Brainstorming & Ideas (PFS - Gbol)

mattyb

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833
I thought this recent study would be really interesting for most people here. [mention]gbolduev[/mention] you will absolutely find this interesting.

http://www.fasebj.org/content/31/1_Supplement/856.11.short
"Adaptation to potassium depletion in human : role of progesterone ?"

Abstract
In this study, we examined whether reduction in the intake of K+ induce lasting changes in the plasma concentration of circulating steroids. We have previously shown that plasma progesterone (PG) levels specifically increases in response to chronic and sustained K+ depletion in male and female mice. In this physiological context, progesterone regulates renal K+ handling by stimulating the expression of H,K-ATPase type 2 (HKA2) through a RU486 (PG receptor antagonist)-sensitive pathway. The human adrenal steroidogenesis strongly differs from rodents because of the presence of a CYP17 activity that metabolizes PG into 17-OH PG and may prevent its accumulation and release in the plasma. To address the role of PG in renal adaptation to K depletion in human, we designed a cross-over protocol in which healthy subjects were submitted to a 7-days K+ depleted diet in the absence (placebo period) or presence of a PG antagonist (RU486 period). We studied their renal adaptation to K+ depletion and the induced changes in plasma adrenal steroids concentrations before and 1h after stimulation by ACTH (SYNACTHENE®). Since this adaptation could be relevant in the case of severe and chronic renal hypokalemia, plasma adrenal steroids were measured in patients with chronic severe renal hypokalemia related to a congenital salt losing tubulopathy, the Gitelman syndrome.

During the two periods, a week of reduction of dietary K+ intake induced both daily urinary excretion of K+ and fractional excretion of K+ decreased by a factor 2, without affecting daily urinary excretion or fractional excretion of Na+. Under placebo condition, plasma K+ concentration decreased by 0.3 ± 0.1 mmol/l (p= 0.0180) and subjects became slightly hypokalemic, without change in plasma concentrations of sodium, chloride, bicarbonate or creatinine. As expected, plasma aldosterone decreased by 55% and more surprisingly, DHEA decreased by 20% but the other steroids concentration (Cortisol, PG, 17-OH PG, deoxycorticosterone, delat4-androstenedione) are not modified neither under basal or after SYNACTHENE® treatment. Under RU486 treatment, the decrease of the plasma K+ level is much faster than under placebo and the plasma aldosterone concentration is decreased even more than under the placebo period indicating that RU486 interferes with the regulation of the K+ balance. The basal level of steroids is similar in Gitelman patients compared to healthy volunteers. However, the stimulation of adrenal steroidogenesis by SYNACTHENE® induces a stronger rise of PG, 17-OH PG and delta4-androstenedione indicating that in Gitelman patients the 3bHSD activity is stimulated but not activated.

Altogether, these results indicate that, in men, a moderate reduction of the K+ intake does not result in a visible rise of plasma PG but the effect of RU486 and the putative stimulation of the adrenal 3bHSD-dependent steps in Gitelman patients may indicate that this hormonal system may be relevant in the regulation of K+ balance.
 

mattyb

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833
This review paper is also interesting

http://www.kidney-international.org/article/S0085-2538(15)55027-8/pdf
 

BeLikeWater

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Messages
353
There is something that I dont understand. Ig one of the pillars of the recovery is to make DHT oppose Estrogen instead of progesterone. Why are we talking about cycling RU if that will make progesterone receptors more avaiable after cycle. Meaning during cycle you could feel great Increased estrogen activity and maybe DHT to counter act estrogen but afterwards you would feel worse right? Also if finasteride is a progestin and a progestin activates the progesterone receptor, you can have the progesterone receptors downregulated while taking finas specally after long time, but when you quit it cold turkey maybe they reupregulated and maybe thats why progesterone have maken people feel worse during the cycle and better afterrwards.
 

Ghost

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Messages
90
I'm getting more and more interested in the K+ theory because it appears to be tied to Progesterone. Modulating Progesterone has been a long-term goal of mine becuase I think that it's sufficient to cause the downstream SERT density decreases and 5-HT1A autoreceptor desenitization that I still beleive causes a lot of our PSSD symptoms. Note also that Serotonin can do a lot in and out of the brain, and that this could be doing things too. Once you show that something can increase Prog, I can tie it to each and every PSSD (and basically PFS honestly) symptom.


