"Caffeine turns hard workers into slackers" Study finds

Nina

Well-Known Member
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960
Came across this: Caffeine Turns Hard Workers into Slackers

"Meanwhile, when the lazy rats were given amphetamines, they became hard workers. Oddly, the same effect was not seen for the caffeine.

"The good news is that caffeine doesn't make the lazy rats any worse, but it definitely decreases the workers' willingness to put in the work," Hosking said.


Pretty interesting if you ask me seeing that people preach caffeine for productivity these days. The fact that amphetamines made them more productive isn't shocking though.
 

supernature

Member
Messages
921
:)) Are you trying to convince amphets are good and god old coffee is not ?

Hard workers abusing on coffeine for 1-2 decades now still use it, the only difference is either they added blood pressure prescription pills or they had heart burn pain.
Amphet hard workers still beating the horse but their teeth bill increased over time, ive even seen eaten out teeths on some who cant have dental services after amphets regular and long term usage.
I swear those kind of topics were discussed by RPF community, i remm cabergoline, and other unknown names to me, i even see here and there some of them mentioned even on this forum.
 

Walker

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Messages
509
I used to abuse adderall early in my career after my military service. Also took modafinil while serving. They both made me extremely productive. I miss those both, but they’re horrible for you. My years of taking adderall, previous SSRI use, and shitty diet probably contributed to saw palmetto being the nail in my coffin health wise in 2016.
 

raven

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Messages
493
I used to abuse adderall early in my career after my military service. Also took modafinil while serving. They both made me extremely productive. I miss those both, but they’re horrible for you. My years of taking adderall, previous SSRI use, and shitty diet probably contributed to saw palmetto being the nail in my coffin health wise in 2016.

You're doing better now though right?
 

Walker

Well-Known Member
Messages
509
You're doing better now though right?

From PFS and it's related symptoms, yes - I'm still completely cured from that. Sexual and mental function have been fully restored to what they were before my run in with SP.

I'm still dealing with the GI/gut effects of having no gallbladder on my digestion and post-traumatic stress syndrome from my military service, yes. Looking back, I was in very shitty health before PFS, I just didn't notice it until an event like that.
 

supernature

Member
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921
Lets see how many people have the guts to admit they were literally abusing on diff kinds of substances for years and all that tanked their immune system to the point where even tiny dose of particular drug at particular moment throw their metabolism in the cabbage !?
 

Nina

Well-Known Member
Messages
960
What a useless “study”. And who gives a fuck if it makes workers less “productive”. As if the only goal is to make better slaves.

Lets hope your mood gets better soon, jeez.
 

MNK99

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Messages
5,356
I used to abuse adderall early in my career after my military service. Also took modafinil while serving. They both made me extremely productive. I miss those both, but they’re horrible for you. My years of taking adderall, previous SSRI use, and shitty diet probably contributed to saw palmetto being the nail in my coffin health wise in 2016.

We spoke about this and I didn't want to admit it but yeah, years of dex for finishing ugrad and beyond probably helped contribute to making my crash and depression super severe from finasteride. Also normally I have good to a LOT of energy, my CFS with post fin syndrome was insane. I was dead tired, depressed, suicidal, and in bed like 7-10months. It was crazy. I do like amphetamines but I like teeth and hair better. I try and take the minimal dose and go weeks and months without it. Save for important exams and I never take adderall (more L-amp action than what I take, Dexedrine). I can see why even JQD said amps are catastrophic in our condition, but he was propped up by drugs. I've done 2-3months with NOTHING not even asthma inhalers, adhd, etc. I was pretty good. Using it to study some stuff for now. I mean I did 15-18 months no coffee most no dexedrine, no coffee most that time. 12months no alcohol... etc, so I can definitely quit it whenever. TEI can help it's issues alone, but yes, it's best not to pile things on.

But I am not joking at all when I say cocaine feels less harsh. There's a reason almost everyone who does amps outside of people with prescriptions do it 2-4x a year. Like MDMA, not all day everyday. Maybe if I'm prescribed 20-40mg a day and I take 5-20mg, and often zero, cycle citocholine, and or a bit of coffee instead, I can minimize damage. Also getting a nightguard/ mouthguard (which I had a few yrs ago) for sleep. Taking things like Mg, and the like. Adderalls racemic mixed amphetamine salts and far less isolated for dopaminergic affects compared to D-Amphetamine. D-amp obviously is not side effectless. I say cocaine's less bad, because it's a NDRI (among other things) so tolerance doesn't involve actual structural brain changes unlike slight increases to amphetamine. If I recall correctly. Tolerance increases that last more than a couple days are potentially causing structural changes, alterations in gene expression, toxicity, among other things. Also increasing blood brain permeability could not have helped prevent PFS, it may have made it more likely and more severe (maybe that was Bipolar II/ADHD, random genetics, who knows).

