FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)

freeflow

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Are you still drinking tomato juice or cut it out?
I just eat quite much tomatos and tomato pasta, dont get the 5ari effects from them. Just if i overdose on an empty stomach, same with coconut oil.
I think R andro is very good for me, decreasing 5 alpha reductase while still having lots of DHT floating around.
 

Helen

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One of the most difficult things about this is that PFS isn't just one kind of imbalance - some could be high NADPH low NADP while others are the opposite, some could be high 5-alpha low 5-beta while others are opposite. This is why we see a wide variety of symptoms and why protocols that help some hurt others. I think it would be beneficial for us to start collecting and analyzing stats forum-wide, like how baseline symptoms correlate to response to certain protocols, blood tests, hair tests, etc. Some correlations are already somewhat clear, like with mineral imbalances and such, but others involving NADPH/NADP and 5-alpha/5-beta are sketchy at best. We should start quantifying the anecdotal evidence and connect some dots to identify what the different types of imbalances look like, since there's already a wealth of data on here.

This is why I stress on doing the hairtests and not guess.
 

IHateFin

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One of the most difficult things about this is that PFS isn't just one kind of imbalance - some could be high NADPH low NADP while others are the opposite, some could be high 5-alpha low 5-beta while others are opposite. This is why we see a wide variety of symptoms and why protocols that help some hurt others. I think it would be beneficial for us to start collecting and analyzing stats forum-wide, like how baseline symptoms correlate to response to certain protocols, blood tests, hair tests, etc. Some correlations are already somewhat clear, like with mineral imbalances and such, but others involving NADPH/NADP and 5-alpha/5-beta are sketchy at best. We should start quantifying the anecdotal evidence and connect some dots to identify what the different types of imbalances look like, since there's already a wealth of data on here.


where does one get hair tests done? would we test nadp/nadph through blood or hair test? i would be down to get this done.
 

Niles

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670
where does one get hair tests done? would we test nadp/nadph through blood or hair test? i would be down to get this done.

Well that's the thing, we would have to do some forum-wide data collection of symptoms, blood tests, hair tests, and response to different protocols to try to find correlations that point to different types of NADP/NADPH imbalances. Hair/blood tests alone wouldn't give a clear indication of that (that I know of). @gbolduev do you think one could deduce NADP/NADPH levels from hair/blood tests?

But just call ARL and tell them where you live - they'll email you a list of practitioners in your area that work with them: 602-995-1580
 
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expendable

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Here's a good question, when I go get my hair test should I stop all supplements beforehand and if so, how big of a gap do I need to leave?
 

Aleksandr

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1,285
where does one get hair tests done? would we test nadp/nadph through blood or hair test? i would be down to get this done.
Mate 8 months later down the gbold rabbit hole you still haven't got a hair test?!?! Spending to much $$$ on random supplements!

I think it should be mandatory everyone gets an ARL or TEI hair test before they ask questions about lifestyle or supplements. Its rarely what you think it will be.


BTW I think we should have a long-term view here. I've already ordered my 2nd hair test. In a few years time, i'll have like 5 hair tests and be taking supplements to target my exact imbalances. I'll know what lifestyle and diets and supplements do what to my physiology, and hopefully will have cracked the code by then. Instead of randomly taking a stab in the dark with extreme doses of supplements. I plan to live for a lot longer, at least 40 or 50 years more. So whats 3 or 4 years doing hair tests in the scheme of that to get balanced energy and good health? The alternative seems to just be taking a stab in the dark and HOPEFULLY getting lucky. But as we know, thats not super likely. And then if something goes wrong again, what do you do then?
 

Diesel

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where does one get hair tests done? would we test nadp/nadph through blood or hair test? i would be down to get this done.

The Dutch test would be able to confirm if you have low or high 5-alpha or 5-beta. It would be good if a few people on here could take this test. I think one guy on here already took it. Here is a sample of what the test result would look like. IMG_4821.PNGIMG_4821.PNG
 

Slayo

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534
The Dutch test would be able to confirm if you have low or high 5-alpha or 5-beta. It would be good if a few people on here could take this test. I think one guy on here already took it. Here is a sample of what the test result would look like. View attachment 302View attachment 302
yeah, i did it, is is very informative, it tests also free cortisol and metabolised cortisol, cortisone, melatonin, etc
 

Helen

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yeah, i did it, is is very informative, it tests also free cortisol and metabolised cortisol, cortisone, melatonin, etc


Hey,could you post your Dutch test in your log? Would be really interesting to look at it.
 

bruschi11

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Working on getting my urinary hormone metabolite test done 3 weeks after I crashed 13 months ago. Will be interesting.
 

tallglass13

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287
So Finasteride is doing something right, right? If it grows hair for goodness sakes. And if low low dose is better, that how can we emulate what it does through more natural ways.
 

tallglass13

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287
Use the health/electrolyte protocol
eat a healthful diet'...seafood, spinach, juices of veggies
androsterone....
this is a start I guess...get hairtest of course
the point should be how to become the best we can possibly be. Be better than pre-fin days. I had problems before using finasteride. Why was I losing hair in my early 20's. Over sexed, undernourished, to much cheap beer, drugs.
 

