Copper deficiency vs toxicity

[merebalacy]

How is one meant to distinguish whether you are copper toxic or deficient? Copper on hair is in range, same with zinc, ceruloplasmin is borderline low.

 

[Yura]

@merebalacy If you are not taking high dose copper antagonists like zinc, molybdenum for long period of the time and you still experience copper deficiency that means most likely that you have issues with copper metabolism - the body has hard time making ceruloplasmin.
That can be due to many reasons..
But true copper deficiency meaning your liver and tissues in general are low in copper is basically impossible IF like I said you eat somewhat normal diet(even standart american diet) and you don't take copper antagonists in large doses..

So it is not about low intake. We need very little and in fact the more you have the more likely it will disturb adrenal function and your body will have harder time to use it properly. People have hard time understand this even doctors.. Just look at facebook groups about copper deficiency.
They all take copper and none of them get better actually most of them get worse and worse.. It's because they are not deficient. Their adrenals, liver has hard time make that copper work... Just look at promoters of copper. They all have grey hair. From low bioavailable copper and/or from oxidative stress from that copper...

It is tricky to deal with excess copper once the body lost control over it due to chronic stress and depletion of key cofactors like zinc, B vits, amino acids etc.. or due to exposure to hormones especially estrogen or toxic metals etc.. Taking more copper is not the answer that's for sure..

 

[merebalacy]

@merebalacy If you are not taking high dose copper antagonists like zinc, molybdenum for long period of the time and you still experience copper deficiency that means most likely that you have issues with copper metabolism - the body has hard time making ceruloplasmin.
That can be due to many reasons..
But true copper deficiency meaning your liver and tissues in general are low in copper is basically impossible IF like I said you eat somewhat normal diet(even standart american diet) and you don't take copper antagonists in large doses..

So it is not about low intake. We need very little and in fact the more you have the more likely it will disturb adrenal function and your body will have harder time to use it properly. People have hard time understand this even doctors.. Just look at facebook groups about copper deficiency.
They all take copper and none of them get better actually most of them get worse and worse.. It's because they are not deficient. Their adrenals, liver has hard time make that copper work... Just look at promoters of copper. They all have grey hair. From low bioavailable copper and/or from oxidative stress from that copper...

It is tricky to deal with excess copper once the body lost control over it due to chronic stress and depletion of key cofactors like zinc, B vits, amino acids etc.. or due to exposure to hormones especially estrogen or toxic metals etc.. Taking more copper is not the answer that's for sure..

I sometimes take molybdenum NAC, and zinc. It’s not a regular thing and they’re at moderate doses. that’s why I was worried tbh, I do get all my RDA for copper and zinc so I should be okay.

Yea, the ceruloplasmin stuff I have to read into a lot more, do you have any resources or is this site the best place I’ve got?

 

[Yura]

@merebalacy be careful with Morley Robbins and his "root cause protocol".. His idea is to rise ceruloplasmin, but in most people it does exact opposite.
I don't think you need to worry about this stuff. Just eat balanced diet and live life that will keep your chemistry balanced.
Because I am now convinced after 10+years of testing and doing stupid stuff that if you live in chronic stress, fear, worry. Simply if your body thinks you are in survival situation all the time you will not balance, detox properly no matter what you do.. Vise versa if your body feels good and "safe" you can have pretty bad diet and everything, but the body will be able to balance pretty easily.. You see it all the time. People who don't worry about anything, eat garbage and are doing great. People who have everything perfect and worry about having everything perfect nothing works as it should..
I am trying to change that mindset, but it is hard.. As they say "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" so true(at least for humans hehe)

 

[RebelWithACause]

According to Helen in most cases slow oxidizers always toxic in copper. Unless they had low copper absorption which can also happen in specific cases of slow oxidation. If you are a slow oxidizer then you are most likely copper toxic and you need stuff that speeds you up so your body starts using it. But in case of that you are also probably toxic in other stuff because your metabolism doesn't need most nutrients that support metabolism (because it's low)

 

[Yura]

@RebelWithACause What is really confusing to me in nutritional balancing using hair testing is that when you are slow oxidizer and you are in stage of stress where your adrenals can keep up. You will have normal or even higher Na/K ratio. Ideal is 2.5 and in that case they don't give you copper. Makes sense right. You are slow oxidizer you don't give more copper. YOu give everything else like some magnesium, B vitamins, vit C, zinc, chromium, selenium etc.. To basically support adrenals so it can handle stress and detoxing excess of copper and other heavy metals etc..
But in later stages of adrenal burnout you will see on a hair test lower Na/K ratio than is ideal and in that case they will give you copper to rise that sodium.
That doesn't make any sense to me because you can be in that burnout stage due to bad copper toxicity. So if you force sodium increase by stressing the system even more with copper to rise sodium levels how that can work long term? Poisoning the body even more to just have better hair test results..
In that case what makes more sense to me is what Helen said. Forcing stress and therefore increasing sodium, but by exercise not by taking the thing that is the problem in a first place..
Would love to hear answer to what I just said from Paul Eck. Wilson I know he liked more manganese to rise sodium. They give shit loads of manganese when they push zinc in. Like for me they recomended something like 80mg zinc and 25mg manganese.. But copper as well on second test where my sodium dropped. They recomended 2.2mg copper...

To me it makes to no sense.. Helen approach makes sense. Supporting adrenals with everything else so it is able to rise sodium naturally by adrenaline from exercise so the body can increase ceruloplasmin and use that copper..
Nutritional balancing people recommend doing nothing. They say relax as much as possible and the body will start dumping copper. But I think it will never happen. The funny part is that they recommend shit loads of sauna and coffee enemas as well and they are stressful detox methods..
Sauna is relaxing only at the start when your body gets warm. That is crazy powerful relaxant. BUT once you start overheat and your heartbeat goes up and you start sweating that is clear sign of increase in stress hormone production..
Same thing loading the system with caffeine. It has nothing to do with relaxing. It is stress to the body it pushes the liver work hard..
So they recommend relaxing, meditation etc.. but the core of detox are stress methods..

They say sweating from sauna is better than from exercise because you are more relaxed and you detox more toxins, but there was plenty of papers showing that when you move your body = you move not just blood, but also lymph fluid around the body you detox much more toxins than sitting on your ass in a sauna..

Anyways since I stopped riding bike and more relaxing my health is going downhill faster than when I was stressing my body like crazy with manual labor job, exercise etc..
Only during that time I made a mistake that I completely forgot about nutritional balancing and I was not supporting the system with everything it needs..

Basically what I think what we should do in burnout due to copper(and other toxin overload) is doing basically bodybuidling diet similar to diet from Helen in electrolyte protocol. Rice, veggies, lean meats, some fruits. Supps to support adrenals like I said. and for detox ideally exercise to stimulate flow of all fluids, and intestine for pooping as well and copper intake I would say the more you exercise/detox the more copper you can handle and vise versa if you do nothing and sit on your ass(which is bad idea because your metabolism just goes lower and lower I experienced it again and again and I will never ever do that again) your copper intake should be maybe what is in white rice and veggies.. At the same time you need to lower B vitamins, vit C, zinc everything as well.. Otherwise you are just redistributing toxins and killing yourself..

What really sucks is that it took me 10 years to really realize this. I am simply that dumb dude who has to be punched 10 times in the face instead of once to realize that it really is not good idea to gt punched in the face hehe..

Winter is hard. You are cold, metabolism crashes, you can't be outside exercising and sweating in the heat. I am barely surviving this winter.. I know for fucking sure that if I am in this health state the next winter and I am in Czech Rep. I am done..
So this year till winter I have some serious work to do if I want any chance to live. At least somewhat average life...

I copy it to my vlog as well just for myself.

 

[RebelWithACause]

@RebelWithACause What is really confusing to me in nutritional balancing using hair testing is that when you are slow oxidizer and you are in stage of stress where your adrenals can keep up. You will have normal or even higher Na/K ratio. Ideal is 2.5 and in that case they don't give you copper. Makes sense right. You are slow oxidizer you don't give more copper. YOu give everything else like some magnesium, B vitamins, vit C, zinc, chromium, selenium etc.. To basically support adrenals so it can handle stress and detoxing excess of copper and other heavy metals etc..
But in later stages of adrenal burnout you will see on a hair test lower Na/K ratio than is ideal and in that case they will give you copper to rise that sodium.
That doesn't make any sense to me because you can be in that burnout stage due to bad copper toxicity. So if you force sodium increase by stressing the system even more with copper to rise sodium levels how that can work long term? Poisoning the body even more to just have better hair test results..
In that case what makes more sense to me is what Helen said. Forcing stress and therefore increasing sodium, but by exercise not by taking the thing that is the problem in a first place..
Would love to hear answer to what I just said from Paul Eck. Wilson I know he liked more manganese to rise sodium. They give shit loads of manganese when they push zinc in. Like for me they recomended something like 80mg zinc and 25mg manganese.. But copper as well on second test where my sodium dropped. They recomended 2.2mg copper...

To me it makes to no sense.. Helen approach makes sense. Supporting adrenals with everything else so it is able to rise sodium naturally by adrenaline from exercise so the body can increase ceruloplasmin and use that copper..
Nutritional balancing people recommend doing nothing. They say relax as much as possible and the body will start dumping copper. But I think it will never happen. The funny part is that they recommend shit loads of sauna and coffee enemas as well and they are stressful detox methods..
Sauna is relaxing only at the start when your body gets warm. That is crazy powerful relaxant. BUT once you start overheat and your heartbeat goes up and you start sweating that is clear sign of increase in stress hormone production..
Same thing loading the system with caffeine. It has nothing to do with relaxing. It is stress to the body it pushes the liver work hard..
So they recommend relaxing, meditation etc.. but the core of detox are stress methods..

They say sweating from sauna is better than from exercise because you are more relaxed and you detox more toxins, but there was plenty of papers showing that when you move your body = you move not just blood, but also lymph fluid around the body you detox much more toxins than sitting on your ass in a sauna..

Anyways since I stopped riding bike and more relaxing my health is going downhill faster than when I was stressing my body like crazy with manual labor job, exercise etc..
Only during that time I made a mistake that I completely forgot about nutritional balancing and I was not supporting the system with everything it needs..

Basically what I think what we should do in burnout due to copper(and other toxin overload) is doing basically bodybuidling diet similar to diet from Helen in electrolyte protocol. Rice, veggies, lean meats, some fruits. Supps to support adrenals like I said. and for detox ideally exercise to stimulate flow of all fluids, and intestine for pooping as well and copper intake I would say the more you exercise/detox the more copper you can handle and vise versa if you do nothing and sit on your ass(which is bad idea because your metabolism just goes lower and lower I experienced it again and again and I will never ever do that again) your copper intake should be maybe what is in white rice and veggies.. At the same time you need to lower B vitamins, vit C, zinc everything as well.. Otherwise you are just redistributing toxins and killing yourself..

What really sucks is that it took me 10 years to really realize this. I am simply that dumb dude who has to be punched 10 times in the face instead of once to realize that it really is not good idea to gt punched in the face hehe..

Winter is hard. You are cold, metabolism crashes, you can't be outside exercising and sweating in the heat. I am barely surviving this winter.. I know for fucking sure that if I am in this health state the next winter and I am in Czech Rep. I am done..
So this year till winter I have some serious work to do if I want any chance to live. At least somewhat average life...

I copy it to my vlog as well just for myself.

You had a lot of insight already when this forum started I think you just need to really go hard at it and also see where your bottlenecks are and support it. I think you could easily improve to an OK level at the very least within a year. You know what to do probably.

A small amount of copper will make you feel better if you have low availability but you probably need good estrogen and ceruloplasmin for it. Which you don't have I think so probably best to keep it as low as possible in the beginning.

I know a bodybuilder who used steroids a long time and he stopped all steroids started running like crazy and he improved a lot after crashing from steroids. I wouldn't say 100% great but he feels good. I think exercise can be a tool for sure. I do 2 days a week exercise never made me worse always improved me. Same for a lot of people like PFS and PAS it is a helpful tool. Not end all be all. As long as you are smart about it and don't do some crazy shit when you barely have energy to begin with.

 

[Yura]

@RebelWithACause Well there is also that issue with stress/trauma from family/place I live my whole life. I didn't saw it so clearly that it is the most important factor in my case. Why I got only worse and worse. How truly damaging and unhealthy my living environment was for me. So nothing worked. Because you need that proper physical stress from manual labor/exercise whatever, but after that you need to calm down and be relaxed. So you can recover for another day of physical stress.. I never had that recovery phase. Always on the edge stressed out of my mind. So that is my number one priority for sure. To move out of this shit hole no matter what. Doesn't matter that I am half dead and I am not sure if I can work full time to support myself. I simply have to do it and find out. Better end up homeless than be stuck in same situation and be dead by next winter for sure..
LIke I am in pool where the water is boiling and outside of that pool are hyenas running around. So I can stay in the pool and boil myself or I can jump out and try to survive somehow hehe..

 

[ruprmurdoch]

@RebelWithACause What is really confusing to me in nutritional balancing using hair testing is that when you are slow oxidizer and you are in stage of stress where your adrenals can keep up. You will have normal or even higher Na/K ratio. Ideal is 2.5 and in that case they don't give you copper. Makes sense right. You are slow oxidizer you don't give more copper. YOu give everything else like some magnesium, B vitamins, vit C, zinc, chromium, selenium etc.. To basically support adrenals so it can handle stress and detoxing excess of copper and other heavy metals etc..
But in later stages of adrenal burnout you will see on a hair test lower Na/K ratio than is ideal and in that case they will give you copper to rise that sodium.
That doesn't make any sense to me because you can be in that burnout stage due to bad copper toxicity. So if you force sodium increase by stressing the system even more with copper to rise sodium levels how that can work long term? Poisoning the body even more to just have better hair test results..
In that case what makes more sense to me is what Helen said. Forcing stress and therefore increasing sodium, but by exercise not by taking the thing that is the problem in a first place..
Would love to hear answer to what I just said from Paul Eck. Wilson I know he liked more manganese to rise sodium. They give shit loads of manganese when they push zinc in. Like for me they recomended something like 80mg zinc and 25mg manganese.. But copper as well on second test where my sodium dropped. They recomended 2.2mg copper...

To me it makes to no sense.. Helen approach makes sense. Supporting adrenals with everything else so it is able to rise sodium naturally by adrenaline from exercise so the body can increase ceruloplasmin and use that copper..
Nutritional balancing people recommend doing nothing. They say relax as much as possible and the body will start dumping copper. But I think it will never happen. The funny part is that they recommend shit loads of sauna and coffee enemas as well and they are stressful detox methods..
Sauna is relaxing only at the start when your body gets warm. That is crazy powerful relaxant. BUT once you start overheat and your heartbeat goes up and you start sweating that is clear sign of increase in stress hormone production..
Same thing loading the system with caffeine. It has nothing to do with relaxing. It is stress to the body it pushes the liver work hard..
So they recommend relaxing, meditation etc.. but the core of detox are stress methods..

They say sweating from sauna is better than from exercise because you are more relaxed and you detox more toxins, but there was plenty of papers showing that when you move your body = you move not just blood, but also lymph fluid around the body you detox much more toxins than sitting on your ass in a sauna..

Anyways since I stopped riding bike and more relaxing my health is going downhill faster than when I was stressing my body like crazy with manual labor job, exercise etc..
Only during that time I made a mistake that I completely forgot about nutritional balancing and I was not supporting the system with everything it needs..

Basically what I think what we should do in burnout due to copper(and other toxin overload) is doing basically bodybuidling diet similar to diet from Helen in electrolyte protocol. Rice, veggies, lean meats, some fruits. Supps to support adrenals like I said. and for detox ideally exercise to stimulate flow of all fluids, and intestine for pooping as well and copper intake I would say the more you exercise/detox the more copper you can handle and vise versa if you do nothing and sit on your ass(which is bad idea because your metabolism just goes lower and lower I experienced it again and again and I will never ever do that again) your copper intake should be maybe what is in white rice and veggies.. At the same time you need to lower B vitamins, vit C, zinc everything as well.. Otherwise you are just redistributing toxins and killing yourself..

What really sucks is that it took me 10 years to really realize this. I am simply that dumb dude who has to be punched 10 times in the face instead of once to realize that it really is not good idea to gt punched in the face hehe..

Winter is hard. You are cold, metabolism crashes, you can't be outside exercising and sweating in the heat. I am barely surviving this winter.. I know for fucking sure that if I am in this health state the next winter and I am in Czech Rep. I am done..
So this year till winter I have some serious work to do if I want any chance to live. At least somewhat average life...

I copy it to my vlog as well just for myself.

winter is great this year to fix slow oxid. why ?:
1.In Czechia You have pretty good mountain infrastructure, there is plenty of snow, and everywhere is close
2. the more You go up, the higher altitude, the more you stress your body to breath. by just going to mountains you excersisse ! mountains air is diluted, you must stess your body to even breath. it is not strange that people go to mountains to prepare for sport events. remember helen wrote on old non existing raypeatforum that mountains are really pro hair.
3.You can go to mountains and do classical skiiing, this sport even in lowlands is super oxygenic. I just wonder how super oxygenating would be for healt go to mountains and do classical skiing. just check olympic games now and look at classical skiers - they have super hairs ! mountains on its own dump fe and cu. with classical skiing this effect would be strenghten x2
4. There is belief that mountain people are going crazy when they go to lowlands. it is not strange. beacuse they have better oxygenation, they can do more.
5.Yura you have GREAT conditions now to dump cu and fe, I bet that people after this winter generally will dump a lot of fe and en masse. go for three weeks to mountains, do classical skiing, then go to some lowland country like Belgium for trip and You will drink twice more beer than anyone

 

[Yura]

@ruprmurdoch I live in Olomouc. It is place flat as pancake. I don't have resources or health to walk around in the mountains lol. Obviously you don't understand how bad my health is especially now during the winter. I can't even work full time to support myself and you are suggesting that I should hike in the mountains. Fucking hilarious. I can barely walk 2 km to supermarket.

 

[ruprmurdoch]

I remember You speak with helen few years ago, and you are still in the same place. You were stubborn back then and You are still, it gives impression like You know everything better. It seems like Your head is closed for ideas. I read Your posts and it is mix of whining and being petty. Your posts are empty yet emotionall.

,,. I can barely walk 2 km to supermarket." - why ?
,,Obviously you don't understand how bad my health is especially now during the winter"- what are the symptoms ?
You want help or dont need it ? As far as I see from many years the worst thing is tahat you are resistant to advices.

,,I live in Olomouc. It is place flat as pancake."- how far is to nearest mountains or some place where you can skiing ?

 

[RebelWithACause]

TEI/ARL is really good if you are very bad, I think most people would do best just getting those tests like Helen said back then. Because even I see now a lot of things that TEI did for me back then which were correct all along and it took me years to see this was the case. It's especially good when you are a bad case because they will at least build you up to stability. I think it's very hard if you are really effed up. Most people I see are not that bad so they have more freedom to experiment and f around with supplements and then they advice someone who is way worse which is wrong most likely. That's why TEI/ARL is good it's very specific. As long as you don't use bad hair samples and use hormones, supplements etc. before testing.

That being said I think you Yura are right about a lot but your health is too bad right now you need a strict protocol and TEI/ARL is good for that in my opinion because they also say the diet, specific supps, etc. Only negative is that it costs a lot relatively speaking and it is slower than taking huge dosages. But huge dosages can cause a lot of problems and those huge dosages can be bad in a bad health state.

Also I think you can't just look at a hair test and then do your own thing like taking less, more or other stuff with it. The specific recommended supps in the dosages are what make it work so well. When I did it very strict I made big strides from insanely bad health to somewhat normalcy. Still huge issues but it's like the system calmed down, more balanced. You can live like that easily. I just got impatient and started doing my own stuff. But because of the basis that TEI put there (stability) I could afford more experimentation. I did TEI strict for 1,5 years.

If you are suffering badly daily from bad health symptoms your health is not good enough to do your own experiments. I do experiments and because of those experiments I feel bad sometimes. This is different. If you suffer without supplements and experiments your basis is not stable enough to do crazy stuff. Just my opinion. That's when something like ARL or TEI comes in. You can do that for a year and make massive strides towards a more stable foundation. Then you can decide OK I will experiment.

 

[Yura]

@RebelWithACause When I listened Wilson talking how he couldn't start detoxing/fixing his imbalances until he moved out of stressful area where he lived. I realized that is my case as well. I did great at some point, but unfortunately I fucked up. I sabotaged myself when I started with sports betting etc. and because I was living in crazy adrenaline state all the time. That crazy catabolism period crippled me. Now I understand why I did all those stupid things. I was doing everything to escape my reality instead of facing it and fixing it.. Now I understand much better why I am the way I am.. The thing is now that I need to be independent so I can truly start fixing my health, but you need to be functioning human to be independent.. Or you need money. If I had money to rent apartment in different city and have money on food and program that is the only scenario now the program would work for me.. If my baseline would be no stress and my body could focus all energy on healing that would be completely different story.. That is the only thing I need to achieve if I want at least some chance to get better. Anything else is just waste of time or money on supplements etc.. I just hope for easy enough job that I can do now so I can save up some money while not doing again something really stupid that sends me to even deeper hole where I am now..

 

[RebelWithACause]

I feel you dude it's hard. I held on to my low stress job for dear life. I could of easily been fired because I could barely function I was so sick. But I was good at hiding it to an extent although I think they noticed my low energy levels - they did not notice my severe depression, anxiety, etc. So I just acted like I was working but reality was my output went from 100% to 10%. I think you are currently in a very bad state and it's hard to give any meaningful advice except you have to build yourself up slowly with small steps. Then once you get to a strong enough point this is where you can make big steps. You can do this with ARL/TEI advice or read a lot of Helen and try stuff slowly for yourself. But this last part is harder. TEI/ARL is good for this but if you can't pay for it then you will have to do it yourself which is harder but not impossible of course.