That said Dex does help me a lot... but I just need to be careful and there's been a few times since getting better from PFS I quit. Mostly I didn't care too too much, when I was living with my folks. It definitely is helpful for getting work done, definitely is detrimental to some of my work, definitely is helpful to what I find most difficult (deadlines, studying something). In many ways it's probably good I was out of PSSD 4-6yrs and out of grade school like 7 years before taking them habitually at all.

I like stims better than other drugs but like all drugs they need to be respected. My long term average dose is 16.66mg tho I was prescribed 40mg several years, which shows it's a pretty harsh drug. Helps my mood and a lot of things, but if it gets out of hand, I'm getting rid of it. Didn't take it for 5-6mo or so of TEI, and won't in future cycles. My school situation was totally fucked up but clearly without effexor I wouldn't have transferred in as badly a way, and stims took it to another level, helped me sit down, and actually put my head down and focus but yes for sure they're not for everyone. And even people who really like them/benefit from them, definitely do not always love them. They're a serious drug. IN certain ways I'm happier off of it. In other ways I'm happier for managing my life better, but in a perfect world or if I could do certain things without it, I would. Possibly seems like a cop out but I've tried years and years. I'd say if 1 million are prescribed it, it should be more like 200 000 or something. It should be like 1/30 kids in a class maybe, definitely not 4-5-6/30.

Adderall started my hair loss, it took 2-3 days max. I threw it away and only used it a few times over the next 5 years. Other things that hurt hair were dexedrine (less, maintained it most that time, and quit like 40% of that time, because of PFS and breaks), and Lamotrigine (raped my hair). Maybe grew some back... but definitely it's different. (i started with way more, so despite having decent hair for age, It was more, zero scalp showing or near zero). Crashing on fin, during surgery, this and that, and seeing 20-40 bald spots was pretty crazy. Money would have solved that easily = just get better docs, just get genetic testing, fly around see PFS doctors pre taking finasteride, and have FUE money set aside in cash (for peace of mind).
 
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Nina

Well-Known Member
Messages
960
We spoke about this and I didn't want to admit it but yeah, years of dex for finishing ugrad and beyond probably helped contribute to making my crash and depression super severe from finasteride. Also normally I have good to a LOT of energy, my CFS with post fin syndrome was insane. I was dead tired, depressed, suicidal, and in bed like 7-10months. It was crazy. I do like amphetamines but I like teeth and hair better. I try and take the minimal dose and go weeks and months without it. Save for important exams and I never take adderall (more L-amp action than what I take, Dexedrine). I can see why even JQD said amps are catastrophic in our condition, but he was propped up by drugs. I've done 2-3months with NOTHING not even asthma inhalers, adhd, etc. I was pretty good. Using it to study some stuff for now.

But I am not joking at all when I say cocaine feels less harsh. There's a reason almost everyone who does amps outside of people with prescriptions do it 2-4x a year. Like MDMA, not all day everyday. Maybe if I'm prescribed 20-40mg a day and I take 5-20mg, and often zero, cycle citocholine, and or a bit of coffee instead, I can minimize damage. Also getting a nightguard/ mouthguard (which I had a few yrs ago) for sleep. Taking things like Mg, and the like. Adderalls racemic mixed amphetamine salts and far less isolated for dopaminergic affects compared to D-Amphetamine. D-amp obviously is not side effectless. I say cocaine's less bad, because it's a NDRI (among other things) so tolerance doesn't involve actual structural brain changes unlike slight increases to amphetamine. If I recall correctly. Tolerance increases that last more than a couple days are potentially causing structural changes, alterations in gene expression, toxicity, among other things. Also increasing blood brain permeability could not have helped prevent PFS, it may have made it more likely and more severe (maybe that was Bipolar II/ADHD, random genetics, who knows).

That said Dex does help me a lot... but I just need to be careful and there's been a few times since getting better from PFS I quit. Mostly I didn't care too too much, when I was living with my folks. It definitely is helpful for getting work done, definitely is detrimental to some of my work, definitely is helpful to what I find most difficult (deadlines, studying something). In many ways it's probably good I was out of PSSD 4-6yrs and out of grade school like 7 years before taking them habitually at all.

