Constant chest pains after taking Vitamin K and D.

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
5,415
Thanks @Helen yeah my ferrin is very high, almost twice the top of range. I’ll try this with copper & the other suggestions later this week (starting off slow) & report back!

I am not sure about copper yet. I am deciding if it is best to do with copper or B2. Orion seems to do great on B2 after b1 , instead of copper.. I mean he first loaded on b1 huge with electrolytes and potassium. and then turned around to more b2. and doing good. I fixed myself with this a month ago. SO I want to see his ferritin, if ferritin is lowerd, then this is the best route.

if not , then we need copper. with it.



So I would want to see his ferritin @Orion please test your ferritin for us, it is very crucial, even for you.
 
Last edited:

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
5,415
@tanedout we can try it together, if you want. Just post in your thread. Can you measure ferritin while we are doing it?
 

tanedout

Well-Known Member
Messages
538
@tanedout we can try it together, if you want. Just post in your thread. Can you measure ferritin while we are doing it?

No problem, I can get it tested when needed. I'm thinking of giving the copper route a go as I'm sure recently when I started eating dark chocolate over a few days I felt pretty good and more sociable, so I'll get some more & see if I can repeat that and if so will slowly increase the intake along with potassium & magnesium (my TEI also suggested copper rich foods and copper supplements too)
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Messages
330
I had chest and back of neck(spine) pain for a while, especially when sneezing.

This went away when I stopped supplementing vitamin k, magnesium, calcium citrate combo...

I wonder if none pfs people have similar reactions.
 

Hevel

Member
Messages
20
Are you avoiding calcium? That's made the biggest difference for me - almost completely solved the issue. Even small amounts causes pain to come back, and increases heart rate and gives me a 'can't relax/stressed' feeling. I'm taking some D3 and that is potentially helping - certainly doesn't seem to be making it worse.

I've also added in potassium chloride again - just small amounts. Always makes tinnitus worse shortly after taking though which is weird. I might try adding in magnesium too like you're doing.
Yes, I dropped dairy completely after I realized milk is worsening my condition, right now I'm only getting calcium from broccoli and mineral water, I was eating a very high calcium diet up until then, I was getting close to 3g of Calcium every day so my ratio of Cal:Mg was 10 to 1, I followed this Ray Peat diet for years, so by the end of it I was extremely deficient in Magnesium and adding vitamin D and K on top of it just sent me over the edge.

The Magnesium I found most useful was the Biglycinate form, I tried Taurate, Glycinate, Chloride and Citrate and they were not as effective, as for Vitamin D I'm using a uvb light and making sure to get at least 30 minutes of direct sunlight every day, I don't think I will be using synthetic D3 or K until I'm sure I'm close to a full recovery, but I am looking to add more things to my stack, I just do it one supplement at a time to monitor my reaction.
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Okay I think I've got this shit figured out.

MK4 selectively accumulates in the brain, pancreas, sternum and salivary glands. Following my OD with MK-4 three years ago, I had very bad anxiety (brain), bad digestion (pancreas), chest pain (sternum), and eventually teeth pain (salivary glands).

Contrary to popular belief Vitamin K's primary mechanism isn't in calcium retention. Vitamin K is used for gamma-glutamyl-carboxylation, which chelates serum calcium between two protein heads and deposits it in long bone (osteocalcin) or uses that calcium to drive thrombosis. There are also lots of GLA proteins in mitochondria, and the suggestion is that calcium may promote metabolic activity in mitochondria.

So Vitamin K is a calcium chelator. It does not deposit calcium into most cell types. It binds it to GLA proteins and activates them. So it actually causes localized decalcification and hypocalcemia. If it accumulates in the sternum, you get sternal pain, which I think actually stems from decalcification of the sternal cartilage, which causes hypermobility of the rib cage and pain in the costosternal joints. I've had two chiropractors see me since this happened, and both said that my rib laxity was crazy (never had any chiros say that beforehand). If it accumulates in the salivary glands, it chelates salivary calcium (saliva has a high calcium content to keep teeth mineralized, so without calcium you get teeth pain and possible dental carries). If it accumulates in the pancreas, you get hypocalcemia, and calcium is needed to produce protein digesting enzymes (which is why I couldn't digest any proteins without some kind of horrible skin reaction until I fixed my digestion). And if it's in the blood, it will cause thrombosis - thickening of the blood. In the brain though, you actually get higher sphingolipid content and better myelination. Hypocalcemia in the brain would make for more pronounced stress response, but I hate to simplify the brain - I'm sure it is much more complex depending on the areas most effected and most likely to retain K2 (which we don't know yet). Increasing dietary calcium wouldn't actually increase intracellular calcium, since Vitamin K is present in the blood - dietary calcium would first hit the serum where it would increase thrombosis (clotting, blood thickening). Then whatever calcium is leftover would go into normal calcium processes.

