Balance, context and oxidation types

[Ivy]

Ok, there's something else I find hard to grasp, maybe one of you can explain:

slow oxidizers rarely have high insulin, only can get it high on a high sugar diet, Since they are forcing metabolism higher without the sympathetic nervous system. This causes the body to increase insulin but their body does not need this. It does not want to increase metabolism. Sugar metabolism increases too much Co2. Sugar is kept low inside of the cell. Thyroid is kept low in a slow oxidizer ON PURPOSE. People will be losing hair, getting fatter, if they try to increase metabolism in slow oxidation without solving sympathetic nervous system problem. Thus if all these people don't take tons of caffeine, they are screwed. And caffeine makes them screwed over time also. Since it desensitizes their adrenaline receptors which are already low.

What exactly is the underlying SNS problem he's referring to? And does it manifest consistently in all the four cases he outlined, with their varying ratio of adrenaline and serotonin?

[mention]gbolduev[/mention], feel free to tag along.

 

[Latapy]

I don't understand one thing: everything indicates I am slow oxidizer. [mention]gbolduev[/mention] says when slow oxidizers eat sugar, they easily gain fat. However, when I go for full sugar diet, I start to lose weight like crazy. Ok, I may end up under eating a bit since I find too difficult to fulfill all the calorie needs just by eating only sugar. Nevertheless, for instance, I see all my family members afraid of fruit because of the sugar content which they always say "We can't eat to much of it because we will get fat" (supposedly) and here I am confused, since if I go for fruits and sugars I will basically disappear.

 

[Canari]

Ok, there's something else I find hard to grasp, maybe one of you can explain:

slow oxidizers rarely have high insulin, only can get it high on a high sugar diet, Since they are forcing metabolism higher without the sympathetic nervous system. This causes the body to increase insulin but their body does not need this. It does not want to increase metabolism. Sugar metabolism increases too much Co2. Sugar is kept low inside of the cell. Thyroid is kept low in a slow oxidizer ON PURPOSE. People will be losing hair, getting fatter, if they try to increase metabolism in slow oxidation without solving sympathetic nervous system problem. Thus if all these people don't take tons of caffeine, they are screwed. And caffeine makes them screwed over time also. Since it desensitizes their adrenaline receptors which are already low.

What exactly is the underlying SNS problem he's referring to? And does it manifest consistently in all the four cases he outlined, with their varying ratio of adrenaline and serotonin?

[mention]gbolduev[/mention] , feel free to tag along.

This and what [mention]Latapy[/mention] is the reason why [mention]mattyb[/mention] created a thread discussing using or not the dichotomy of slow and fast.
Ivy, what is in the quote corresponds to what some say: do not take thyroid before solving adrenal issues! Or else you can increase your T hormones in the blood, as the cell will resist taking it. I don't know if it is exactly the same for all hormones? [mention]mattyb[/mention] ?
I know that I have some insuline resistance for example, and my blood sugar goes down too slowly. I got this tested when I was 18 (after having sugar in urine). I stayed away from sugar and coffee until RP...
I do have a slow metabolism and little adrenaline drive. I can feel that in general and all my life, I did not feel any urge to "burn energy". Today I did more than usual, and I HAD TO! I have to be careful with my new coffee! I had an obvious adrenaline reaction!

Like [mention]Latapy[/mention] I do not get fat though....
In some cases it is possible to have active SNS and it is invisible because the PsSN is also active, covering the SNS. This case is the one that burn the most energy.

It might also be this case that is considered as slow by 1 of the 2 labs, and a fast by the other lab.... And I am still looking for the concordances between the nerves and the endocrine/mineral system...

 

[Aleksandr]

Ok, there's something else I find hard to grasp, maybe one of you can explain:

slow oxidizers rarely have high insulin, only can get it high on a high sugar diet, Since they are forcing metabolism higher without the sympathetic nervous system. This causes the body to increase insulin but their body does not need this. It does not want to increase metabolism. Sugar metabolism increases too much Co2. Sugar is kept low inside of the cell. Thyroid is kept low in a slow oxidizer ON PURPOSE. People will be losing hair, getting fatter, if they try to increase metabolism in slow oxidation without solving sympathetic nervous system problem. Thus if all these people don't take tons of caffeine, they are screwed. And caffeine makes them screwed over time also. Since it desensitizes their adrenaline receptors which are already low.

What exactly is the underlying SNS problem he's referring to? And does it manifest consistently in all the four cases he outlined, with their varying ratio of adrenaline and serotonin?