I like stims better than other drugs but like all drugs they need to be respected. My long term average dose is 16.66mg tho I was prescribed 40mg several years, which shows it's a pretty harsh drug. Helps my mood and a lot of things, but if it gets out of hand, I'm getting rid of it. Didn't take it for 5-6mo or so of TEI, and won't in future cycles. My school situation was totally fucked up but clearly without effexor I wouldn't have transferred in as badly a way, and stims took it to another level, helped me sit down, and actually put my head down and focus but yes for sure they're not for everyone. And even people who really like them/benefit from them, definitely do not always love them. They're a serious drug. IN certain ways I'm happier off of it. In other ways I'm happier for managing my life better, but in a perfect world or if I could do certain things without it, I would. Possibly seems like a cop out but I've tried years and years. I'd say if 1 million are prescribed it, it should be more like 200 000 or something. It should be like 1/30 kids in a class maybe, definitely not 4-5-6/30.

Adderall started my hair loss, it took 2-3 days max. I threw it away and only used it a few times over the next 5 years. Other things that hurt hair were dexedrine (less, maintained it most that time, and quit like 40% of that time, because of PFS and breaks), and Lamotrigine (raped my hair). Maybe grew some back... but definitely it's different. (i started with way more, so despite having decent hair for age, It was more, zero scalp showing or near zero). Crashing on fin, during surgery, this and that, and seeing 20-40 bald spots was pretty crazy. Money would have solved that easily = just get better docs, just get genetic testing, fly around see PFS doctors pre taking finasteride, and have FUE money set aside in cash (for peace of mind).

I think with stimulants it's important to keep potassium and magnesium intake high as they tend to deplete them.

Oh and take breaks + SLEEP
 

MNK99

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Messages
5,356
Yeah been doing that. Definitely, still sleeping 6 hrs a day. Just not at the "right" time, but I've always been like that past 16 or so. Before that I'd stay up till 1am and be tired as hell. Now if I sleep at a messed up time like 8am to 2pm, at least I'm paying my bills and not going to an office. And* I can kind of study whenever. BUT* with a more fixed/"normal to society" schedule... this will take some adjustment. I don't fear it tho. Electrolytes/simple protocol I did like 10months + last year and a bit this year. (old protocol/ removed possibly). That time rotates tho and probably isn't every single day. I do crash at times and sleep a lot more but I feel fine.

What hurts more and makes me feel more tired, is definitely coffee. I think it's trash for ADHD. All the coffee in the world plus Effexor XR -- didn't let me study nor attend any labs on time during biological science. Maybe I started university too young back then, or wasn't mature enough to do it, but I remember basically trying to study and never actually doing so. Tho Effexor did make me manic like a year... so that definitely was a factor (among many other terrible things happening). If coffee didn't help digestion I don't think I'd use it at all. I didn't on TEI, and probably could abstain now...mostly by throwing it away and going 21d without it and so forth.

Definitely can cause some premature aging a bit in some senses... like thinner eyebrows, hair, grey hair... definitely does worsen short term memory, working memory a bit though enhances learning and some long term memory things. Definitely is too hard a drug to give every random 7 year old and most 20 and 25 year olds for that matter too.
it can be taken but increases maintenance of self care which is fine for me but it's a slippery slope.

I would not be surprised if amphetamine abuse alone can cause chronic fatigue syndrome and suicidality. Obviously use didn't cause CFS in your case, Nina (because it was long after that you used it). Also in my case that was definitely finasteride because I've seen withdrawal from hard stims, alcohol, effexor etc, and while they were all bad. They weren't like a year long (I had to put up a fight with most those too, but it paled in comparison a bit to the efforts here).
 
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Brute

Member
Messages
35
Energy drinks, coffee and even caffeine powder all work well for me if I eat enough and get enough nutrition and sugars, I agree with Ninas bae Peat and her favourite community, the Peatarians, in that regard fully, otherwise it probably gets absorbed too quickly and you get very jittery and crash later. That might be the problem for the rats, the caffeine was likely not given alongside food and even if it did, the calories probably stayed the same. For many people caffeine/coffee also serves as an absolute crutch for being chronically sleep-deprived and they can't function without it. In that case I'd suggest to ditch it and try to live another way. However, if it just adds some better mood and some more 'productivity' without any real drawbacks I don't really see why you shouldn't consume any.

