gbold and mattyb discuss chloride and random health topics

[mattyb]

Yeah the RDA is 400mg for Mg but I never see people hit it in dietary records. Most people get like 200mg per day. Adding in even 100mg can be significant. I would personally take more than 100mg if it was me though. The body can easily dump excess Mg if it needs to.

The 100mg of K is laughable. I have my suspicion it's the Cl- doing something in that case, since it can displace bicarb in the cell and help acidify by creating HCl for gastric acid.

 

[Aleksandr]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4279" time="1510788033" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
Yeah the RDA is 400mg for Mg but I never see people hit it in dietary records. Most people get like 200mg per day. Adding in even 100mg can be significant. I would personally take more than 100mg if it was me though. The body can easily dump excess Mg if it needs to.<br/>
<br/>
The 100mg of K is laughable. I have my suspicion it's the Cl- doing something in that case, since it can displace bicarb in the cell and help acidify by creating HCl for gastric acid.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

That adds an extra dimension to the equation.<br/>
<br/>
The mag i have to use is magnesium chloride. The potassium i have is potassium bicarbonate. I also have sodium bicarbonate <br/>
<br/>
What is the type of potassium scenes is using? Does copper have different types as well?</r>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="m_arch" post_id="4277" time="1510787649" user_id="66"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4252" time="1510755350" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="wuf" post_id="4251" time="1510753041" user_id="65"><s>

</s>
I still don't understand what are supplements usefull in this specific case.<br/>
I mean, we are trying to cure our condition by using minerals supplements, fine.. but what does it changefrom eating food?<br/>
I mean everyday we eat food and get those minarals from it, why should a supplement works better?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Because it's way more of those minerals (with the exception of potassium, because 100mg is like a drop in the bucket, barely anything). But for magnesium and copper it essentially doubles or triples most people's regular intake of those minerals. Some people waste excess minerals or have problems with uptake, and may even require larger doses of these supplements. <br/>
<br/>
IMO this is why over the long run it's important not to be deficient or in excess of any one nutrient. Cronometer is super useful to see how on track you are. It's also important to try and eat fresh and local food as much as possible, as they're more likely to have higher mineral/vitamin content as well.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Rdi of magnesium is 400mg<br/>
Rdi of copper is 1.6mg<br/>
Rdi of potassium is 4700mg<br/>
<br/>
Scenes is taking 100mg magnesium (probably not doubling his intake? The magnesium advocacy group says to take 850mg for a male a day. Gbold said theyre fat with grey hair so not to listen to him... but ive never seen a photo of gbold lol)<br/>
<br/>
2.5mg copper (yeah this is the big one!!)<br/>
<br/>
100mg potassium (im suprised this is so low)<br/>
<br/>
@scenes did gbold give you these recommendations for dosage amounts directly?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I have no idea why you are following his protocol, I specifically said to look at JoeKool protocol, since he is taking more normal dosages of minerals.<br/>
<br/>
I am taking 3k potassium and 700 magnesium in my protocol.<br/>
<br/>
this is for PFS people. for normal people their problems have nothing to do with magnesium. It has not do with problems with glutathione and acetaldehyde. those problems lower their B2 and molybdenum which then cause problems with cortisol . Cortisol stop calcium absorbtion. So you are deficient in calcium, and when you take magnesium you cause even more deficiency thus you go grey. But in this body chemistry you cant take calcium in. Until you fix redox. This is why many people fail on Ray Peats diet. Calcium will be needed , but much much later<br/>
<br/>
Morley robbins just piles everything in that protocol from everywhere . Eck, Watts, Rick malter.<br/>
<br/>
Magnesium in this cases will cause even less glutathione, since it will cause LEAD to come out in the blood and ruin copper metabolism. And many many people are lead toxic.<br/>
<br/>
So it is better to fix your redox first , and then magnesium will actually go down and will not be as needed.<br/>
<br/>
You cant fix alkalosis without getting rid of the actual problem. taking acids and chlorides, will cause more problems and won't solve anything since chloride deficiency is very rare . Most people have problems with steroids.<br/>
<br/>
If you have low chloride, it could be from potassium deficiency also.</r>

 