@gbolduev, feel free to tag along.

Adrenaline is lower than serotonin making you para sympathetic dominant most of the time. So he says to achieve balance you nees lifestyle factors that promote more adrenaline.

In slow oxidise this is the case all of the time . Although it depends on the test you use. Trace elements hair test always uses calcium to phosphorous. I think in this case phosphorous = adrenaline, calcium = serotonin? Not sure tho

Arl uses something different

 

[Canari]

http://www.tvernonlac.com/copper-toxicity.html
Slow Oxidation

The effect of high copper on the adrenal and thyroid glands reduces the metabolism and creates a state of slow oxidation in the body. Oxidation Type is a concept developed by Dr. George Watson, a researcher at UCLA.

Oxidation means to burn or mix with oxygen. Those who burn food at a slower than ideal rate are slow oxidizers. Oxidation rate is mainly a reflection of thyroid and adrenal activity. Copper slows both glands down.

The first response to stress is to activate the body by increasing the oxidation rate as an alarm response. As the alarm stage persists for a long period of time, the oxidation rate begins to decline, moving into the resistance stage of stress.

Slow Oxidation and Chronic Stress

This can persist for many years with mildly slow oxidation and low adrenal hormone production. As exhaustion sets in, the oxidation rate becomes very slow. An alarm condition can be superimposed on the slow oxidation state creating a temporary fast condition, but the underlying metabolism is slow.

Those in slow oxidation tend to sweat less, have drier skin and hair, have a tendency toward constipation, along with fatigue, depression, apathy, low blood sugar, adrenal insufficiency and low blood pressure. The under-active thyroid can result in sluggishness, weight gain on the hips and legs, low body temperature and sensitivity to cold.

Slow oxidizers tend to be more withdrawn, introverted and less emotionally expressive. Extreme slow oxidation tends toward depression, despair and suicidal thoughts. As the slow oxidation becomes more extreme, more and more of these symptoms will develop.

 

[Canari]

Fast oxidizers have low calcium and magnesium levels. Their high sodium to potassium ratio is linked with the alarm stage of stress, and produces rapid metabolism of foods, and overactive thyroid and adrenal glands. This adrenal activity produces a continual conversion of stored sugar to blood glucose and severely depletes glycogen reserves. Their hyperactive thyroids rapidly burn glucose and further deplete reserves. Under stress such people experience precipitous falls in blood sugar levels, and are called "reactive" hypoglycemics. Activities and foods that worsen their rapid oxidation state are:

Exercise
Overwork
Stress of all kind
Sweets
Caffeine
Alcohol

This group benefits from eating frequent, small meals consisting of high amounts of fats and proteins. Fat slows the excessive oxidation rate and does not trigger an insulin response. Restoring calcium, magnesium and zinc will also slow the oxidizing rate. Vitamin A, D, B2, B12, choline and inositol also slow an excessive rate of oxidation.

 

[Jamie]

Hi, I m new on the forum and have been lurking on RPF for approximately two months. I'm a bit confused, will zinc+manganese be good for fast oxidizer with hairloss?

 

[Canari]

Hi Jamie, you'd better go and post into the hair loss section, thanks!

 

[Jamie]

U re right, sorry

 

[Canari]

We indeed all have a similar goal. Increase your resiliency, that is to say your capacity to go from action to relaxation. You are either better at one side or at the other, but if you are dis-regulated, you are not plastic enough. Life is like waves going up and down. Resiliency has to do with the size of the waves, the closeness of one wave to the next and the speed to go up and down.

So it is not all about having a fast metabolism, but how efficiently we activate each branch of the sympathetic system and how we alternate them. I understand slow and fast oxidation as having to do with the facility we activate better the brake or the accelerator of the system. As I am new to the balancing system, I just cannot tell you the more precise relationships between the various states of the nervous system and the mineral balance / oxidation rates. What I read is just enough to understand fully that this is absolutely related. The rest, we are here to discover it together!

I got the idea to write this post from reading this:

Copper is a seditative mineral. What oxidation type did the test say you were? Slow 1? Slow 2?
It seems like for a start you just want to increase your oxidation rate; fasting, exercising, avoiding carbs, eating more protein. Maybe etc... That should increase your oxidation type to slow 3 or 4 (a more balanced type) and from there you just work on fine tuning the ratios. So you might spend 6 months with a new diet and lifestyle then retest your hair and find magnesium is too low (i suspect all the sedative minerals will be lower if you follow that plan - even if your magnesium is good as it is, it might lower more)

We all have to work some sides of the nervous system, by whatever mean, to reach the same goal: a balance in using properly BOTH sides of our ANS, the marvelous autonomic nervous system, that some also call "the inner wise". The result at health level has a very nice name: COHERENCE.

