Experimental Hair Loss Options

[Helen]

Guys, you should understand, that I am against mineral supplements. I am pro chelation. Zeolites are really good.

I am pro fasting. and eating healthy diet, that I outlined.

Mineral balancing is really complicated and if done correctly, it wont make you feel good. It ill make you feel bad, since all our imbalances are not from deficiencies of minerals, they are from toxicities.

SO it is possible to fix things using minerals, but minerals in this case are used only as chelators. and provokers.

@gbolduev

Daily doses for zeolite and fulvic (Wujinsan)? How long were your cycles?

I am on day 36 of a 54 day Breuss fast, getting great results. Many thanks

I have been on zeolite for years

 

[Noodle]

Guys, you should understand, that I am against mineral supplements. I am pro chelation. Zeolites are really good.

I am pro fasting. and eating healthy diet, that I outlined.

Mineral balancing is really complicated and if done correctly, it wont make you feel good. It ill make you feel bad, since all our imbalances are not from deficiencies of minerals, they are from toxicities.

SO it is possible to fix things using minerals, but minerals in this case are used only as chelators. and provokers.

@gbolduev

Daily doses for zeolite and fulvic (Wujinsan)? How long were your cycles?

I am on day 36 of a 54 day Breuss fast, getting great results. Many thanks

I have been on zeolite for years

I heard there is 'clean' zeolite (free of heavy metals:lead and aluminium)
and normal zeolite that is full of hm.

Clean Z. will act like a sponge, but normal cheap zeolite will just go through.
Zeolite full of heavy metal will NOT release heavy metals but is not as capable of removing as clean zeolite ?

 

[Aleksandr]

Guys, you should understand, that I am against mineral supplements. I am pro chelation. Zeolites are really good.

I am pro fasting. and eating healthy diet, that I outlined.

Mineral balancing is really complicated and if done correctly, it wont make you feel good. It ill make you feel bad, since all our imbalances are not from deficiencies of minerals, they are from toxicities.

SO it is possible to fix things using minerals, but minerals in this case are used only as chelators. and provokers.

@gbolduev

Daily doses for zeolite and fulvic (Wujinsan)? How long were your cycles?

I am on day 36 of a 54 day Breuss fast, getting great results. Many thanks

Dude that is a epic fast. Amazing! ! How are you feeling? Do you get light headed standing up?

 

[TubZy]

I have been talking with travis back and forth over PM's about prostaglandins for a while and has anyone tried oleuropein (found in olive oil) topically yet? It may have some potential.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129578

Given my past experimentation with prostaglandins, I defintely did get some positive results (setipiprant/OC000459) but it looks like travis is interested in tackling the issue further up the chain from PG's as well.

Another interesting compound is thymoquinone (found in Nigella sativa, black seed oil). Looks like it inhibits COX2, IL-6 as well as JAK/STAT pathway while oleuropein inhibits DKK-1 and open Wnt/B- catanin Pathway.

From Travis:

I'll read that book on the inhibitors, and see if there's a better drug out there.

But cyclosporine proves that you can do this by inhibiting interferon-γ, upstream of the prostaglandins. I've read all about the cellular machinery, and I'm convinced that interferon-γ is the main product of cyclophilins—the transcription factors that cyclosporine binds to with such high-affinity that they were named after it.

So any immune resonse—be it from food allergy or infection—could upregulate interferon-γ. Totally eliminating linoleic acid would be a good idea as well (impossible, I know).

I think cortisol mainly works through TGF-β . . . which diffuses to other cells and transcribes COX-2, producing more prostaglandins.

It all ends with prostaglandins, and I think they have a fundamental role in controlling the hair cycle through the PPAR receptors. Something has to do it, as we all know that hair follows a cycle. The only things which rise and fall naturally in accord with the hair cycle seem to be TGF-β and prostaglandins, and too much linoleic acid and interferon-γ likely upset this balance.

Aspirin inhibits all COX-2 enzymes, so it will inhibit all prostaglandins. The COX-2 inhibitors do provide good evidence that the ratio matters more than the total amounts.

