering from 5mg are the most delicate part. Its seems to be the peak of effect, like 70% of the effect is achieved at this dosage.

I stayed on 1mg for 2 weeks and after I stopped I still experienced the brain zaps and some crazy mood symptoms.

 

[wuf]

@wuf Slower than you'd think. I'm talking months. When I came off citalopram my doc just told me to take one 10mg tablet every other day for a week or so or quit cold turkey since I was already on the lowest dose. I wish I had done more research and came off way slower than that. https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/how-to-taper-off-your-antidepressant Here they say to leave two to six weeks between dose reductions, and those are still pretty big jumps between doses. If by drps you mean drops, as in she's taking a liquid formulation, it should be easy to gradually reduce the dosage. Wish her good luck, and hope she's like most people and can come off scot-free.

Thank you guys...
yes I mean drops( keybord not working well)..
now she's at 5 drops liquid form and her doctor told her to take 4 drops till dcember and then to reduce drops at 3 etc...
i was wondering if it was too long way to go till december etc..by this step she will be off around february and i can see she has already changed her character since she's using this crp from june.
so i am worred.

 

[TubZy]

@BeLikeWater

read the OP and the posts here, since you mentioned anavar curing ppl before, might give u better insight