 

[Ivy]

Where is the original post that you quote from?

 

[Canari]

march quote is from the "I got copper for everyone..." thread. Recent, you find it.

Hope my topic makes sense!

 

[tanedout]

OK I keep reading about 'potassium in the cell', and 'acidosis' etc, and not being a biochemist I'm struggling a little with getting my head around some of these concepts, yet I want to understand better, and clearly it's important with everyones case seemingly to be a little different from the next.

This short clip on Youtube seems like a nice short overview and discusses some of the concepts;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz9TgO-fmlU&t=4

So is the theory that these progestin's have either inhibited or stimulated the sodium-potassium atpase, and let to higher or lower potassium in the cell?

 

[ruprmurdoch]

good video. thanks !

 

[Canari]

I fully believe a forum is THE place to inform people with some similarities with ourself (thus also differences...)

From mattyB topic "MattyB's full protocol for alkalosis/hives/digestion"

Okay, so gbold thought it would be a good idea for me to outline what I did to fix myself using food and habits, as it might help to inform people with some similarities to myself.
...
protocol around fighting alkalosis, increasing stomach acidity, and reducing calcium/histamine exchange.

What alkalosis are we talking about? What does it mean in terms of mineral balance, co2 levels and more?

I thought the alkalosis Matty is talking about goes with resp acidosis, but it does not seem so sure, as gbolduev asked:

Matty,

You have resp acidosis?

taking HCL in resp acidosis will cause liver problems and also will cause fungus growth.

potassium chloride of course is different. And should not be taken in resp acidosis anyway.

Potassium will slow down breathing drive

Sodium goes inside of the cell along with calcium in resp acidosis to increase ventilation

I do not mean to replace this topic:
https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/the-basics-of-acid-base-disorders.231/
"The basics of acid base disorders"
I want to understand what is the context of a general word when we say we are "in alkalosis", or else this word would mean nothing but creating more hesitation. How can we know who we look like if we cannot relate through the words that are used?

 

[Canari]

Extracts... It is complicated and we are afraid to get it wrong!
As you see we have to sum up better, so that people do not get lost. I still do not have a clear idea of what is implied by the word alkalosis... I think it should always go with another word, to state where (blood or in/outside cell medium) and why (resp or met).

Or we need a consensus to be sure of the meaning when we talk among us. We need the code to be well defined for clear communication.

That's is wrong. Bicarb will make you more alkaline. So if you are in alkalosis it is the opposite of what you need.

I got this suggestion from a chemistry doctor.
....said this I really dont know, so I am just trying to find real info around...and maybe this guy who suggested me is wrong....dont take it personally)))

Sodium Bicarbonate is NaHCO3, which dissolves into Na+ and HCO3- in the body.

HCO3- is what causes metabolic alkalosis. You have metabolic alkalosis when HCO3- is high, that's the definition of the disorder. If you already have metabolic alkalosis and you take additional HCO3-, it will make the problem worse because it will drive up HCO3- even higher, making you more alkaline.

Supplementing NaHCO3 when you lack bicarb is great, which is the case for many people with chronic kidney disease who have metabolic acidosis (low bicarb). It will improve outcomes for them by balancing pH.

About what acidity are we talking about?
blood, colon, stomach, intestines ?

Haha yes i know what you mean its very complicated.

Using a blood gas test, that PH gives the acid or alkaline state. So gbold says a slow will be acidic with high co2. He says inside the cell is alkaline (too alkaline) but outside the cell is too acidic.

Good for slow oxidisers who are usually acidic then. Not good for fast oxidisers who are already alkaline

Is it not the other way round?

I've read you can get an indication of this from urine using a litmus paper, anyone suggest if this is a reliable indicator?

It’s easy to measure your pH levels using saliva or urine with litmus paper. Ideally, your pH should be slightly alkaline, in the range of 7.2 to 7.4 (just a bit more alkaline than water, which has a neutral pH of 7.0).

If your pH is lower than 7.2, you’re in a state of acidosis. By contrast, a pH above 7.43 signals excessive alkalinity, or alkalosis, which is very rare.

