Copper deficiency vs toxicity

[merebalacy]

How is one meant to distinguish whether you are copper toxic or deficient? Copper on hair is in range, same with zinc, ceruloplasmin is borderline low.

 

[Yura]

@merebalacy If you are not taking high dose copper antagonists like zinc, molybdenum for long period of the time and you still experience copper deficiency that means most likely that you have issues with copper metabolism - the body has hard time making ceruloplasmin.
That can be due to many reasons..
But true copper deficiency meaning your liver and tissues in general are low in copper is basically impossible IF like I said you eat somewhat normal diet(even standart american diet) and you don't take copper antagonists in large doses..

So it is not about low intake. We need very little and in fact the more you have the more likely it will disturb adrenal function and your body will have harder time to use it properly. People have hard time understand this even doctors.. Just look at facebook groups about copper deficiency.
They all take copper and none of them get better actually most of them get worse and worse.. It's because they are not deficient. Their adrenals, liver has hard time make that copper work... Just look at promoters of copper. They all have grey hair. From low bioavailable copper and/or from oxidative stress from that copper...

It is tricky to deal with excess copper once the body lost control over it due to chronic stress and depletion of key cofactors like zinc, B vits, amino acids etc.. or due to exposure to hormones especially estrogen or toxic metals etc.. Taking more copper is not the answer that's for sure..

 

[merebalacy]

@merebalacy If you are not taking high dose copper antagonists like zinc, molybdenum for long period of the time and you still experience copper deficiency that means most likely that you have issues with copper metabolism - the body has hard time making ceruloplasmin.
That can be due to many reasons..
But true copper deficiency meaning your liver and tissues in general are low in copper is basically impossible IF like I said you eat somewhat normal diet(even standart american diet) and you don't take copper antagonists in large doses..

So it is not about low intake. We need very little and in fact the more you have the more likely it will disturb adrenal function and your body will have harder time to use it properly. People have hard time understand this even doctors.. Just look at facebook groups about copper deficiency.
They all take copper and none of them get better actually most of them get worse and worse.. It's because they are not deficient. Their adrenals, liver has hard time make that copper work... Just look at promoters of copper. They all have grey hair. From low bioavailable copper and/or from oxidative stress from that copper...

It is tricky to deal with excess copper once the body lost control over it due to chronic stress and depletion of key cofactors like zinc, B vits, amino acids etc.. or due to exposure to hormones especially estrogen or toxic metals etc.. Taking more copper is not the answer that's for sure..

I sometimes take molybdenum NAC, and zinc. It’s not a regular thing and they’re at moderate doses. that’s why I was worried tbh, I do get all my RDA for copper and zinc so I should be okay.

Yea, the ceruloplasmin stuff I have to read into a lot more, do you have any resources or is this site the best place I’ve got?

 

[Yura]

@merebalacy be careful with Morley Robbins and his "root cause protocol".. His idea is to rise ceruloplasmin, but in most people it does exact opposite.
I don't think you need to worry about this stuff. Just eat balanced diet and live life that will keep your chemistry balanced.
Because I am now convinced after 10+years of testing and doing stupid stuff that if you live in chronic stress, fear, worry. Simply if your body thinks you are in survival situation all the time you will not balance, detox properly no matter what you do.. Vise versa if your body feels good and "safe" you can have pretty bad diet and everything, but the body will be able to balance pretty easily.. You see it all the time. People who don't worry about anything, eat garbage and are doing great. People who have everything perfect and worry about having everything perfect nothing works as it should..
I am trying to change that mindset, but it is hard.. As they say "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" so true(at least for humans hehe)

 

[RebelWithACause]

According to Helen in most cases slow oxidizers always toxic in copper. Unless they had low copper absorption which can also happen in specific cases of slow oxidation. If you are a slow oxidizer then you are most likely copper toxic and you need stuff that speeds you up so your body starts using it. But in case of that you are also probably toxic in other stuff because your metabolism doesn't need most nutrients that support metabolism (because it's low)

 

[Yura]