I searched and searched for something that would control Prog, because I think that might be the next layer of the preverbal "onion" in the PSSD puzzle.

Special note here to the studies below that I highlighted, but I will include a few extra just to back up the claims that it all seems to be part of a bigger cascade, which is outlined at: https://pssdlab.wordpress.com/neurohormone-theory/

This is why Estrogen and Testosterone can reverse PSSD in rats. When people on the PSSD forum tried Estrogen, some had total symptom reversal. The problem is the cost, the danger, the hassle, and it doesn't seem to last. This means dig a step deeper. If Estrogen is protecting SERT in the POA, then find out what could mess with that. As expected, Prog can. So if we can tie that a step further backwards into K+ levels, then f*** me we're golden.



Effects of progesterone on the sexual behavior of castrated, testosterone-treated male cynomolgus monkeys (Macaca fascicularis).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9226343

Progesterone decreases mating and estradiol uptake in preoptic areas of male monkeys.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11790421

Enhanced Sexual Behaviors and Androgen Receptor Immunoreactivity in the Male Progesterone Receptor Knockout Mouse
https://academic.oup.com/endo/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/en.2005-0490





Estradiol-17 beta increases serotonin transporter (SERT) mRNA levels and the density of SERT-binding sites in female rat brain.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9105666

SSRIs act as selective brain steroidogenic stimulants (SBSSs) at low doses that are inactive on 5-HT reuptake.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19157982

Serotonin Clearance In Vivo Is Altered to a Greater Extent by Antidepressant-Induced Downregulation of the Serotonin Transporter than by Acute Blockade of this Transporter
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/15/6766.full

Evaluation of Endocrine Profile and Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testis Axis in Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor-Induced Male Sexual Dysfunction.
http://journals.lww.com/psychopharmacology/Abstract/2008/08000/Evaluation_of_Endocrine_Profile_and.9.aspx

Antidepressant-induced internalization of the serotonin transporter in serotonergic neurons
http://www.fasebj.org/content/22/6/1702.full

5-HT1A Receptor Function in Major Depressive Disorder
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2736801/

Effects of Chronic Antidepressant Treatments on Serotonin Transporter Function, Density, and mRNA Level
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/19/23/10494.full.pdf

High-Dose Testosterone Treatment Increases Serotonin Transporter Binding in Transgender People.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25497691

Serotonin transporter SERT mRNA and binding site densities in male rat brain affected by sex steroids. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169328X98002812
 

Ghost

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Messages
90
A question that I do have.

Chicken or the egg? High Prog or Low K+?

Which comes first, and I honestly don't know enough of this literature to say yet... Does K+ decrease Prog receptors? I thought I had read that here? The study above seems to paint a different picture: that lowered K+ increases Prog levels. It doesn't seem to me that decreasing Prog would lower receptor levels, but again maybe I'm missing something and I admittedly have only looked at a handful of papers in this field.
 

expendable

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Messages
133
But surely not all sufferers have high prog and low potassium? Was there ever an explanation for why that happens?
 

fablecloth

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14
expendable post_id=5388 time=1511933497 user_id=53 said:
But surely not all sufferers have high prog and low potassium? Was there ever an explanation for why that happens?

I have low progesterone and low testosterone.
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
[mention]Ghost[/mention]

From what I've seen on this forum, almost everyone with PSSD was taking citalopram or escitalopram (which is just an enantiomer of citalopram). Have you ever heard about the literature of high dose citalopram causing torsades de pointes and QT interval elongation? The FDA put out a warning on this a few years ago after a bunch of case studies started popping up. Torsades de pointes only happens when repolirization of cardiac muscles are screwed up - and one of the integral steps involves K+ regulation, and citalopram is a weak inhibitor of K+ channels.

What's even more interesting is that that citalopram produces some interesting metabolites, which may be even more problematic, and these metabolites are more likely to inhibit K+ and Ca2+ channels. So if there is strong enough inhibition of K+ channels to stop people's hearts via secondary metabolites of citalopram, then we may have a mechanism needed to (ir)reversibly modulate progesterone levels. In many of these case studies, patients present with hypokalemia (low K+).