 

[Canari]

If the blood is alkaline, then calcium cannot be there because it won't "dissolve" in alkaline blood. So it attaches to proteins and goes inside cells (like mast cells). If a person is in acidosis, then calcium can float freely in the blood stream (serum calcium will likely be on the higher end) and it can be excreted via sweat/feces/urine to keep blood calcium within a specific range.

In that case, "in acidosis" means acidic blood, but that does not mean acidic tissues? Are tissue and blood always reverse one to the other for pH?

In this from [mention]gbolduev[/mention] it also seem that alkalosis refers to blood's pH and not tissues pH...

Potassium goes in the cell when the venous blood is more alkaline. Thus, in alkalosis potassium goes into the cell. This potassium is a receptor of a thyroid hormones and increases metabolism which increases CO2. Thus, when you increase ventilation this causes the venous blood become more alkaline and this causes potassium go into the cell, increasing your metabolism.

Just understand in alkalosis, potassium goes inside of the cell, this increases metabolism.
In acidosis potassium goes outside of the cell, it decreases metabolism. It is very obvious and logical, since metabolism increases acidity by creating CO2.
So, if you are more acidic then body will want to lower metabolism to decrease production of CO2. and if you are more alkaline body will want to increase metabolism to increase production of CO2.

In this answer to Shadow, I could not tell if this was about cell or blood.

As you see you have high progesterone and high aldosterone. Progesterone binds to aldo receptor and blocks it hence low sodium.

Aldosterone increases potassium loss, thus low potassium. You can retain sodium and potassium and you are in alkalosis and volume reduction.
...
You see we are trying to fix alkalosis and so forth. But unfortunately alkalosis supports itself, since you get a fork like this. And you cant retain minerals from food.

 

[Canari]

My explanation of the organ thing wasn't based around slow/fast oxidizer, but around acidosis vs. alkalosis - which is a definable and measurable pattern with clear physiological explanations and clear treatments. In acidosis and alkalosis there are nuances - many things affect how acidic/alkaline the blood is (multiple buffer systems), there are different types of acidosis and alkalosis, etc. There is nuance when the physiological mechanisms at the deepest levels are understood and used as defining characteristics, which gives us real information. I don't see that in the ARL system - I don't see nuance, I just see a blunt instrument.

@gbolduev I think you did relate metabolic types to acidosis and alkalosis. Of the 8 basic types, which is what in terms of acidosis and alkalosis? Those labs talk about TiSSUE content in minerals. It is what they analyze through hair. I have understood that this is the OUTSIDE cell, and not IN the cell. Right?

I also think that this alkalosis talked about is tissue alkalinity, the "liquid" the cell bathes in, and that it corresponds to blood acidosis = too high CO2 from either slow breathing or candida producing CO2.

So I think I understood that tissue alkalosis = blood acidosis = slow oxidizer...
Yes or no?

 

[Canari]

Copy from another topic:

High CO2 in blood means more acidic blood, thus respiratory acidosis. And I think it correspond to too alkaline tissues....
Got no answer when I made a complete topic about this, with a proper title, to show how we are mixed up by word use, about pH!

Cells always follow the body (typically). If you are in respiratory acidosis (high CO2, low pH/acidic), the interior of cells are likely even more acidic. They have to do this to maintain an electrical gradient to facilitate signal transduction.

I understand this: "respiratory acidosis (high CO2, low pH/acidic)", and I think you mean in blood?
"cells follow body" means they follow blood pH?
But what's about outside the cells?

I think there is inter-cellular medium, and then extra-cellular medium... So there are things that "stay at the door", because cells do not let in whatever! It also makes sense that movements come from the difference in pH.

If i make the parallel with minerals, some come in or out, and this makes the metabolic pH? @gbolduev ? And what do we see in the hair analysis? I think I understood that what is meant by "tissue" is outside the cell, and that we do not see what is IN the cell, and that would be the reason why metal toxicity is not always seen, and will be seen in hair only when it comes out of the cells...

Is it right?

 

[Canari]

I'm struggling a little with getting my head around some of these concepts

Following...
The lab for hair test answered to me that the hair analysis does not tell what is IN the cell! But what is in tissues... so what are tissues if they are not the cells? I guess they mean it tests OUTSIDE the cells, the extra-cellular milieu?

It explains that you can have toxic metals IN the cells, and they do not show in hair test, and might start to show later, when they come OUT of the cells...

Mattyb said that when you have resp acidosis, then the cell will be even more acidic, for movements to happen. So where is the alkalinity? Outside the cell? Does this mean metabolic alkalinity to comensate for respiratory acidosis? Or resp compensating the metabolic state....