But COX-2 inhibitors do nothing about arachidonic acid released from phospolipse A₂. Arachidonic is a hormone in its own right, and can act on the PPAR receptors. This could be one reason why a COX-2 inhibitor alone is not enough.

Inhibiting COX-2 without inhibiting phospolipse A₂ should lead to high level of arachidonic acid within the cell.

The best thing to do might be to avoid linoleic acid; This is difficult. I just read this here 2004 article on the "Hair Cycle," and they seemed so confused back then:

Paus, Ralf, and Kerstin Foitzik. "In search of the “hair cycle clock”: a guided tour." Differentiation (2004)​

Ralf Paus is like the world's leading expert on the hair cycle and admits that he doesn't have a clue. He does mention cyclosporine twice and FK-506 once, to give you an idea of how effective this is.

But this was pre-Garza, so there was no mention of prostaglandins. Perhaps this is why he had no clue what molecular events were responsible for controlling the hair cycle. But he did mention the Wnt/β-catenin pathway, which is highly involved in prostaglandins although this aspect of it is generally ignored. You can only focus on a few things in the cell at once, but everything out of scope is still happening (although not actually being measured).

This is more interesting than you might think at first, as the hair cycle is essentially the only cyclical biological phenomenon (besides the circadian rhythm: controlled by light.) When a hair is removed from the skin, it retains the same rhythm; this shows that it doesn't not depend of signals from other cells to function normally.

I think it's gotta be cytokines creating prostaglandins that work through the PPAR receptors, along with high linoleic acid and allergies creating noise in the signalling. I'll find-out later today what controls the keratin genes in the hair follicle, as keratin is the real physical cause of hair growth—keratin it is hair growth.

I am almost certain that nearly all the keratin genes will be found to have PPAR response elements—certain sequences of DNA which indicate what it controlling it.

I'll keep looking into this. As always, I'm learning quite a bit about other areas of biology and biochemistry in the process of learning about this one. The hair cycle provided me an introduction to how cytokines actually work, and how prostaglandins are formed.

There are two forms of prostaglandin D₂ synthase: one in the cell, and one in the blood. I get the feeling that perhaps there's so much arachidonic in that is spills-over in the lymph, where bloodborn prostaglandin D₂ synthase creates prostaglandin D₂. It could be part a syptom of arachidonic acid overload, but Garza had shown that it causes hair loss directly; so it's probably both a cause and en effect.

Mice bred to lack PPARγ have scarring alopecia. This is important, as PPARγ transcribes genes that help to detoxify excessive prostaglandins (through peroxisomes.)

Perhaps if you can say it in one sentence., I would simply say excessive arachidonic acid release—linoleic acid being the only precursor.


I don't try anything. I'm just write and read science. But I am certain that oleuropein would work, to an extent, but not as much as cyclosporin can.

You should check out my latest post! It appears that keratin is under control off PPARγ, and inhibited by PPARs β and δ. Keratin essentially is hair, and this could be the final link.

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Sounds good. Inhibiting COX-2 while replacing it with only PPARγ agonists might be a good idea. Oleoropein appears to be a PPARγ agonist (and a COX-2 inhibitor) but we still need to find out where all this prostaglandin D₂ is coming from. There are two types of this enzyme: one in cell and one in the blood.* I get the feeling that it's coming from the blood.

*Lipocalin-like prostaglandin 2 synthase. Must find-out more about this enzyme

Haven't looked into that one yet, but it's small—making it readily-diffusable.

Oleocanthal, basically the aglygone of oleuropein, has been found more effect at inhibiting COX-2. This was headlined in the journal nature a few decades ago. Oleuropein appears to be a PPARα agonist. This is good, as PPARα appears to control half the hair keratin genes—the other half being controlled by PPARγ. The prostaglandin receptors PPARβ/δ are the ones which inhibit PPARα/γ, and activating this has been shown to cause hair loss in rats. It's these receptors that prostaglandin D₂ must activate.

This would explain why prostaglandin D₂ causes hair growth, while some inhibit it. They activate different PPAR receptors—some controlling keratin, and some inhibiting it directly in the nucleus.