What we need now are some results from people with PSSD, to see if they have high or low prog levels. One would expect either high prog levels and some degree of prog desensitization, or low prog levels and some degree of hypersensitization. Since the drop in K+ levels come first, I would more likely suspect that we'd see hypersensitization with current low prog levels - almost the opposite of what we see in people with PFS who have high prog and low receptor sensitivity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550142/pdf/13181_2009_Article_BF03160963.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298934/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003392810001757
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934311010023
 

mattyb

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833
This would also explain how some people have used finaesteride to cure PSSD. It's a progestin, it would desensitize prog receptors.

I would wonder if just taking high dose progesterone for 2-3 weeks and then going off would be sufficient to desensitize receptors. My guess is you would feel like shit for a few weeks and then snap back.
 

Jaxx

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Messages
683
Many used paxil too, it really seems to happen with all major ssri’s. I only recall one person trying prog for a short period and he indeed felt crap.
Many pssd blood test available btw, very often high prog
 

mattyb

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Messages
833
Jaxx post_id=5411 time=1511963169 user_id=61 said:
Many used paxil too, it really seems to happen with all major ssri’s. I only recall one person trying prog for a short period and he indeed felt crap.
Many pssd blood test available btw, very often high prog

Most SSRI's modulate potassium channels. In animals you can use potassium channel activators to essentially reverse the effects of most antidepressants. Paxil elongates QRS intervals, which can be caused by hyperkalemia. So we may see different blood test results based on which drugs the people took. Can we get some people with PSSD to share which drugs they took and their subsequent blood tests? If you have prog, potassium, and hair tests - please share alongside the drug you took.

The important take-home is that SSRI's have tons of effects outside of their reuptake inhibition.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1472-8206.1996.tb00610.x/full
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00443420?LI=true
 

Helen

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mattyb post_id=5408 time=1511962896 user_id=95 said:
@Ghost

From what I've seen on this forum, almost everyone with PSSD was taking citalopram or escitalopram (which is just an enantiomer of citalopram). Have you ever heard about the literature of high dose citalopram causing torsades de pointes and QT interval elongation? The FDA put out a warning on this a few years ago after a bunch of case studies started popping up. Torsades de pointes only happens when repolirization of cardiac muscles are screwed up - and one of the integral steps involves K+ regulation, and citalopram is a weak inhibitor of K+ channels.

What's even more interesting is that that citalopram produces some interesting metabolites, which may be even more problematic, and these metabolites are more likely to inhibit K+ and Ca2+ channels. So if there is strong enough inhibition of K+ channels to stop people's hearts via secondary metabolites of citalopram, then we may have a mechanism needed to (ir)reversibly modulate progesterone levels. In many of these case studies, patients present with hypokalemia (low K+).

What we need now are some results from people with PSSD, to see if they have high or low prog levels. One would expect either high prog levels and some degree of prog desensitization, or low prog levels and some degree of hypersensitization. Since the drop in K+ levels come first, I would more likely suspect that we'd see hypersensitization with current low prog levels - almost the opposite of what we see in people with PFS who have high prog and low receptor sensitivity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550142/pdf/13181_2009_Article_BF03160963.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298934/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003392810001757
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934311010023



These are the exact cases I outlined. Hypersensitive or the opposite. There are protocols outlined for both. in the beginning of this thread.

I explained the potassium theory from the beginning and outlined the cases. Potassium is controled by aldosterone, progesterone and cortisol. High cortisol will bind to aldo receptors and cause potassium waste. Usually it is done when potassium level is high in the cell, and this helps to lower potassium in the cell and raise sodium to be balanced.

Now imagine you take some progestin which does not really convert into cortisol as progesterone does.

This causes potassium to go way up, This tells the body to get cortisol from somewhere to slow down the thyroid effect.

Body is using up all its iron and zinc for cortisol conversions. Then all of a sudden you take away finasteride. Potassium falls to zero. but Cortisol stays since serotonin is high and MAO A inhibited. And this does not allow your body to use iron

And boom all your axes just stall.

And also you get some sort of sideroblastic anemia. Same as you get from progesterone. Progesterone leads to sideroblastic anemia. IT is basically when there is not enough oxygen for the speed of your metabolism. THIS IS WHY VITAMIN B6 helps some people. And I would assume vitamin b2

You get the same anemia, when you take zinc , when you have low bioavailable iron. YOu get castrated immediately
 

mattyb

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833
gbolduev post_id=5414 time=1511964468 user_id=90 said:
These are the exact cases I outlined. Hypersensitive or the opposite. There are protocols outlined for both. in the beginning of this thread.