Unfortunately for those of us that took MK4 - MK4 is stored longer in the body than all other types of vitamin K. All we can do is take strategies to mitigate some of these problems until we work the MK4 out of our systems.

Chris Masterjohn did publish a paper on the reciprocal relationship between Vitamin D and K, saying that the symptoms of excess vitamin D may be entirely due to depletion of Vitamin K. I've certainly had a lot of success with sunlight, and I've replaced that with about 10,000iu/day of vitamin D since it's gotten colder and less sunny with good effects (although not as good as sunlight directly on the sternum). I think vitamin D is central to depleting vitamin K2 faster, and localizing it to the sternum where most of the symptoms stem from would be ideal. Vitamin D will also upregulate osteocalcin synthesis, which vitamin K carboxylates to carry calcium into the bone, so it uses up vitamin K away from doing damage in other areas (sternum, salivary glands, brain).

I think in terms of mitigating side effects, low-dose aspirin may be a good temporary strategy in preventing thrombosis and keeping the blood thin. I've been using xylitol mints with calcium lactate to get rid of teeth pain, and they've worked magnificently (I take about 4-6/day and use them as a mouth wash - never swallowing them). I think avoiding calcium as much as possible isn't a good strategy long term. I did it for over a year, and things got better for a while, but much later on some symptoms started getting worse (primarily teeth pain). I've since re-introduced small amounts of calcium and dairy and things have been good. I do notice my heart has to work harder when I eat a lot of dairy - I think this is from the increase in coagulation (clotting) that comes from excess calcium. As the blood thickens, the heart needs to pump much harder to push things around. I've found taking consistent low-dose aspirin prevents this completely. Aspirin stops the conversion of vitamin K epoxide back to it's active form, so it's excreted fast.

As far as anxiety, I've found that has gotten much better since controlling my other symptoms. It will peak in occasionally, and I'm definitely more hyperactive overall now than when I was younger. Which is actually welcome, because life is busy as hell and I have the energy to do things without always needing coffee like everyone else I know. I've found that any residual anxiety I've had has gotten better with adding calcium back in my diet as well.

In line with all of this, I've recently cut out foods high in Vitamin K. So no leafy greens mostly. Haven't noticed much of a change honestly, probably because it's a recent change and the majority of K1 is never digested and just excreted out.

The main takeaway is to pump up the Vitamin D and sun especially, lower K intake, don't fuck with calcium intake too much (600-800mg/day is probably good), and take some low-dose aspirin. And if you experience teeth pain or dental carries, xylitol + calcium lactate mints will hold them at bay until things get better.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
5,415
Okay I think I've got this shit figured out.

MK4 selectively accumulates in the brain, pancreas, sternum and salivary glands. Following my OD with MK-4 three years ago, I had very bad anxiety (brain), bad digestion (pancreas), chest pain (sternum), and eventually teeth pain (salivary glands).

Contrary to popular belief Vitamin K's primary mechanism isn't in calcium retention. Vitamin K is used for gamma-glutamyl-carboxylation, which chelates serum calcium between two protein heads and deposits it in long bone (osteocalcin) or uses that calcium to drive thrombosis. There are also lots of GLA proteins in mitochondria, and the suggestion is that calcium may promote metabolic activity in mitochondria.

So Vitamin K is a calcium chelator. It does not deposit calcium into most cell types. It binds it to GLA proteins and activates them. So it actually causes localized decalcification and hypocalcemia. If it accumulates in the sternum, you get sternal pain, which I think actually stems from decalcification of the sternal cartilage, which causes hypermobility of the rib cage and pain in the costosternal joints. I've had two chiropractors see me since this happened, and both said that my rib laxity was crazy (never had any chiros say that beforehand). If it accumulates in the salivary glands, it chelates salivary calcium (saliva has a high calcium content to keep teeth mineralized, so without calcium you get teeth pain and possible dental carries). If it accumulates in the pancreas, you get hypocalcemia, and calcium is needed to produce protein digesting enzymes (which is why I couldn't digest any proteins without some kind of horrible skin reaction until I fixed my digestion). And if it's in the blood, it will cause thrombosis - thickening of the blood. In the brain though, you actually get higher sphingolipid content and better myelination. Hypocalcemia in the brain would make for more pronounced stress response, but I hate to simplify the brain - I'm sure it is much more complex depending on the areas most effected and most likely to retain K2 (which we don't know yet). Increasing dietary calcium wouldn't actually increase intracellular calcium, since Vitamin K is present in the blood - dietary calcium would first hit the serum where it would increase thrombosis (clotting, blood thickening). Then whatever calcium is leftover would go into normal calcium processes.

Unfortunately for those of us that took MK4 - MK4 is stored longer in the body than all other types of vitamin K. All we can do is take strategies to mitigate some of these problems until we work the MK4 out of our systems.

Chris Masterjohn did publish a paper on the reciprocal relationship between Vitamin D and K, saying that the symptoms of excess vitamin D may be entirely due to depletion of Vitamin K. I've certainly had a lot of success with sunlight, and I've replaced that with about 10,000iu/day of vitamin D since it's gotten colder and less sunny with good effects (although not as good as sunlight directly on the sternum). I think vitamin D is central to depleting vitamin K2 faster, and localizing it to the sternum where most of the symptoms stem from would be ideal. Vitamin D will also upregulate osteocalcin synthesis, which vitamin K carboxylates to carry calcium into the bone, so it uses up vitamin K away from doing damage in other areas (sternum, salivary glands, brain).

I think in terms of mitigating side effects, low-dose aspirin may be a good temporary strategy in preventing thrombosis and keeping the blood thin. I've been using xylitol mints with calcium lactate to get rid of teeth pain, and they've worked magnificently (I take about 4-6/day and use them as a mouth wash - never swallowing them). I think avoiding calcium as much as possible isn't a good strategy long term. I did it for over a year, and things got better for a while, but much later on some symptoms started getting worse (primarily teeth pain). I've since re-introduced small amounts of calcium and dairy and things have been good. I do notice my heart has to work harder when I eat a lot of dairy - I think this is from the increase in coagulation (clotting) that comes from excess calcium. As the blood thickens, the heart needs to pump much harder to push things around. I've found taking consistent low-dose aspirin prevents this completely. Aspirin stops the conversion of vitamin K epoxide back to it's active form, so it's excreted fast.

As far as anxiety, I've found that has gotten much better since controlling my other symptoms. It will peak in occasionally, and I'm definitely more hyperactive overall now than when I was younger. Which is actually welcome, because life is busy as hell and I have the energy to do things without always needing coffee like everyone else I know. I've found that any residual anxiety I've had has gotten better with adding calcium back in my diet as well.

In line with all of this, I've recently cut out foods high in Vitamin K. So no leafy greens mostly. Haven't noticed much of a change honestly, probably because it's a recent change and the majority of K1 is never digested and just excreted out.

The main takeaway is to pump up the Vitamin D and sun especially, lower K intake, don't fuck with calcium intake too much (600-800mg/day is probably good), and take some low-dose aspirin. And if you experience teeth pain or dental carries, xylitol + calcium lactate mints will hold them at bay until things get better.




Calcium will never go up in blood in alkalosis. This is why you felt worse on k2. since k2 takes calcium out of the blood

K2 lowers already low ionized calcium in alkalosis, THUS causes anxiety.

this is why aspirin by increasing ionized calcium helps you.


but you need to fix alkalosis , and then your ionized calcium will be HUGE in blood


Or take calcium CHORIDE, which increases ionized calcium.


Dont forget in alkalosis they replace potassium or sodium( depending on alkalosis ) and then calcium chloride,


you are basically doing the same thing now. with CALCIUM and aspirin.