Check-out how close the β-catenin pathway is the prostaglandins. As far as I'm concerned, it is simply the prostaglandin pathway when the researchers decide to focus on proteins and don't even measure lipids. You can measure only half the signal (proteins), surely, but it makes more sense when you keep your eye on the prostaglandins as well. Many of these molecular biologists specialize in gel electrophoresis, and don't use the gas chromatography and thin plate chromatography needed to measure prostaglandins. I think the β-catenin pathway could be like watching an Olympic curling match thinking the guy brushing is controlling the entire motion of the stone.

A reasearcher proved a few years ago that β-catenin can't do anything without PPARγ and a prostaglandin. They work in tandem.

 

[tfcjesse]

Great stuff [mention]TubZy[/mention]. I follow Travis over on RPF and try to make sense of his posts. Seems like he’s making headway. I talked with him a few months ago about the liquid solution of cyclosporine that was formulated for optimal topical absorption, it’s called Neoral. Not sure if anyone has tried it, but it seems close to what he claims ideal...

Interesting too about avoiding linoleic acid, it does indeed sound hard to do. As for the Oleuropein, I’ve not tried it but I have read about people slathering olive oil on their scalps and using a boar bristle brush to distribute it...of course, progress is tough to track.

 

[TubZy]

Great stuff @TubZy. I follow Travis over on RPF and try to make sense of his posts. Seems like he’s making headway. I talked with him a few months ago about the liquid solution of cyclosporine that was formulated for optimal topical absorption, it’s called Neoral. Not sure if anyone has tried it, but it seems close to what he claims ideal...

Interesting too about avoiding linoleic acid, it does indeed sound hard to do. As for the Oleuropein, I’ve not tried it but I have read about people slathering olive oil on their scalps and using a boar bristle brush to distribute it...of course, progress is tough to track.

Yeah man, I have liquid cyclo gels too, however it is cut with some filler or something and can't get the stuff to dissolve in olive oil like the studies showed and I'm definitely not a fan of taking this stuff orally so I just gave up lol

As for the oleuropein, I found a good non toxic legit homemade shampoo that I think you can add the olive leaf extract/oleuropein to. You could just probably add the liquid olive leaf extract to pure olive oil and let it on your scalp for a few hours, I just hate oils, so that homemade shampoo (below) in addition to the added oleuropein could maybe work if you let it sit long in the shower too

Here is the list:
Virgin olive oil (1 cup)
Evening primrose oil (1 teaspoon)
Apple cider vinegar (2 teaspoons)
Baking soda (1 teaspoon)

Maybe you could sub out the evening primrose and put in the black seed oil for the thymoquinone so you get both.

 

[tfcjesse]

Cool might try that out. Is ACV confirmed as good for the hair/scalp? I know it’s pretty strong stuff.

As for the cyclosporine, the Neoral comes already dissolved in olive oil/Castor mix. Would be easy to apply.

 

[TubZy]

Cool might try that out. Is ACV confirmed as good for the hair/scalp? I know it’s pretty strong stuff.

As for the cyclosporine, the Neoral comes already dissolved in olive oil/Castor mix. Would be easy to apply.

When it is not diluted I tried it a while back and it kind of was irritating, but when it is diluted it seems fine now way better.

Really, it is a scrip though right? You should give it a shot and try it topically, you have it prescribed right?

 

[Aleksandr]

Guys, you should understand, that I am against mineral supplements. I am pro chelation. Zeolites are really good.

I am pro fasting. and eating healthy diet, that I outlined.

Mineral balancing is really complicated and if done correctly, it wont make you feel good. It ill make you feel bad, since all our imbalances are not from deficiencies of minerals, they are from toxicities.

SO it is possible to fix things using minerals, but minerals in this case are used only as chelators. and provokers.

I'm interested in chelation since i will be unable to do long fasts for various reasons. I am a slow 4. It sounds like fasts are basically just chelations anyway. Does chelation with zeolites work for fast oxidisers too?