TubZy

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Don't think anyone posted this yet
Finasteride - A Patient Case Exploring the Downstream Effects of a 5α-Reductase Inhibitor

Finasteride in relation to NADPH while bound to 5-beta-reductase, note the distance between the hydride on NADPH (purple) and the sp2 hybridized carbon on finasteride (green).
Finasteride reduces intraprostatic and serum DHT, reducing the growth rate, halting growth completely, or even reducing the size of the prostate.2 The downstream effect of 5α-R inhibition by finasteride results in altered gene expression resulting in a reduction of the expression and thus the number of androgen receptors in prostate epithelial cells. The reduction of androgen receptor expression is also correlated with prostatic epithelial cell atrophy which may be contributory to BPH relief, specifically a decrease in size.

The conversion enzyme 5α-R has three isozymes identified as 5α-R1, 2, and 3 with each performing similar functions in different tissues.4 The 5α-R2 enzyme is shown to be responsible for a majority of DHT synthesis, as opposed to the other isozymes.4
Originally, it was thought that finasteride was a competitive inhibitor with affinity for 5-α-reductase type 2, but it has been recently shown that it acts as a mechanism-based inactivator of 5α-R2. 5 This mechanism works by NADPH donating a hydride to the 1,2-ene double bond of finasteride, which then allows NADP+ to covalently bind to dihydrofinasteride at the enzyme active site, forming a NADP+ - dihydrofinasteride complex. 5 It is this bisubstrate that has affinity for 5α-R2. 5 Refer to Figure 3 for a stepwise diagram showing the mechanism-based inactivation of 5α-R2 by finasteride.

After exploring the mechanism of action of finasteride, there are possible areas of improvement in order to decrease side effects. The downstream side effects could potentially be reduced by increasing specificity for 5α-R2 so there are fewer interactions with 5α-R1. The most direct means of improving specificity would be to obtain an x-ray crystallography structure of finasteride in a 5α-R2 enzyme. The binding of finasteride to 5β-R does not result in a reduction reaction, while the binding of finasteride to 5α-R does result in a reduction reaction. As these two enzymes utilize the same cofactor, these differences in reactivity must be due to differences in enzyme structure. As the names of the two enzymes suggest, they both reduce double bonds, but add hydrogens to distinct faces of the steroid skeleton. Obtaining a structure of 5α-R in complex with finasteride and cofactor may elucidate the interaction between finasteride and 5α-R.5 This would allow for specific investigation of molecular changes that could be made to finasteride in an effort to improve specificity for this enzyme.

Finasteride binds selectively to 5α-R2 significantly reducing the number of adverse side effects seen. One area of improvement may be in reducing the effects of sexual dysfunction including decreased libido, impotence, and ejaculation disorder. These side effects may occur because 5α-R2 inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT. A secondary explanation of side effects may be the ability for small amounts of finasteride to cross the blood brain barrier. In keeping the effectiveness of the drug, changing selectivity of binding in the prostate is not a good idea. However, one proposed alteration to the molecular make up of finasteride to reduce these side effects may be to add a more polar group or steric bulk to the amide nitrogen on finasteride. In doing so, it would potentially decrease the drug's ability to cross the blood brain barrier leading to less binding in the hypothalamus, pituitary and cerebral cortex.

Summary
The affinity of finasteride with 5-beta-reductase is a result of the orientation of finasteride in the enzyme active site and H-bond interactions between finasteride and 5-Beta-reductase. Finasteride binds several reductase enzymes, with the significant clinical effects deriving from 5-alpha-reductase enzymes. The side effects of sexual dysfunction, and hypotension must be weighed against the benefit of the medication when determining its use in patients with BPH.
 

bruschi11

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This is Dutch Test from early 1/2017. 3 weeks after I crashed and 6 weeks after my last finasteride pill. There are 3 more pages to this test, will be in my next post due to maximum data or something.

NOTE: I was on TRT at the time.

@gbolduev
 

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bruschi11

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Here's second part. Does the elevated THF/ 5a-THF ratio mean that 5b is elevated in me here? What would you do in this instance?
 

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Niles

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Here's second part. Does the elevated THF/ 5a-THF ratio mean that 5b is elevated in me here? What would you do in this instance?

Your hormone levels here look a lot like mine now. Did you happen to get hormones tested again before trying RU? I'm wondering if I can follow your trajectory of recovery and maybe do an RU cycle in a few months time, once I stabilize with my holistic protocol.
 

bruschi11

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@Niles I did not get hormones done again. What testing do you have done? Want to point me to them or share them?
 

jacknap

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463
I have lost 0 hair on r andro. I also had 0 libido and 0 erections on it. While my digestion normalized and stools got very dark.
Coconut oil was the other 5ari that made me recover for 1-2 days, apart from tomato juice. The recovery was a jump from 10-20% to a good 70%. Orgasm crashed the coconut oil recovery too, had so much libido and strong erections i had to fap.

Also copper is working for me wonderfully, too bad after some days It made me feel wanting to throw up and nausea all day. Could be low potassium symptom, I will try with electrolytes soon.
I feel this explanation is covering me and my reactions so well.

strange i lost little hair on r andro as well. I do have periods where my head feels itchy and when it does hair falls out though. I'm not even sure if DHT was the reason for my hair loss tho and I think that's why I got so fucked from just one night dose.
 

IHateFin

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has anyone had benefits these days from pregnenalone? anyone try that post ru?