Hypophosphatemia

[tanedout]

Anyone have any experience of this, or has anyone had their serum phosphate levels checked?!

This is a real issue for me - I have consistently low serum 'inorganic phosphate' levels, along with low serum potassium. [mention]gbolduev[/mention] mentioned this could be the result of respiratory alkalosis, and looking into this further it certainly would explain the low phosphate and the low potassium, but what to do about it seems less clear, some info suggesting changing diet to increase acidity, but then others saying diet has little impact.

My electrolytes are as follows;

- Inorganic phosphate - 0.7mmol/L [0.8 - 1.5] (has been a fair bit lower)
- Serum calcium - 2.40mmol/L [2.2 - 2.6]
- Serum sodium - 143mmol/L [133 - 146]
- Serum potassium - 3.8mmol/L [3.5 - 5.3]
- Serum urea - 4.6mmol/L [2.5 - 7.8]
- Serum creatine - 88umol/L [64 - 104]

I'm supplementing with potassium (3 x 99mg daily) which has stopped irregular heartbeats and heart palpitations, but still intermittently get muscle weakness and pains and feel anaemic and/or hypoglycemic. Eating seems to help and so does walking around to an extent.

The most common causes are alcoholism (never drink now!), and malnutrition (I do eat!). It can also be due to low vitamin D, but my levels are fine, and also poor absorption (however my digestion is pretty good as far as I know)

Hypophosphatemia is an electrolyte disturbance in which there is an abnormally low level of phosphate in the blood.[1] The condition has many causes, but is most commonly seen when malnourished patients (especially chronic alcoholics) are given large amounts of carbohydrates, which creates a high phosphorus demand by cells, removing phosphate from the blood

However as Gbol suggested a while back, this could be due to respiratory alkalosis

Respiratory alkalosis – Any alkalemic condition moves phosphate out of the blood into cells. This includes most common respiratory alkalemia (a higher than normal blood pH from low carbon dioxide levels in the blood), which in turn is caused by any hyperventilation (such as may result from sepsis, fever, pain, anxiety, drug withdrawal, and many other causes). This phenomenon is seen because in respiratory alkalosis carbon dioxide (CO2) decreases in the extracellular space, causing intracellular CO2 to freely diffuse out of the cell. This drop in intracellular CO2 causes a rise in cellular pH which has a stimulating effect on glycolysis. Since the process of glycolysis requires phosphate (the end product is adenosine triphosphate), the result is a massive uptake of phosphate into metabolically active tissue (such as muscle) from the serum. It is interesting to note, however, that this effect is not seen in metabolic alkalosis, for in such cases the cause of the alkalosis is increased bicarbonate rather than decreased CO2. Bicarbonate, unlike CO2, has poor diffusion across the cellular membrane and therefore there is little change in intracellular pH.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypophosphatemia

I'm going to try and get intracellular C02 tested, and blood pH.

Anyone have any experience of this, or able to suggest what steps might be worth looking at?

 

[Canari]

Respiratory alkalosis – Any alkalemic condition moves phosphate out of the blood into cells. This includes most common respiratory alkalemia (a higher than normal blood pH from low carbon dioxide levels in the blood), which in turn is caused by any hyperventilation (such as may result from sepsis, fever, pain, anxiety, drug withdrawal, and many other causes).

This seems a very good indication of Buteyko breathing!
Ever tried it?

 

[Canari]

I never got bloods for this... In hair test, my phosphate is at the exact minimum. I do have this type of muscle problems, from lactate, so has [mention]Nighteyes[/mention]
My hair potassium is also close to the minimum.

Anyone have any experience of this, or has anyone had their serum phosphate levels checked?! still intermittently get muscle weakness and pains and feel anaemic and/or hypoglycemic.
The most common causes are alcoholism (never drink now!),

I stopped when I was born! :mrgreen:
(lab vapors due to mom's work!)

However as Gbol suggested a while back, this could be due to respiratory alkalosis -...- Vs metabolic alkalosis, for in such cases the cause of the alkalosis is increased bicarbonate rather than decreased CO2. Bicarbonate, unlike CO2, has poor diffusion across the cellular membrane and therefore there is little change in intracellular pH.

I'm going to try and get intracellular C02 tested, and blood pH.

Is it the only way to know the difference between the 2 types of alkalosis?

 

[tanedout]

This seems a very good indication of Buteyko breathing!
Ever tried it?

No never heard of that, what is it exactly?

I've just been looking further into causes for alkalosis however, and though this was interesting with what Gbol has talking about recently with amino acids;

Possible Causes for Alkalosis:
• Diarrhea
• Fear and anxiety create an alkaline urine reaction
• High cholesterol
• Low hydrochloric acid (stomach acid)
• Not enough histamine

 

[Canari]

This seems a very good indication of Buteyko breathing!
Ever tried it?

No never heard of that, what is it exactly?

You were not enough on RPF! :lol:
I am going to get back a post from there.... I have a good exercise that is very relaxing at the same time, as it puts you in parasypàthetic state.