From memory you used ZeoActiv8 - it says to put this in drops of water. Take 2 hours away from food or other supplements.
Quote from zeoactive8 website:
"very effective in its ability to draw in (absorb) the heavy metals, inorganic compounds and toxins that the body cannot dispose of itself"

You say imbalances are only from toxicities... When I had my hair test done, I didn't really have any toxicities under "toxic elements"... Are they hidden toxicities? Can you talk more about this?

Thanks

 

[Orion]

Dude that is a epic fast. Amazing! ! How are you feeling? Do you get light headed standing up?

Doing well, energy levels are good, sleeping well, I am fatigued but it is manageable, get light headed once in awhile, nothing too severe.

 

[JonnyCraig]

Based on gbold's new posts..

NEW REGIMEN:

Morning - 22mg zinc/10mg manganese
Night - Advanced Ferrochel by Source Naturals - 1 tablet before bed (Iron)

DROPPED Copper.

F.Y.I - My diet is now VERY HIGH in seafood.. stopped eating meat, chicken, dairy, fruit juice.

Also drinking a lot of low sodium V8. It has ADDED potassium chloride, magnesium sulphate, etc.. very interesting! 1 cup is 850mg of potassium! <-- is this a good idea??

 

[mattyb]

I'm just going to repeat what Gbold said when someone else started taking iron.

DON'T TAKE IRON

 

[Jamie]

Based on gbold's new posts..

NEW REGIMEN:

Morning - 22mg zinc/10mg manganese
Night - Advanced Ferrochel by Source Naturals - 1 tablet before bed (Iron)

DROPPED Copper.

F.Y.I - My diet is now VERY HIGH in seafood.. stopped eating meat, chicken, dairy, fruit juice.

Also drinking a lot of low sodium V8. It has ADDED potassium chloride, magnesium sulphate, etc.. very interesting! 1 cup is 850mg of potassium! <-- is this a good idea??

"PLus people should be aware that iron deficiency is the reason also for hairloss.

SO b2 with iron for some people can stop it"

Are you completely sure you are Iron deficient? Iron is crucial in production pregnenolone and dht so I don't think it is safety to take it without any lab results.

 

[HerrFisch]

Iron can be good if you're bleeding a lot and / or are female. (or Hcl deficiency)

 

[Rez]

Yea, I'm pretty sure iron deficiency is almost unheard of in males. Possible, but rare.

 

[Raincoast]

V8 high in copper.

 

[Ivy]

I would like to ask @[mention]TubZy[/mention] or [mention]mattyb[/mention] , can we have separate threads for each protocol?

A sort of if this > then that ?

The insane amount of repetitions, iterations, contradictions, personal tweaks is making general threads really hard to follow.

For instance, shouldn't the two mineral protocols Gbolduev suggested be properly differentiated?

 

[Area-1255]

Hair loss is complicated. Prostaglandin's are a big part of it. But let's not forget that Aspirin does not necessarily mean you will interrupt your results - especially if the prostaglandin protocol is being used - then in that case you are using synthetic versions anyway. It could be more strategic that way. So in the same sense, going off and using Fish Oil probably won't help anything much. Although, if it does, its more likely an interaction with androgens producing the results.

 

[mattyb]

I would like to ask @@TubZy or @mattyb , can we have separate threads for each protocol?

A sort of if this > then that ?

The insane amount of repetitions, iterations, contradictions, personal tweaks is making general threads really hard to follow.

For instance, shouldn't the two mineral protocols Gbolduev suggested be properly differentiated?

You are welcome to start any thread on any topic that you want. Don't wait for someone else to do it if you want to discuss a specific protocol.

This is just a general thread for discussing any experimental hair loss strategy. You aren't limited to discussing gbold's strategies.

 

[Area-1255]

V8 high in copper.

So is Chocolate. So are kidney beans. So are most vegan foods. That's part of why vegans have trouble accelerating muscle growth. They care so much about "detoxification" and being clean yet harbor Copper dominance. I have nothing against Vegans though, but for the ones who recklessly take up the lifestyle without assessing all angles, and expect things not to be imbalanced, ya know. :mrgreen: