ESTRONE VS ESTRADIOL RATIO as the cause of PFS and hairloss.

[Helen]

Estrone is a weaker estrogen and I assume since finasteride lowers NADPH, then it is estrone that accumulates and conversions of estrone to estradiol is blocked.

Since Estradiol is the main estrogen and that is what actually does all the estrogenic effects, and protection, lack of estradiol action is what people experience just like all the bad negative effects of aromatase inhibitors.

Zero libido , bone health goes to zero. Same as menopausal women experience , since they only run on estrone.

This might be why AR does not work, since there is no estrogen action in the body. Since estrone is blocking estradiol. And this is why estradiol taken with DHT works.


I would assume estrone is the pro hair hormone, estradiol is not pro hair. So in hairloss there might be too big conversion of estrone into estradiol.


As we know finasteride causes 30% increase in andostenedione, which converts into estrone. SO I would assume estrone levels would be high and it might be what suppresses LH.


I guess transgengers take estradiol and this increases estrone levels. Thus they regrow hair.

We do have 2 cases in PFS with high and low testosterone and DHT. I think this happens since glutathione is needed to be recycled with FAD and NADPH. so if there is no NADPH< then even low NADPH production wont be spent, and this NADPH will be broken down by NADPH oxidase and this will create oxidative stress.

So people with higher levels of testostrone and DHT will need higher B2 ratio relative to B1 in their multi.

 

[Niles]

Very interesting theory. I may get estrone levels tested with my next round of bloods. So the solution to this would be to increase NADPH?

 

[Jaxx]

Very interesting to connect PFS to estradiol, there are some articles connecting it to PSSD as well

I know this topic technically belongs in the studies sub-forum but I thought I'd post it here for more visibility. In late 2014 a study was published showing a complete relief of PSSD symptoms in rats treated with an antidepressant at birth. To date, this is the only journal reference I can find of this kind.

Hormone replacement with 17β-estradiol plus dihydrotestosterone restores male sexual behavior in rats treated neonatally with clomipramine
Hormone replacement with 17β-estradiol plus dihydrotestosterone restores male sexual behavior in rats treated neonatally with clomipramine. - PubMed - NCBI

In the study, rats were given clomipramine neonatally, which induced severe PSSD-like symptoms that persisted through adulthood (almost zero interest in sex being one of them). Through blood tests it was found that the adult rats had normal levels of testosterone and estradiol. When treated with a course of estradiol+DHT, the symptoms were completely reversed.

Why might this have worked? Well, one theory is that PSSD is caused by persistent 5HT1A receptor desensitization. SERT is probably involved in this, along with sex steroids upstream of that. The following article shows a link between estradiol and SERT density.

Estradiol-17 beta increases serotonin transporter (SERT) mRNA levels and the density of SERT-binding sites in female rat brain
Estradiol-17 beta increases serotonin transporter (SERT) mRNA levels and the density of SERT-binding sites in female rat brain. - PubMed - NCBI

[mention]gbolduev[/mention] has already mentioned how this fits under his progesterone theory. I was curious if anyone else has thoughts on this topic, as it might influence how we go about our trials moving forward. Unfortunately I am unable to find the full journal article at this time, which would likely include dosing information for the estradiol+DHT.

 

[HerrFisch]

So block Beta HSD -> No Estradiol > PFS
Use Estradiol > All aromatase goes into Estrone
Use DHT -> More Estradiol

So you need to convert DHT into its metabolites fast so less goes into Estradiol, or you need to have little beta HSD and low testosterone + high aromatase?

 

[Helen]

So block Beta HSD -> No Estradiol > PFS
Use Estradiol > All aromatase goes into Estrone
Use DHT -> More Estradiol

So you need to convert DHT into its metabolites fast so less goes into Estradiol, or you need to have little beta HSD and low testosterone + high aromatase?

we are talking PFS. You need to increase NADPH which 17 beta hsd works on. and problem is solved)) Estrone will go into estradiol

 

[HerrFisch]

yeah, wasnt talking about my problems ^^ wanted to understand PFS and hairloss connection..

 

[BeLikeWater]

Can we take NADPH as supplement are eveything will go ok^?

 

[D4n]

I’ve seen studies where minoxidil increases 17 beta hsd. Interesting

 

[Goose12]

Wont Tei/ arl will eventually raise NADPH? So far I think this is the best course of action we have.

 

[TubZy]

If NADPH is offered as a supplement (maybe Alibaba) that would probably conclude if NADPH is the root cause of fixing it. Someone is bound to get their hands on it

 

[Helen]

I think may be Fin causes severe B1 deficiency just like alcoholism. thus no NADPH. May be huge b1 loading will upregulate NADPH.

Thus I rec'd to Orion to try it out, and he seems to like it for PAS.

As we see many people have 4 highs 3 highs, those are impaired fat and sugar metabolisms. And the body has to raise cortisol and work on it even with low potassium/

This is what PFS is. working on cortisol in low metabolism which is cancer body chemistry.

NADPH is made in pentose pathway, from NAD and B1 recycles it.

I took huge doses of B1 with histidine and copper and potassium. Along with other bs.

All of this is in electrolytes PFS protocol.

Need b2 and NADPH to recycle glutathione. So some people can have b2 def probably. and some b1

along with potassium and magnesium/

 

[Slayo]

If NADPH is offered as a supplement (maybe Alibaba) that would probably conclude if NADPH is the root cause of fixing it. Someone is bound to get their hands on it

I used it, a company in uk sells it in capsules, helen posted the link months ago, did nothing for me

 

[Helen]

I used it, a company in uk sells it in capsules, helen posted the link months ago, did nothing for me

YOu used NADPH? Noway. You used may be some NADH with malic acid thing.

 

[Helen]

Wont Tei/ arl will eventually raise NADPH? So far I think this is the best course of action we have.

Yes they should be able to upregulate it overtime.

 

[Shadow]

This is interesting @Helen as far as I know, no one looked into this yet, I read a little about estrone and estradiol. We know that on post SSRI, estadiol + dht help with sexual problems in males, a guy on pssdforum tested the combo.

 

[Ocguy]

The very first time I ran labs to try and figure wtf was wrong with me,
I noticed estrone was at the top of the scale vs e2 - which was basically normal..

I commented to my Dr. Obviously he didn't have an answer.. lowering it didn't help me btw..

 

[Chapman]

@Helen would this work NADPH Factors pack of 60 capsules ?

@Slayo is this what you took?

Just the co factors from looking at it.

 

[Slayo]

@Helen would this work NADPH Factors pack of 60 capsules ?

@Slayo is this what you took?

Just the co factors from looking at it.

Yes, i took that one

 

[bruschi11]

@Slayo @Helen i don’t think it really would’ve mattered if Slayo took it. He has something beyond PFS that is at the bottom of his problems likely mold.

PFS isn’t going to budge with a severe problem just like my mycoplasma when I was really bad. Progesterone did nothing until I took care of mycoplasma. Nothing will do anything for a lot of guys until they get to the root of their major underlying issues.

@Ocguy will tell you same thing. We both had Lyme, co-infections. With these existing, we both had zero shot of making any progress with “imbalance type approaches.”

Gotta figure a way to get that mold out of you @Slayo man, thinking of you bud.

 

[Helen]

@Slayo @Helen i don’t think it really would’ve mattered if Slayo took it. He has something beyond PFS that is at the bottom of his problems likely mold.

PFS isn’t going to budge with a severe problem just like my mycoplasma when I was really bad. Progesterone did nothing until I took care of mycoplasma. Nothing will do anything for a lot of guys until they get to the root of their major underlying issues.

@Ocguy will tell you same thing. We both had Lyme, co-infections. With these existing, we both had zero shot of making any progress with “imbalance type approaches.”

Gotta figure a way to get that mold out of you @Slayo man, thinking of you bud.

I had crazy reactions to mold also. this has nothing to do with infection or mold. Reaction to mold is just an imbalance, and it is connected to methylation.