Never tried adderall or plan to do so. If you want more productivity or energy without caffeine I think chocolate*, fruits, juice (fruit juice, you druggies) and mineral water are sufficient and can actually give a huge boost.

* it contains some caffeine I know, stop nit-picking
 
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Nina

Well-Known Member
Messages
960
Honestly caffeine/coffee is awful. I have no clue why i started drinking it and i don't get why everyone does really, it just makes it hard to sleep but doesn't give me any energy or a mental boost or whatever. All you get is insomnia and withdrawal headaches from hell LOL

I quit a few days ago and the headaches were horrible
 

Nina

Well-Known Member
Messages
960
Energy drinks, coffee and even caffeine powder all work well for me if I eat enough and get enough nutrition and sugars, I agree with Ninas bae Peat and her favourite community, the Peatarians, in that regard fully, otherwise it probably gets absorbed too quickly and you get very jittery and crash later. That might be the problem for the rats, the caffeine was likely not given alongside food and even if it did, the calories probably stayed the same. For many people caffeine/coffee also serves as an absolute crutch for being chronically sleep-deprived and they can't function without it. In that case I'd suggest to ditch it and try to live another way. However, if it just adds some better mood and some more 'productivity' without any real drawbacks I don't really see why you shouldn't consume any.

Never tried adderall or plan to do so. If you want more productivity or energy without caffeine I think chocolate*, fruits, juice (fruit juice, you druggies) and mineral water are sufficient and can actually give a huge boost.

* it contains some caffeine I know, stop nit-picking

Chocolate has caffeine aswell
 

vicecaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
256
Interesting how your experience is the opposite of mine @Nina
I always assumed one was better off without coffee but I decided to give it a try about three months ago and I have nothing but benefits to report from several cups of coffee daily

Something was uncomfortable the first week I introduced coffee to my diet, It felt as though my liver was in a "detox process" for lack of a better term but there's also that study showing that ingestion of caffeine is followed by a spike of cortisol until... about a week after of daily coffee when the cortisol spike basically becomes non-existent.

So what I describe as a "liver detoxing effect" could have been a spike of cortisol that vanished after a week


Still, after that week I became in love with coffee. My baseline is quite high recently but coffee definitely added value to it and I use it as a tool just like I use cold showers and HIIT

It keeps me full of energy and focused all day long while I'd usually feel tired after a few hours of work, plus it's definite cognitive and mood-enhancing effects.

I did the experience of four days without coffee last week and except the lack of its boosting effect, I did not notice any withdrawal symptoms, headaches or dramatic drop in energy


Does anyone has a suggestion for a coffee maker? Plan on upgrading and let go of my Espresso machine
 
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Bankai900

Member
Messages
23
I've the same as Nina. Coffee makes me more tired, I love it cuz I relate to coffee as chillout moment. But it leaves me.worse off.
Interesting tho is that I'm reacting extreme to anything else stimulating. Microdoses of amphetamines or energy drinks like RedBull/Rockstar make me feel absolutely amazing(am avoiding them).
 

Aleksandr

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,285
I've never drunk coffee regularly (like once a year maybe, and i'm 27 lol), and I think the reason was evidenced on my hair test: already high adrenal ratio.

So caffeine would just crash me faster (i usually naturally crashed pretty hard around 2-3pm).

Even the smell off coffee makes me feel sick. Although it could be something to do with my liver being messed up by accutane too, and the coffee doing something there. Not sure.
 

MNK99

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,356
@vicecaz Aeropress on a budget. Great travel machine. I use it inverted. Or Moka Pot or ... something this guy Lew Later recommends, aeropress is the best tho. A classic (maybe Bodum or whoever's hot right now) French Press or Aeropress make like -10/10 coffee so id get those.

Breville or similar for movable espresso machines with pressure and grinding and all that built into it. Breville's great for grinders too.
 
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supernature

Member
Messages
921
They say drug addiction like heroin and other hardcore drugs is due to lack of proper neurotransmitters so people see a short gateaway from reality by taking those drugs.

I winder if usage of stimulants and productivity enhancement as you call them comes from a point of low power output from the metabolism and this is a quick fix for the situation.

It looks like lots of people want to achieve more and better and thats why they reached for stimulants and used them for years. Its either all they are quiet ambitious or just their metabolism started to give them the needed output to match their needs.