As they have talked here about the major importance of acting upon CO2, and this being the cheaper supp you will ever find... :mrgreen:
Buteyko style is hypoventilation breathing, the reverse of Wim Hof. It increases CO2 in blood. For me, it worked super good to block headaches. I use it on a specific moment and not as an everyday exercise.

Are you a fast oxidizer?

 

[tanedout]

This seems a very good indication of Buteyko breathing!
Ever tried it?

No never heard of that, what is it exactly?

You were not enough on RPF! :lol:
I am going to get back a post from there.... I have a good exercise that is very relaxing at the same time, as it puts you in parasypàthetic state.

As they have talked here about the major importance of acting upon CO2, and this being the cheaper supp you will ever find... :mrgreen:
Buteyko style is hypoventilation breathing, the reverse of Wim Hof. It increases CO2 in blood. For me, it worked super good to block headaches. I use it on a specific moment and not as an everyday exercise.

Are you a fast oxidizer?

Thanks I've never heard of that,but I know the wim hof method - I need to do some googling! If c02 in the blood being low is essentially what causes the issues then it makes sense to follow that method if it's effective at raising it.I'm going to try and levels measured though.

I'm a fast #4

 

[Nighteyes]

I never got bloods for this... In hair test, my phosphate is at the exact minimum. I do have this type of muscle problems, from lactate, so has @Nighteyes
My hair potassium is also close to the minimum.

Anyone have any experience of this, or has anyone had their serum phosphate levels checked?! still intermittently get muscle weakness and pains and feel anaemic and/or hypoglycemic.
The most common causes are alcoholism (never drink now!),

I stopped when I was born! :mrgreen:
(lab vapors due to mom's work!)

However as Gbol suggested a while back, this could be due to respiratory alkalosis -...- Vs metabolic alkalosis, for in such cases the cause of the alkalosis is increased bicarbonate rather than decreased CO2. Bicarbonate, unlike CO2, has poor diffusion across the cellular membrane and therefore there is little change in intracellular pH.

I'm going to try and get intracellular C02 tested, and blood pH.

Is it the only way to know the difference between the 2 types of alkalosis?

Since you mention mere here I just want to say that my feeling of lactic acid has come waaay down over the last week.. I have pretty much been following mattyb's advice with the greens/olive oil/vinegar and lots of protein in stead of carbs. I am also working out every day both cardio and lifting weights. Will be updating my log soon - I have made more progress over the last month or so here than two years on the ray peat forum.. crazy..

 

[Canari]

Since you mention mere here I just want to say that my feeling of lactic acid has come waaay down over the last week.. I have pretty much been following mattyb's advice with the greens/olive oil/vinegar and lots of protein in stead of carbs. I am also working out every day both cardio and lifting weights. Will be updating my log soon - I have made more progress over the last month or so here than two years on the ray peat forum.. crazy..

Also crazy is the common point between slow1s and fast4!!!
Do you also have low phosphate and potassium?

I eat the same as you say, and worked up to several hours lifing ...stones, with no pain. But with some exception last week-end, it was enough to give me huges pains! Now I am having grated veggies with raw scallops and ACV and OO... good dinner!

I have been on RPF yesterday to look for what I wrote about buteyko, but had no time yet for this, as there was another thread about gbol and was tagged and then read the 10 pages and answered to some crazy stuff, but Tub and Orion had been doing a good job too! Some people still do not understand that we speak of pH in a very narrow normal range, or that fasting is not starving nor contaminating ourselves with oxidized pufas!

 

[Nighteyes]

Since you mention mere here I just want to say that my feeling of lactic acid has come waaay down over the last week.. I have pretty much been following mattyb's advice with the greens/olive oil/vinegar and lots of protein in stead of carbs. I am also working out every day both cardio and lifting weights. Will be updating my log soon - I have made more progress over the last month or so here than two years on the ray peat forum.. crazy..

Also crazy is the common point between slow1s and fast4!!!
Do you also have low phosphate and potassium?

I eat the same as you say, and worked up to several hours lifing ...stones, with no pain. But with some exception last week-end, it was enough to give me huges pains! Now I am having grated veggies with raw scallops and ACV and OO... good dinner!

I have been on RPF yesterday to look for what I wrote about buteyko, but had no time yet for this, as there was another thread about gbol and was tagged and then read the 10 pages and answered to some crazy stuff, but Tub and Orion had been doing a good job too! Some people still do not understand that we speak of pH in a very narrow normal range, or that fasting is not starving nor contaminating ourselves with oxidized pufas!

Yeah, I noticed the discussion on ray peat forum.. Honestly I cannot be bothered engaging in that - way to busy enjoying other things again and incorporating ideas from here. I just really appreciate all the mattyb, gboluev and others contribute with here all the time. I dont feel I need to defend anything over there.. waste of time.

My hair test shows low potassium but normal/high P. But I still dont think I fully understand what high P on the hair test means.. low in blood? Anyway I am doing well on the slow diet and waiting longer between meals. Will post more in my log soon to not derail this thread too much

 

[Canari]

Just wanted to check if our lactic acid problem had to do with Tanedout having this: " but still intermittently get muscle weakness and pains"
It seems different....