[Aleksandr]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="gbolduev" post_id="4281" time="1510789538" user_id="90"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="m_arch" post_id="4277" time="1510787649" user_id="66"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4252" time="1510755350" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
<br/>
<br/>
Because it's way more of those minerals (with the exception of potassium, because 100mg is like a drop in the bucket, barely anything). But for magnesium and copper it essentially doubles or triples most people's regular intake of those minerals. Some people waste excess minerals or have problems with uptake, and may even require larger doses of these supplements. <br/>
<br/>
IMO this is why over the long run it's important not to be deficient or in excess of any one nutrient. Cronometer is super useful to see how on track you are. It's also important to try and eat fresh and local food as much as possible, as they're more likely to have higher mineral/vitamin content as well.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Rdi of magnesium is 400mg<br/>
Rdi of copper is 1.6mg<br/>
Rdi of potassium is 4700mg<br/>
<br/>
Scenes is taking 100mg magnesium (probably not doubling his intake? The magnesium advocacy group says to take 850mg for a male a day. Gbold said theyre fat with grey hair so not to listen to him... but ive never seen a photo of gbold lol)<br/>
<br/>
2.5mg copper (yeah this is the big one!!)<br/>
<br/>
100mg potassium (im suprised this is so low)<br/>
<br/>
@scenes did gbold give you these recommendations for dosage amounts directly?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I have no idea why you are following his protocol, I specifically said to look at JoeKool protocol, since he is taking more normal dosages of minerals.<br/>
<br/>
I am taking 3k potassium and 700 magnesium in my protocol.<br/>
<br/>
this is for PFS people. for normal people their problems have nothing to do with magnesium. It has not do with problems with glutathione and acetaldehyde. those problems lower their B2 and molybdenum which then cause problems with cortisol . Cortisol stop calcium absorbtion. So you are deficient in calcium, and when you take magnesium you cause even more deficiency thus you go grey. But in this body chemistry you cant take calcium in. Until you fix redox. This is why many people fail on Ray Peats diet. Calcium will be needed , but much much later<br/>
<br/>
Morley robbins just piles everything in that protocol from everywhere . Eck, Watts, Rick malter.<br/>
<br/>
Magnesium in this cases will cause even less glutathione, since it will cause LEAD to come out in the blood and ruin copper metabolism. And many many people are lead toxic.<br/>
<br/>
So it is better to fix your redox first , and then magnesium will actually go down and will not be as needed.<br/>
<br/>
You cant fix alkalosis without getting rid of the actual problem. taking acids and chlorides, will cause more problems and won't solve anything since chloride deficiency is very . Most people have problems with steroids.<br/>
<br/>
If you have low chloride, it could be from potassium deficiency also.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

joekools protocol shows 550mg potassium 250mg magnesium and copper (doesnt specify, i assume 2.5mg). Still much lower than yours. But hes also taking zinc glycine taurine l theanine etc etc and herbs<br/>
<br/>
My hair test showed calcium, magnesium and potassium deficiency. With high sodium (which im taking licorice root to lower)</r>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="m_arch" post_id="4282" time="1510791360" user_id="66"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="gbolduev" post_id="4281" time="1510789538" user_id="90"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="m_arch" post_id="4277" time="1510787649" user_id="66"><s>

</s>
<br/>
<br/>
Rdi of magnesium is 400mg<br/>
Rdi of copper is 1.6mg<br/>
Rdi of potassium is 4700mg<br/>
<br/>
Scenes is taking 100mg magnesium (probably not doubling his intake? The magnesium advocacy group says to take 850mg for a male a day. Gbold said theyre fat with grey hair so not to listen to him... but ive never seen a photo of gbold lol)<br/>
<br/>
2.5mg copper (yeah this is the big one!!)<br/>
<br/>
100mg potassium (im suprised this is so low)<br/>
<br/>
@scenes did gbold give you these recommendations for dosage amounts directly?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I have no idea why you are following his protocol, I specifically said to look at JoeKool protocol, since he is taking more normal dosages of minerals.<br/>
<br/>
I am taking 3k potassium and 700 magnesium in my protocol.<br/>
<br/>
this is for PFS people. for normal people their problems have nothing to do with magnesium. It has not do with problems with glutathione and acetaldehyde. those problems lower their B2 and molybdenum which then cause problems with cortisol . Cortisol stop calcium absorbtion. So you are deficient in calcium, and when you take magnesium you cause even more deficiency thus you go grey. But in this body chemistry you cant take calcium in. Until you fix redox. This is why many people fail on Ray Peats diet. Calcium will be needed , but much much later<br/>
<br/>
Morley robbins just piles everything in that protocol from everywhere . Eck, Watts, Rick malter.<br/>
<br/>
Magnesium in this cases will cause even less glutathione, since it will cause LEAD to come out in the blood and ruin copper metabolism. And many many people are lead toxic.<br/>
<br/>
So it is better to fix your redox first , and then magnesium will actually go down and will not be as needed.<br/>
<br/>
You cant fix alkalosis without getting rid of the actual problem. taking acids and chlorides, will cause more problems and won't solve anything since chloride deficiency is very . Most people have problems with steroids.<br/>
<br/>
If you have low chloride, it could be from potassium deficiency also.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

joekools protocol shows 550mg potassium 250mg magnesium and copper (doesnt specify, i assume 2.5mg). Still much lower than yours. But hes also taking zinc glycine taurine l theanine etc etc and herbs<br/>
<br/>
My hair test showed calcium, magnesium and potassium deficiency. With high sodium (which im taking licorice root to lower)
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