@RebelWithACause What is really confusing to me in nutritional balancing using hair testing is that when you are slow oxidizer and you are in stage of stress where your adrenals can keep up. You will have normal or even higher Na/K ratio. Ideal is 2.5 and in that case they don't give you copper. Makes sense right. You are slow oxidizer you don't give more copper. YOu give everything else like some magnesium, B vitamins, vit C, zinc, chromium, selenium etc.. To basically support adrenals so it can handle stress and detoxing excess of copper and other heavy metals etc..
But in later stages of adrenal burnout you will see on a hair test lower Na/K ratio than is ideal and in that case they will give you copper to rise that sodium.
That doesn't make any sense to me because you can be in that burnout stage due to bad copper toxicity. So if you force sodium increase by stressing the system even more with copper to rise sodium levels how that can work long term? Poisoning the body even more to just have better hair test results..
In that case what makes more sense to me is what Helen said. Forcing stress and therefore increasing sodium, but by exercise not by taking the thing that is the problem in a first place..
Would love to hear answer to what I just said from Paul Eck. Wilson I know he liked more manganese to rise sodium. They give shit loads of manganese when they push zinc in. Like for me they recomended something like 80mg zinc and 25mg manganese.. But copper as well on second test where my sodium dropped. They recomended 2.2mg copper...

To me it makes to no sense.. Helen approach makes sense. Supporting adrenals with everything else so it is able to rise sodium naturally by adrenaline from exercise so the body can increase ceruloplasmin and use that copper..
Nutritional balancing people recommend doing nothing. They say relax as much as possible and the body will start dumping copper. But I think it will never happen. The funny part is that they recommend shit loads of sauna and coffee enemas as well and they are stressful detox methods..
Sauna is relaxing only at the start when your body gets warm. That is crazy powerful relaxant. BUT once you start overheat and your heartbeat goes up and you start sweating that is clear sign of increase in stress hormone production..
Same thing loading the system with caffeine. It has nothing to do with relaxing. It is stress to the body it pushes the liver work hard..
So they recommend relaxing, meditation etc.. but the core of detox are stress methods..

They say sweating from sauna is better than from exercise because you are more relaxed and you detox more toxins, but there was plenty of papers showing that when you move your body = you move not just blood, but also lymph fluid around the body you detox much more toxins than sitting on your ass in a sauna..

Anyways since I stopped riding bike and more relaxing my health is going downhill faster than when I was stressing my body like crazy with manual labor job, exercise etc..
Only during that time I made a mistake that I completely forgot about nutritional balancing and I was not supporting the system with everything it needs..

Basically what I think what we should do in burnout due to copper(and other toxin overload) is doing basically bodybuidling diet similar to diet from Helen in electrolyte protocol. Rice, veggies, lean meats, some fruits. Supps to support adrenals like I said. and for detox ideally exercise to stimulate flow of all fluids, and intestine for pooping as well and copper intake I would say the more you exercise/detox the more copper you can handle and vise versa if you do nothing and sit on your ass(which is bad idea because your metabolism just goes lower and lower I experienced it again and again and I will never ever do that again) your copper intake should be maybe what is in white rice and veggies.. At the same time you need to lower B vitamins, vit C, zinc everything as well.. Otherwise you are just redistributing toxins and killing yourself..

What really sucks is that it took me 10 years to really realize this. I am simply that dumb dude who has to be punched 10 times in the face instead of once to realize that it really is not good idea to gt punched in the face hehe..

Winter is hard. You are cold, metabolism crashes, you can't be outside exercising and sweating in the heat. I am barely surviving this winter.. I know for fucking sure that if I am in this health state the next winter and I am in Czech Rep. I am done..
So this year till winter I have some serious work to do if I want any chance to live. At least somewhat average life...

I copy it to my vlog as well just for myself.

 

[RebelWithACause]

@RebelWithACause What is really confusing to me in nutritional balancing using hair testing is that when you are slow oxidizer and you are in stage of stress where your adrenals can keep up. You will have normal or even higher Na/K ratio. Ideal is 2.5 and in that case they don't give you copper. Makes sense right. You are slow oxidizer you don't give more copper. YOu give everything else like some magnesium, B vitamins, vit C, zinc, chromium, selenium etc.. To basically support adrenals so it can handle stress and detoxing excess of copper and other heavy metals etc..
But in later stages of adrenal burnout you will see on a hair test lower Na/K ratio than is ideal and in that case they will give you copper to rise that sodium.
That doesn't make any sense to me because you can be in that burnout stage due to bad copper toxicity. So if you force sodium increase by stressing the system even more with copper to rise sodium levels how that can work long term? Poisoning the body even more to just have better hair test results..
In that case what makes more sense to me is what Helen said. Forcing stress and therefore increasing sodium, but by exercise not by taking the thing that is the problem in a first place..
Would love to hear answer to what I just said from Paul Eck. Wilson I know he liked more manganese to rise sodium. They give shit loads of manganese when they push zinc in. Like for me they recomended something like 80mg zinc and 25mg manganese.. But copper as well on second test where my sodium dropped. They recomended 2.2mg copper...

To me it makes to no sense.. Helen approach makes sense. Supporting adrenals with everything else so it is able to rise sodium naturally by adrenaline from exercise so the body can increase ceruloplasmin and use that copper..
Nutritional balancing people recommend doing nothing. They say relax as much as possible and the body will start dumping copper. But I think it will never happen. The funny part is that they recommend shit loads of sauna and coffee enemas as well and they are stressful detox methods..
Sauna is relaxing only at the start when your body gets warm. That is crazy powerful relaxant. BUT once you start overheat and your heartbeat goes up and you start sweating that is clear sign of increase in stress hormone production..
Same thing loading the system with caffeine. It has nothing to do with relaxing. It is stress to the body it pushes the liver work hard..
So they recommend relaxing, meditation etc.. but the core of detox are stress methods..

They say sweating from sauna is better than from exercise because you are more relaxed and you detox more toxins, but there was plenty of papers showing that when you move your body = you move not just blood, but also lymph fluid around the body you detox much more toxins than sitting on your ass in a sauna..

Anyways since I stopped riding bike and more relaxing my health is going downhill faster than when I was stressing my body like crazy with manual labor job, exercise etc..
Only during that time I made a mistake that I completely forgot about nutritional balancing and I was not supporting the system with everything it needs..

Basically what I think what we should do in burnout due to copper(and other toxin overload) is doing basically bodybuidling diet similar to diet from Helen in electrolyte protocol. Rice, veggies, lean meats, some fruits. Supps to support adrenals like I said. and for detox ideally exercise to stimulate flow of all fluids, and intestine for pooping as well and copper intake I would say the more you exercise/detox the more copper you can handle and vise versa if you do nothing and sit on your ass(which is bad idea because your metabolism just goes lower and lower I experienced it again and again and I will never ever do that again) your copper intake should be maybe what is in white rice and veggies.. At the same time you need to lower B vitamins, vit C, zinc everything as well.. Otherwise you are just redistributing toxins and killing yourself..

What really sucks is that it took me 10 years to really realize this. I am simply that dumb dude who has to be punched 10 times in the face instead of once to realize that it really is not good idea to gt punched in the face hehe..

Winter is hard. You are cold, metabolism crashes, you can't be outside exercising and sweating in the heat. I am barely surviving this winter.. I know for fucking sure that if I am in this health state the next winter and I am in Czech Rep. I am done..
So this year till winter I have some serious work to do if I want any chance to live. At least somewhat average life...

I copy it to my vlog as well just for myself.

You had a lot of insight already when this forum started I think you just need to really go hard at it and also see where your bottlenecks are and support it. I think you could easily improve to an OK level at the very least within a year. You know what to do probably.

A small amount of copper will make you feel better if you have low availability but you probably need good estrogen and ceruloplasmin for it. Which you don't have I think so probably best to keep it as low as possible in the beginning.

I know a bodybuilder who used steroids a long time and he stopped all steroids started running like crazy and he improved a lot after crashing from steroids. I wouldn't say 100% great but he feels good. I think exercise can be a tool for sure. I do 2 days a week exercise never made me worse always improved me. Same for a lot of people like PFS and PAS it is a helpful tool. Not end all be all. As long as you are smart about it and don't do some crazy shit when you barely have energy to begin with.

 

[Yura]

@RebelWithACause Well there is also that issue with stress/trauma from family/place I live my whole life. I didn't saw it so clearly that it is the most important factor in my case. Why I got only worse and worse. How truly damaging and unhealthy my living environment was for me. So nothing worked. Because you need that proper physical stress from manual labor/exercise whatever, but after that you need to calm down and be relaxed. So you can recover for another day of physical stress.. I never had that recovery phase. Always on the edge stressed out of my mind. So that is my number one priority for sure. To move out of this shit hole no matter what. Doesn't matter that I am half dead and I am not sure if I can work full time to support myself. I simply have to do it and find out. Better end up homeless than be stuck in same situation and be dead by next winter for sure..
LIke I am in pool where the water is boiling and outside of that pool are hyenas running around. So I can stay in the pool and boil myself or I can jump out and try to survive somehow hehe..