Well, I guess people just need to get prog levels tested and then try out a treatment based on that. Sounds pretty straightforward, but I've seen very few people here actually trying out those initial protocols.
 

Helen

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mattyb post_id=5416 time=1511965067 user_id=95 said:
gbolduev post_id=5414 time=1511964468 user_id=90 said:
These are the exact cases I outlined. Hypersensitive or the opposite. There are protocols outlined for both. in the beginning of this thread.

Well, I guess people just need to get prog levels tested and then try out a treatment based on that. Sounds pretty straightforward, but I've seen very few people here actually trying out those initial protocols.

This is exactly what I told them to do. I am personally just doing mineral balancing, since the receptors are the minerals. not the actual quantity of the receptors.
 

Helen

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I suspect, finasteride causes the cell to retain iron. and now cortisol is raised even with low potassium . This causes the body to waste potassium even in the low metabolism scenario, which also raises progesterone.

I am still testing. But tanking potassium tanks cells iron, same is done with copper , or vitamin b2. Progesterone increases MAO< this tanks serotonin. Which lowers ACTH, and forces the body to drop iron from the cell. Manganese can also do this. since it is iron antagonist. this is why zinc causes manganese deficiency . And that is probably why progesterone or progestin will cause it also

In any case, I will outline the mineral protocol. Otherwise you can easily use RU, or dexamethasone with progesterone routes.
 

Helen

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https://jhu.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/acquired-sideroblastic-anaemia-following-progesterone-therapy-3
 

JonnyCraig

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Messages
250
Mr. gbolduev.

If one wanted to use Progesterone, long-term (against hairloss).

Which minerals/supplements would one want to ingest alongside?

Would staying on 20-30mg of zinc and 10mg of manganese a day still be beneficial?

Increase sodium intake.

What else should be added?
 

bruschi11

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mattyb post_id=5416 time=1511965067 user_id=95 said:
gbolduev post_id=5414 time=1511964468 user_id=90 said:
These are the exact cases I outlined. Hypersensitive or the opposite. There are protocols outlined for both. in the beginning of this thread.

Well, I guess people just need to get prog levels tested and then try out a treatment based on that. Sounds pretty straightforward, but I've seen very few people here actually trying out those initial protocols.

I just don't get it. There are hundreds of PFS dudes writing on solvepfs, PropeciaHelp, and on here. I don't see why more haven't given this stuff a shot just yet. It's pretty sad to be honest- we need more people trialing stuff and experimenting.

I was a really bad case with the CFS/mycoplasma/ammonia issues, but I can proudly say I'm all in on this methodology. I am on day 3 of a 3 day RU cycle. I went 75mg, 25mg, 25mg- this morning after a night of RIFING which normally leaves me waking up feeling quite beat up (herxheimer reaction, body full of toxins due to pathogen die off), I woke up with the stiffest erection I've probably had since I got PFS. Morning erections have been pretty awful since my fast as well (which concluded 16 days ago). This was nice.

The plan from here for me and what many PFS guys should be doing is experimenting. After this cycle I'll know the effect of 75, 25, 25 on my body 2 weeks after an extended fast. Next time in a month or so, I won't fast before other than a intermittent/alternative day here and there, but will likely go low dose with 15-25mg per day for the 3 days. From there, mineral balancing, more experimentation. I'm only 20-30% overall so I'm sure its going to take some time and there may be some frustration at times. This will be a journey.

I know a lot of people are scared to mess with drugs due to their original reaction to fin or trust a dude online ( [mention]gbolduev[/mention] duev ). But what else are we supposed to do? We lost a part a major part of ourselves with PFS- so much life and happiness we are missing out on. We need to take risks and give this a shot. I don't even see the risk here- honestly is there documentation of any guy ever having a horrible reaction to RU486 or a mineral balancing protocol? Seriously guys.

All I know is that I'm beyond belief thankful we have this site here experimenting while witnessing the significant improvements in several guys here. @5alpha has been in PFS for several years if I recall correctly, same with @[mention]Scenes[/mention] . Something is happening to us positively for sure employing these practices. Cannot wait to see what the future brings and I really hope more guys jump on and begin experimenting here as well.