He outlined how much copper he is taking. Plus I am also taking zinc which I also outlined. in PFS thread.</r>

 

[expendable]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r>Hmm.<br/>
<br/>
So the 2x99mg of potassium I'm supplementing every day might as well be nothing, huh? What do I have to do, consign myself to eating potatoes and bananas every day for the next 3 months? <E>:lol:</E> <br/>
<br/>
Why not just get potassium chloride. Use instead of salt. That way you get more potassium AND more chloride. Should I be watching my salt intake, by the way? Is ingesting too much sodium a problem? Man this stuff is so complicated.</r>

 

[Scenes]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>Yeah when I got the potassium tabs in the mail I saw it was 2% of rdi and was like wtf they even make these for!?<br/>
<br/>
I’ve been drinking loads of tomato juice for potassium, one cup is around 500mg as I understand it.<br/>
<br/>
I’ve also upped my magnesium to around 700mg a day after reading gbold last few days. Copper is about 6mg.<br/>
<br/>
Zinc I will add in a week or so 30mg.<br/>
<br/>
Also I was never doing 100mg magnesium...did I say I was? One tab is 137mg and I was doing 2 twice a day.<br/>
<br/>
And end of day it’s fkn working...</t>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="gbolduev" post_id="4281" time="1510789538" user_id="90"><s>

</s>
You cant fix alkalosis without getting rid of the actual problem. taking acids and chlorides, will cause more problems and won't solve anything since chloride deficiency is very rare . Most people have problems with steroids.<br/>
<br/>
If you have low chloride, it could be from potassium deficiency also.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Chloride deficiency is not rare at all. Hypochloremia is by far one of the most common electrolyte disturbances I see on blood tests in the lab. Yes, sometimes the blood hypochloremia is due to increased intracellular shift of Cl- or volume expansion leading to dilution, but this is often not the case. It is strongly driven by renal excretion and chronic sweat loss, more so than most think.<br/>
<br/>
It's just super overlooked and seen as unimportant by like everyone. I've seen it in a lot of people who aren't potassium or salt deficient either, even myself (good diets, good serum K levels, good salt intake).<br/>
<br/>
Very common to see it in people with resp acidosis and compensatory high bicarb displacing Cl- and causing chloride wasting. Yes K+ wasting can happen alongside it, but it's not the driving factor in many cases. Met alkalosis can drive Cl- wasting. At some point correcting low Cl- has to be done, either on the front or back end of treatment.<br/>
<br/>
There is utility in driving up chloride in some people. It's not a useless strategy at all.</r>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>Met alkalosis will not drive chloride wasting.( unless it is potassium deficiency) Chloride loss can cause met alkalosis.( vomitting) Manganese toxicity can causes chloride wasting by increasing acetylcholine.( resp acidosis) Potassium loss from the cell can lower chlorides, this is what I see in most cases.<br/>
<br/>
Chloride deficiency causes potassium to shift inside of the cell. It is not hypokalemia. Potassium stores are fine. But actual hypokalemia will cause chloride wasting. <br/>
<br/>
Why would metabolic alkalosis cause chloride waste? metabolic alkalosis is a compensation for potassium loss. and in most cases it is super stupid to give acids to people. Since potassium will be totally wasted from the cell. <br/>
<br/>
Metabolic disorders cant be looked as PH imbalances only. <br/>
<br/>
Cortisol causes metabolic alkalosis with sodium retention , as cortisol wastes potassium and outside fluid needs to be alkaline , otherwise - crash will happen. It is not about correcting PH. it is about understanding what the body is doing.<br/>
<br/>
Uric acid can waste chlorides by wasting potassium.<br/>
<br/>
Most chlorides imbalances have nothing to do with chlorides themselves<br/>
<br/>
Current medical practice most of the time is wrong on what they are doing. Thus they never balance a person. Most of what I see they take one person from one imbalance to a less severe imbalance by giving them chlorides etc and other things, instead of fixing the real problems</t>

 

[Shadow]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="gbolduev" post_id="4362" time="1510874720" user_id="90"><s>

</s>
Current medical practice most of the time is wrong on what they are doing. Thus they never balance a person. Most of what I see they take one person from one imbalance to a less severe imbalance by giving them chlorides etc and other things, instead of fixing the real problems
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I was always skeptical about this kind of assertion, but after all that happened, all that I studied, you are absolutely right gbolduev! Im not generalizing, but 90% only give you band-aids. Im curious to see what my endocrinologist will say about my blood test.</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="gbolduev" post_id="4362" time="1510874720" user_id="90"><s>

</s>
Met alkalosis will not drive chloride wasting.( unless it is potassium deficiency) Chloride loss can cause met alkalosis.( vomitting) Manganese toxicity can causes chloride wasting by increasing acetylcholine.( resp acidosis) Potassium loss from the cell can lower chlorides, this is what I see in most cases.<br/>
<br/>
Chloride deficiency causes potassium to shift inside of the cell. It is not hypokalemia. Potassium stores are fine. But actual hypokalemia will cause chloride wasting. <br/>
<br/>
Why would metabolic alkalosis cause chloride waste? metabolic alkalosis is a compensation for potassium loss. and in most cases it is super stupid to give acids to people. Since potassium will be totally wasted from the cell. <br/>
<br/>
Metabolic disorders cant be looked as PH imbalances only. <br/>
<br/>
Cortisol causes metabolic alkalosis with sodium retention , as cortisol wastes potassium and outside fluid needs to be alkaline , otherwise - crash will happen. It is not about correcting PH. it is about understanding what the body is doing.<br/>
<br/>
Uric acid can waste chlorides by wasting potassium.<br/>
<br/>
Most chlorides imbalances have nothing to do with chlorides themselves<br/>
<br/>
Current medical practice most of the time is wrong on what they are doing. Thus they never balance a person. Most of what I see they take one person from one imbalance to a less severe imbalance by giving them chlorides etc and other things, instead of fixing the real problems
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I said resp acidosis with some compensation causes chloride wasting, not metabolic alkalosis.<br/>
<br/>
And that is well known:<br/>
<URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3142351/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3142351/</URL><br/>
<br/>
"The kidney responds to chronic hypercapnea by increasing the strong ion difference. In early rat studies, chronic respiratory acidosis resulted in hypochloremia with selective increases in the filtered urine chloride but not sodium excretion (Carter, Seldin, & Teng, 1959; Polak, Haynie, Hays, & Schwartz, 1961). In dogs, exposure to 8% CO2 for 24 hours resulted in chloruresis and negative balance of chloride while sodium balance was unchanged (Levitin, Branscome, & Epstein, 1958). Yet, another study in humans demonstrated acute respiratory acidosis to have little variation in urinary sodium and chloride concentrations (Barker, Singer, Elkinton, & Clark, 1957). In a more recent study by Alfaro and coworkers (1996), it was demonstrated that hypercapnea and hypoxia in human patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease were associated with a decrease in plasma chloride without a significant change in plasma sodium, showing that these changes in SID were not due to hydration issues, but rather acid-base disorders. "<br/>
<br/>
" Both fractional excretion of chloride and that of sodium increased in response to respiratory acidosis; however, the increase in fractional excretion of chloride exceeded that of the fractional excretion of sodium."<br/>
<br/>
"This study is the first to document increased renal chloride excretion with respect to sodium within 30 minutes of the onset of acute hypercapnea. "<br/>
<br/>
And bicarb and chloride exchange is very well known. They have their own ionic transport protein in RBCs, it's well documented. HCO3- displaces Cl- and vice versa depending on the circumstances. Typically in resp acidosis there is movement of CO2 to inside the cell, converted to HCO3- and the HCO3- is moved out of the cell while Cl- is taken in. But what happens if there is constant rapid cycling of resp acidosis and met alkalosis? E.g. Someone is kyphotic and retaining CO2 (like while sitting) long enough for some bicarb compensation, then they stand up, start ventilating properly, and bicarb is still a bit elevated? At that point you have some minor hypochloremia and that aggravates the cellular alkalosis by keeping HCO3- in the cells, as it doesn't have enough Cl- for a fast exchange. People live like this every day - eat a ton, go sit down with shit posture and are kyphotic and possibly have some minor scoliosis (functional scoliosis very common in athletes), and then eventually get up and maybe exercise or walk around.<br/>
<br/>
I am not looking at metabolic disorders as simply pH issues - of course things are systemic, that's obvious. That's not what this discussion is about.<br/>
<br/>
There is utility in supplementing chloride when there is chloride wasting. This was the biggest intervention that helped me regain digestion and stop getting hives, undoubtedly. And you have to keep in mind, when I say supplementing I mean with foods - one thing about chloride is that it is almost always accompanied with lots of K+ in most foods, so the increased acid load (if paired with H+ sources) can be compensated. I hate supplements, avoid most like the plague, they imbalance everything.<br/>
<br/>
I think this is silly to pretend there is only one route to fixing these things. The body is a large system, you can affect it via many inputs - there are not single solutions to single problems. There are many solutions to single problems.</r>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4416" time="1510926751" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="gbolduev" post_id="4362" time="1510874720" user_id="90"><s>

</s>
Met alkalosis will not drive chloride wasting.( unless it is potassium deficiency) Chloride loss can cause met alkalosis.( vomitting) Manganese toxicity can causes chloride wasting by increasing acetylcholine.( resp acidosis) Potassium loss from the cell can lower chlorides, this is what I see in most cases.<br/>
<br/>
Chloride deficiency causes potassium to shift inside of the cell. It is not hypokalemia. Potassium stores are fine. But actual hypokalemia will cause chloride wasting. <br/>
<br/>
Why would metabolic alkalosis cause chloride waste? metabolic alkalosis is a compensation for potassium loss. and in most cases it is super stupid to give acids to people. Since potassium will be totally wasted from the cell. <br/>
<br/>
Metabolic disorders cant be looked as PH imbalances only. <br/>
<br/>
Cortisol causes metabolic alkalosis with sodium retention , as cortisol wastes potassium and outside fluid needs to be alkaline , otherwise - crash will happen. It is not about correcting PH. it is about understanding what the body is doing.<br/>
<br/>
Uric acid can waste chlorides by wasting potassium.<br/>
<br/>
Most chlorides imbalances have nothing to do with chlorides themselves<br/>
<br/>
Current medical practice most of the time is wrong on what they are doing. Thus they never balance a person. Most of what I see they take one person from one imbalance to a less severe imbalance by giving them chlorides etc and other things, instead of fixing the real problems
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I said resp acidosis with some compensation causes chloride wasting, not metabolic alkalosis.<br/>
<br/>
And that is well known:<br/>
<URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3142351/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3142351/</URL><br/>
<br/>
"The kidney responds to chronic hypercapnea by increasing the strong ion difference. In early rat studies, chronic respiratory acidosis resulted in hypochloremia with selective increases in the filtered urine chloride but not sodium excretion (Carter, Seldin, & Teng, 1959; Polak, Haynie, Hays, & Schwartz, 1961). In dogs, exposure to 8% CO2 for 24 hours resulted in chloruresis and negative balance of chloride while sodium balance was unchanged (Levitin, Branscome, & Epstein, 1958). Yet, another study in humans demonstrated acute respiratory acidosis to have little variation in urinary sodium and chloride concentrations (Barker, Singer, Elkinton, & Clark, 1957). In a more recent study by Alfaro and coworkers (1996), it was demonstrated that hypercapnea and hypoxia in human patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease were associated with a decrease in plasma chloride without a significant change in plasma sodium, showing that these changes in SID were not due to hydration issues, but rather acid-base disorders. "<br/>
<br/>
" Both fractional excretion of chloride and that of sodium increased in response to respiratory acidosis; however, the increase in fractional excretion of chloride exceeded that of the fractional excretion of sodium."<br/>
<br/>
"This study is the first to document increased renal chloride excretion with respect to sodium within 30 minutes of the onset of acute hypercapnea. "<br/>
<br/>
And bicarb and chloride exchange is very well known. They have their own ionic transport protein in RBCs, it's well documented. HCO3- displaces Cl- and vice versa depending on the circumstances. Typically in resp acidosis there is movement of CO2 to inside the cell, converted to HCO3- and the HCO3- is moved out of the cell while Cl- is taken in. But what happens if there is constant rapid cycling of resp acidosis and met alkalosis? E.g. Someone is kyphotic and retaining CO2 (like while sitting) long enough for some bicarb compensation, then they stand up, start ventilating properly, and bicarb is still a bit elevated? At that point you have some minor hypochloremia and that aggravates the cellular alkalosis by keeping HCO3- in the cells, as it doesn't have enough Cl- for a fast exchange. People live like this every day - eat a ton, go sit down with shit posture and are kyphotic and possibly have some minor scoliosis (functional scoliosis very common in athletes), and then eventually get up and maybe exercise or walk around.<br/>
<br/>
I am not looking at metabolic disorders as simply pH issues - of course things are systemic, that's obvious. That's not what this discussion is about.<br/>
<br/>
There is utility in supplementing chloride when there is chloride wasting. This was the biggest intervention that helped me regain digestion and stop getting hives, undoubtedly. And you have to keep in mind, when I say supplementing I mean with foods - one thing about chloride is that it is almost always accompanied with lots of K+ in most foods, so the increased acid load (if paired with H+ sources) can be compensated. I hate supplements, avoid most like the plague, they imbalance everything.<br/>
<br/>
I think this is silly to pretend there is only one route to fixing these things. The body is a large system, you can affect it via many inputs - there are not single solutions to single problems. There are many solutions to single problems.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I think to fix things to the actual balance, there is only one way to do. The other way , is to take someone from one imbalance and move to another one. Lets say fixing hives , but lowering thyroid action. OR fixing impotence but causing diabetes. <br/>
<br/>
This is unfortunately what current anesthesiology is doing.<br/>
<br/>
"Very common to see it in people with resp acidosis and compensatory high bicarb displacing Cl- and causing chloride wasting. Yes K+ wasting can happen alongside it, but it's not the driving factor in many cases. Met alkalosis can drive Cl- wasting. At some point correcting low Cl- has to be done, either on the front or back end of treatment."<br/>
<br/>
You wrote this and said that met alkalosis drives CL wasting. That is why I mentioned met alkalosis<br/>
<br/>
And I wrote this. "Met alkalosis will not drive chloride wasting.( unless it is potassium deficiency) Chloride loss can cause met alkalosis.( vomitting) Manganese toxicity can causes chloride wasting by increasing acetylcholine.( resp acidosis) Potassium loss from the cell can lower chlorides, this is what I see in most cases."<br/>
<br/>
You see I mentioned resp acidosis as a cause of chloride wasting. <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Resp acidosis is understandable. I mentioned it with manganese toxicity . And of course chloride will be wasted in resp acidosis.<br/>
<br/>
I remember I also tried chlorides at first when I was in PFS.. and it does take away the hives. I had terrible hives in PFS,.Since hives are in alkalosis. And taking chlorides allow you to use copper. Since dopamine to noradrenaline conversion happens. <br/>
<br/>
I agree with you on supplements being evil. I am staying away from those also.<br/>
<br/>
What food were you using for chloride load?</r>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>Matty, <br/>
<br/>
You have resp acidosis?<br/>
<br/>
taking HCL in resp acidosis will cause liver problems and also will cause fungus growth.<br/>
<br/>
potassium chloride of course is different. And should not be taken in resp acidosis anyway.<br/>
<br/>
Potassium will slow down breathing drive<br/>
<br/>
Sodium goes inside of the cell along with calcium in resp acidosis to increase ventilation</t>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>I think overall we are on the same page.<br/>
<br/>
I have confirmed minor functional scoliosis (probably due to sports) and used to have severe kyphosis as a teenager. I no long have chronic kyphosis, but I do have to sit in front of a laptop a lot for work, so I naturally go into kyphosis and mimic kyphoscoliosis and subsequent respiratory acidosis for periods of time. I can cause my hives if I eat a huge meal and sit for a while, and if I do this persistently over days symptoms get worse and worse each day. I can tell when things get bad because my costochondritis flares up when sitting too much (again caused by MSK issues, and I have exercises to treat this too), the pain impacts my breathing more severely, and then worse hives start up later on. If I do this consistently for too long, my digestion turns to shit over a few days and hives are at their worst. <br/>
<br/>
The hives will often be their worse after I get up and start actually moving around after a period of sitting/eating carbs. I am guessing at this point I can expel the CO2, and then I am left with compensatory metabolic alkalosis driving Ca2+/histamine exchange in mast cells. Like you said, alkalosis causes hives. I typically don't get hives if I lay on my stomach and open up my chest or have been moving around all day. No resp acidosis, no compensatory met alkalosis, no hives, no hypchloremia, no reduction in HCl.<br/>
<br/>
I can get my symptoms to completely stop by using greens + EVOO + ACV in the mornings for a few days. Greens provide a ton of chloride, marinate in small amount of ACV to ease digestion and provide H+, and EVOO to get gallbladder going (I have some structural impairment at T9/T10 vertebrae which, in the past, has caused me to develop small gallstones that I managed to get rid of with vinegar and turmeric). I have access to really really high quality greens from local greenhouses that grow year round (in my climate that is amazing). Beet greens, spinach, chard, other wild herbs, and some lettuces like butterleaf and romaine. Makes it very easy to get several grams in one meal. <br/>
<br/>
My past issues are not hormonal at all, they are driven entirely by structural problems. Clearly I focus energy on correcting the structural issues where the real problems lie, but using some minerals to help when things go bad goes a long way to aiding recovery. Chloride repletion is an essential part of this strategy and I don't get full recovery without it. The biggest part of the strategy will be a career change to something where I am on my feet more, but such is life for now.</t>

 

[Shadow]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>More you guys talk about alkalosis, more I think its my problem...<br/>
I have unexplained hives that come and go, and they started at the same time as my first signs of sexual dysfunction</t>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4464" time="1510942154" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
I think overall we are on the same page.<br/>
<br/>
I have confirmed minor functional scoliosis (probably due to sports) and used to have severe kyphosis as a teenager. I no long have chronic kyphosis, but I do have to sit in front of a laptop a lot for work, so I naturally go into kyphosis and mimic kyphoscoliosis and subsequent respiratory acidosis for periods of time. I can cause my hives if I eat a huge meal and sit for a while, and if I do this persistently over days symptoms get worse and worse each day. I can tell when things get bad because my costochondritis flares up when sitting too much (again caused by MSK issues, and I have exercises to treat this too), the pain impacts my breathing more severely, and then worse hives start up later on. If I do this consistently for too long, my digestion turns to shit over a few days and hives are at their worst. <br/>
<br/>
The hives will often be their worse after I get up and start actually moving around after a period of sitting/eating carbs. I am guessing at this point I can expel the CO2, and then I am left with compensatory metabolic alkalosis driving Ca2+/histamine exchange in mast cells. Like you said, alkalosis causes hives. I typically don't get hives if I lay on my stomach and open up my chest or have been moving around all day. No resp acidosis, no compensatory met alkalosis, no hives, no hypchloremia, no reduction in HCl.<br/>
<br/>
I can get my symptoms to completely stop by using greens + EVOO + ACV in the mornings for a few days. Greens provide a ton of chloride, marinate in small amount of ACV to ease digestion and provide H+, and EVOO to get gallbladder going (I have some structural impairment at T9/T10 vertebrae which, in the past, has caused me to develop small gallstones that I managed to get rid of with vinegar and turmeric). I have access to really really high quality greens from local greenhouses that grow year round (in my climate that is amazing). Beet greens, spinach, chard, other wild herbs, and some lettuces like butterleaf and romaine. Makes it very easy to get several grams in one meal. <br/>
<br/>
My past issues are not hormonal at all, they are driven entirely by structural problems. Clearly I focus energy on correcting the structural issues where the real problems lie, but using some minerals to help when things go bad goes a long way to aiding recovery. Chloride repletion is an essential part of this strategy and I don't get full recovery without it. The biggest part of the strategy will be a career change to something where I am on my feet more, but such is life for now.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I agree. I had scoliosis myself. We should be super human according to Peat LOL<br/>
<br/>
On top of this resp acidosis, most people get met alkalosis superimposed. I meet it more and more these days.<br/>
<br/>
I understand why you would get hives when you start moving all over a sudden, but you are saying you are getting hives just from sitting also. This should not happen in acidosis. <br/>
<br/>
Do you have your hair tested? or blood tests to look at?</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>I barely get hives while actually sitting around. They only really perk up once I start moving. Sometimes maybe if I move positions into something that opens up my chest (so I am still laying around, but without kyphosis), maybe the hives start then. It is hard to say, because I haven't really gotten any hives for the last 3 months so memory is pretty spotty of it.<br/>
<br/>
No hair test. Had lots of blood tests in the past, everything normal, only thing that was persistent was hypochloremia and slightly elevated ferritin until I figured out all of this. Both are normal now and seemed to coincide when hives and crap digestion went away.</t>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4474" time="1510946478" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
I barely get hives while actually sitting around. They only really perk up once I start moving. Sometimes maybe if I move positions into something that opens up my chest (so I am still laying around, but without kyphosis), maybe the hives start then. It is hard to say, because I haven't really gotten any hives for the last 3 months so memory is pretty spotty of it.<br/>
<br/>
No hair test. Had lots of blood tests in the past, everything normal, only thing that was persistent was hypochloremia and slightly elevated ferritin until I figured out all of this. Both are normal now and seemed to coincide when hives and crap digestion went away.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

So what did you do to lower your ferritin <br/>
<br/>
You started to move and eat greens? Do those greens have copper in them?</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<t>Ferritin lowered on it's own as far as I know. I always just interpreted it as a sign of persistent inflammation likely resulting from mast cell activation. I figured once I cleared up the underlying problem it would go down. It did.<br/>
<br/>
Overall copper intake was never that high. Usually around RDA levels, like most things. I would say spinach was the most predominant green I had, and it's pretty low in copper relative to other micronutrients. But copper concentrations are really dependent on soil conditions, and who knows, the greenhouse I buy from could be high/low/normal - I have no idea.<br/>
<br/>
Greens + exercise wasn't the only thing I did (I always had exercised after all, that never changed). I just noticed the biggest change after starting mornings off with greens/acv/evoo - easily had the biggest impact and continues to help if symptoms ever creep back. Everything helped a little bit. All in all I did (and still do) intermittent fasting, breathing exercises (repeated maximum exhalations), moved around more, dropped calcium intake down way lower, increased fat/carb ratio, supped a bit of zinc to bring it up just over RDA levels, a bit more cardio relative to weightlifting, and brought up cysteine/methionine intake.</t>

 

[Helen]

Re: Scenes RU Log

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="4479" time="1510949740" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
Ferritin lowered on it's own as far as I know. I always just interpreted it as a sign of persistent inflammation likely resulting from mast cell activation. I figured once I cleared up the underlying problem it would go down. It did.<br/>
<br/>
Overall copper intake was never that high. Usually around RDA levels, like most things. I would say spinach was the most predominant green I had, and it's pretty low in copper relative to other micronutrients. But copper concentrations are really dependent on soil conditions, and who knows, the greenhouse I buy from could be high/low/normal - I have no idea.<br/>
<br/>
Greens + exercise wasn't the only thing I did (I always had exercised after all, that never changed). I just noticed the biggest change after starting mornings off with greens/acv/evoo - easily had the biggest impact and continues to help if symptoms ever creep back. Everything helped a little bit. All in all I did (and still do) intermittent fasting, breathing exercises (repeated maximum exhalations), moved around more, dropped calcium intake down way lower, increased fat/carb ratio, supped a bit of zinc to bring it up just over RDA levels, a bit more cardio relative to weightlifting, and brought up cysteine/methionine intake.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

LOL total anti Peat. Good job. increase methylation, increase CA enzyme. lowered carbs, and breathing exercises. This is exactly what I suggested on RPF<br/>
<br/>
I think you increased your MAO A with spinach, this is what is happening. Spinach has a very high vitamin B2 ratio. This is why your ferritin lowered , since potassium raised in the cell and dragged iron with it to convert progesterone to cortisol. Serotonin fell down from b2 and copper, and this increased ventilation. Vitamin b2 deficiency is the reason for overimposed resp acidosis<br/>
<br/>
Chard is also very high in copper. So all this makes sense. Copper plus b2 plus iron and you back online<br/>
<br/>
this is dealt with succesfully by taking vitamin B2 and zinc at the same time.<br/>
<br/>
this is what I am taking post finasteride. magnesium potassium copper, b2, zinc, boron, and ace.<br/>
<br/>
the only thing I dont really like about greens in this body chemistry is vitamin K. at first it makes the blood thicker.<br/>
<br/>
I like spinach profile, I will add it to my stack.<br/>
I think I will rec spinach to PFS people. I like the profile. it matches for the food against PFS. But in your case. I think it was b2 plus iron copper and zinc. NOT really chloride. And I think you had overcompensated resp acidosis thus all these hives, since you had met alklalosis present also. Same exact thing as with PFS people<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Thanks Matty, I think spinach will be helpful. I think your problem probably from lead toxicity ( alluminum), Look into it. I'm pretty sure this is your problem from childhood, thus scoliosis. thus your glutathione pathway is activated. this puts pressure on molybdenum , methionine , cysteine. ( hairloss is from here) also causes alkalosis on top of chronic res acidosis from skeletal problems. I am very sure this is your original problem. lead displaces copper and iron , and causes those to build up in the brain. this is because you go down on b2 . Thus you will benefit from carnosine, and also zinc and manganese for a while, although it will make you anemic. But you should def try zinc manganese for 2 month to lower high copper and iron level in the brain even if you feel a little anemic from it.<br/>
<br/>
Then you need to use EDTA.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
I would assume if you used magnesium to prior all of this, you would feel bad, since cortisol would not allow calcium absorbtion to happen since alkalosis and magnesium would cause calcium to go in blood from the actual bone. And you have lead in there. this lead would go together with calcium in blood and cause sever disruption of iron and copper metabolism.<br/>
<br/>
I helped a few people with similar disorder, and their scoliosis went away after lead chelation( alluminum). Took about 2 years. EDTA and malic acid.</r>