But it does lower metabolism.


Vitamin D alone without calcium cant spent k2. Since only ionized calcium spends K2.


This is why people get screwed up with K2 , since they take this K2 in alkalosis. And then they can never restore the lost calcium.
 
Last edited:

Hevel

Member
Messages
20
I definitely noticed a correlation between gum sensitivity, hair loss and heart health, I remember when my chest felt really clogged up I also couldn't chew food properly and my shedding was at an all-time worst, using the uvb light on both sides of my jaw helped a little, my teeth are actually considerably stronger now even on a low calcium diet.

I do wonder if MK7 or Nattokinase will be just as bad as MK4.
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Calcium will never go up in blood in alkalosis. This is why you felt worse on k2. since k2 takes calcium out of the blood

K2 lowers already low ionized calcium in alkalosis, THUS causes anxiety.

this is why aspirin by increasing ionized calcium helps you.


but you need to fix alkalosis , and then your ionized calcium will be HUGE in blood


Or take calcium CHORIDE, which increases ionized calcium.


Dont forget in alkalosis they replace potassium or sodium and then calcium chloride,

what? I'm not in alkalosis - don't where you got that from.

I never have low calcium in blood, don't know what you are talking about here, sorry. The hypocalcemia is localized to areas of high MK4 retention, and what little MK4 will leak into the serum.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
5,415
what? I'm not in alkalosis - don't where you got that from.

I never have low calcium in blood, don't know what you are talking about here, sorry. The hypocalcemia is localized to areas of high MK4 retention, and what little MK4 will leak into the serum.


people here in this thread have alkalosis. with low phoshorus levels in blood. That is why i said , you also might have alkalosis

And if you are a slow oxidizer then you do have alkalosis.

Did you check your ionized calcium in blood? calcium levels can be even high . In alkalosis in blood, but IONIZED can be very low even with high total calcium. and ionized is what k2 regulates.

I am the same way, I hated k2 supps, they made me feel bad. Crazy anxiety and so on. Insane feeling.

Now I can take k2 with zero problems at all. but my body chemistry has changed,

Could not tolerate greens also. now I can take greens.
 
Last edited:

Area-1255

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
1,043
people here in this thread have alkalosis. with low phoshorus levels in blood. That is why i said , you also might have alkalosis

And if you are a slow oxidizer then you do have alkalosis.

Did you check your ionized calcium in blood?
High Phosphorus will cause Chest Pains too!
Phosphorus Is Associated with Coronary Artery Disease in Patients with Preserved Renal Function
Angina With “Normal” Coronary Arteries
A Changing Philosophy
Raffaele Bugiardini, MD; C. Noel Bairey Merz, MD
Article Information
JAMA. 2005;293(4):477-484. doi:10.1001/jama.293.4.477
Logo Cardiology Download Fulltext PDF

Treatment of Angina: Where Are We?
Release of Adenosine from Human Hearts during Angina Induced by Rapid Atrial Pacing
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
5,415
High Phosphorus will cause Chest Pains too!
Phosphorus Is Associated with Coronary Artery Disease in Patients with Preserved Renal Function
Angina With “Normal” Coronary Arteries
A Changing Philosophy
Raffaele Bugiardini, MD; C. Noel Bairey Merz, MD
Article Information
JAMA. 2005;293(4):477-484. doi:10.1001/jama.293.4.477
Logo Cardiology Download Fulltext PDF

Treatment of Angina: Where Are We?
Release of Adenosine from Human Hearts during Angina Induced by Rapid Atrial Pacing


This is kidney disease, where phosphorus causes loss of potassium from the cell. Thus heavy chest feeling

Same feeling as from calcium which people get here.
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
people here in this thread have alkalosis. with low phoshorus levels in blood. That is why i said , you also might have alkalosis

And if you are a slow oxidizer then you do have alkalosis.

Did you check your ionized calcium in blood? calcium levels can be even high . In alkalosis in blood, but IONIZED can be very low even with high total calcium. and ionized is what k2 regulates.

I am the same way, I hated k2 supps, they made me feel bad. Crazy anxiety and so on. Insane feeling.

Now I can take k2 with zero problems at all. but my body chemistry has changed,

Could not tolerate greens also. now I can take greens.

Ionized calcium is normal. phosphorous is normal - kidneys are working fine as they should be. That's because K2 is localized and concentrates in certain areas.

I'm fine with greens overall, I am just taking them out in case and to experiment. I was eating a ton before and did fine with them (helped fix digestion prior). And I was fine with K2 until I took very high amounts. I took 10 years worth of K2 in 30 days and then things got bad. Before that I had no health problems.

Low-dose ASA would never, ever, revert alkalosis - it's just not enough acid, not even close. But it is enough to cause maximal irreversible inhibition of coagulation proteins and vit K epoxide recycling, thinning the blood. That's about all it's enough for. Higher doses are needed for any other measurable effects.

Ionized calcium will not deplete Vitamin K, because vitamin K is almost perfectly recycled in serum. This is why we need such low amounts of it despite our body using it constantly - and why our body doesn't care much when absorbing it (also why ASA helps, because it stops this recycling). Vitamin D will deplete it because it synthesizes osteocalcin, which will carboxylate and deposit vitamin K into the bone, transforming it and removing it. Vitamin D will also deplete it by opposing matrix GLA protein, a vitamin K2 dependent protein. Matrix GLA protein causes decalcification of soft tissues, and Vitamin D will force the spending of K2. Matrix GLA will eject calcium from soft tissue, and vitamin D will put it back in. If you give high doses of both, it speeds up this cycle and maximizes expenditure of both D & K - I think this is the primary reason for why vit D helps so much. This is why K2 overdose people do good on Vitamin D - but they need it constantly, because it gets used up so fast. I think you could ask any of us who OD'd on K2 that if we don't get sun or don't take vit d for a few days or a few weeks, things start getting bad again.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Messages
5,415
Ionized calcium is normal. phosphorous is normal - kidneys are working fine as they should be. That's because K2 is localized and concentrates in certain areas.

I'm fine with greens overall, I am just taking them out in case and to experiment. I was eating a ton before and did fine with them (helped fix digestion prior). And I was fine with K2 until I took very high amounts. I took 10 years worth of K2 in 30 days and then things got bad. Before that I had no health problems.

Low-dose ASA would never, ever, revert alkalosis - it's just not enough acid, not even close. But it is enough to cause maximal irreversible inhibition of coagulation proteins and vit K epoxide recycling, thinning the blood. That's about all it's enough for. Higher doses are needed for any other measurable effects.

Ionized calcium will not deplete Vitamin K, because vitamin K is almost perfectly recycled in serum. This is why we need such low amounts of it despite our body using it constantly - and why our body doesn't care much when absorbing it. Vitamin D will deplete it because it synthesizes osteocalcin, which will carboxylate and deposit vitamin K into the bone, transforming it and removing it. Vitamin D will also deplete it by opposing matrix GLA protein, a vitamin K2 dependent protein. Matrix GLA protein causes decalcification of soft tissues, and Vitamin D will force the spending of K2. Matrix GLA will eject calcium from soft tissue, and vitamin D will put it back in. If you give high doses of both, it speeds up this cycle and maximizes expenditure of both D & K - I think this is the primary reason for why vit D helps so much. This is why K2 overdose people do good on Vitamin D - but they need it constantly, because it gets used up so fast. I think you could ask any of us who OD'd on K2 that if we don't get sun or don't take vit d for a few days or a few weeks, things start getting bad again.


I took zero D and I am fully recovered from excess K2. I took it for a while also., Phosphorus all I needed.

Phosphorus and potassium magnesium ask for calcium in the bone. . So this is what spends k2 the most. since k2 has to take calcium and bring in to the bone.

This is why D high level without calcium spends K2. Since it increases phosphorus. But the problem with that that I had was crazily increased lead absorption. lead was up 5 times, from being in the sun with zero calcium or taking d3 without calcium. So in my case it was not good.
 
Last edited:

supernature

Member
Messages
921
This is why D high level without calcium spends K2. Since it increases phosphorus. But the problem with that that I had was crazily increased lead absorption. lead was up 5 times, from being in the sun with zero calcium or taking d3 without calcium. So in my case it was not good.


...

So Vitamin K is a calcium chelator.

...






...
 
Last edited: