Inhibiting 5ap at the molecular level and trying to describe what happens next

[highserotonin90]

@Resurection Are the serotonergic receptors you mentioned those involved in premature ejaculation?

I can't send you a private message; I get an error message.

 

[Resurection]

@Resurection Are the serotonergic receptors you mentioned those involved in premature ejaculation?

I can't send you a private message; I get an error message.

In my opinion, premature ejaculation is always a problem with norepinephrine. It's just that this can be disrupted and worsened through different pathways. 5ht2 receptors can release calcium, increase cortisol and glutamate, thereby also increasing norepinephrine. So, yes, if there is a problem with norepinephrine, this can worsen the situation, but not directly through serotonin. Stress also activates norepinephrine, as does the bladder, etc.

 

[ruprmurdoch]

This theory makes sense, but only in those cases where a person loses connection with their member (libido, orgasms, tissues, etc.) and in those cases where people get PFS after discontinuing the drug. As already mentioned, there are those who get PFS from 1 pill, a year after taking it, or while taking it, which doesn't make sense if we take this theory.

One year after one pill, it is hardly possible. It happens beacuse person have his body in state of near crash. Then even stupid bean can crash you.

 

[RebelWithACause]

Yea it's like those ppl with low NADPH which finasteride also affects. Then once system is down very hard to lift up again it seems. For some.
But I've seen so many cases of PFS through out the years. Some people barely have problems except minor lasting cognitive issues and others complete breakdown/crash. Both sucks yes but massive differences.

It's like two different species almost lol. Like that guy on Propeciahelp LazarusRy he crashed insanely hard and has severe issues I have seen his photos. Body completely f'd up. Then I see some guy who sends selfies and he looks almost the same on both. Minor differences. Except his eyes look like a psycho on the PFS one. Obviously some neurosteroid problem

Same for people back then when I was really sick I saw people having sex and having girlfriends LMAO I couldn't even get a girlfriend in that state I was a walking corpse. A lot of people feel like their problems are the worst but objectively if you had a GF in PFS and you kept her during, you were not that bad. Trust me you can get way worse. Even guys like Chi and some of the guys who recovered well without much intervention yes they were bad. But it can get way worse. WAY WORSE like x1000.

So obviously huge differences between people.

 

[RebelWithACause]

I think Helen's idea that some slow oxidizers don't need DHT for a while is also interesting because the first year on finasteride I barely had issues or at least the issues were overseeable and could deal with. Then second year I started to notice strong low DHT symptoms like my drive for sex became low. Motivation very low. Plus crazy anxiety started to come up.

Plus another interesting fact is that I quit finasteride already in the first year of usage for a few weeks and recovered fast. Androgens came back very smooth and quick. No problems like most people who quit finasteride.

So I think "1 pillers" might have low DHT to begin with. I think once you start to block DHT to very low for too long this is when the problems start, maybe. High estrogen might also lower steroid axis/metabolism over time. Like TubZy said here somewhere.

I felt lower metabolism on finasteride not higher. So the idea finasteride "speeds up metabolism" it could be due to a slow oxidizer being high in 3-adiol and this is their bottleneck of metabolism. But if that is not your bottleneck and DHT already lower then finasteride won't speed up metabolism. If you already have low DHT probably also low in 3-adiol and then with finasteride push it even lower. Who knows what happens then

 

[ruprmurdoch]

Yea it's like those ppl with low NADPH which finasteride also affects. Then once system is down very hard to lift up again it seems. For some.
But I've seen so many cases of PFS through out the years. Some people barely have problems except minor lasting cognitive issues and others complete breakdown/crash. Both sucks yes but massive differences.

It's like two different species almost lol. Like that guy on Propeciahelp LazarusRy he crashed insanely hard and has severe issues I have seen his photos. Body completely f'd up. Then I see some guy who sends selfies and he looks almost the same on both. Minor differences. Except his eyes look like a psycho on the PFS one. Obviously some neurosteroid problem

Same for people back then when I was really sick I saw people having sex and having girlfriends LMAO I couldn't even get a girlfriend in that state I was a walking corpse. A lot of people feel like their problems are the worst but objectively if you had a GF in PFS and you kept her during, you were not that bad. Trust me you can get way worse. Even guys like Chi and some of the guys who recovered well without much intervention yes they were bad. But it can get way worse. WAY WORSE like x1000.

So obviously huge differences between people.

could you describe LazarusRy body issues ?

 

[RebelWithACause]

could you describe LazarusRy body issues ?

Massive bone loss, muscle loss, etc. He looked really bad. Probably one of the worst I have seen. Most people I felt like were making things sound worse than they were because I often saw their pictures and yea they looked worse but far from bad. Just looked weaker often or they got fat.

 

[Resurection]

One year after one pill, it is hardly possible. It happens beacuse person have his body in state of near crash. Then even stupid bean can crash you.

Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. A person takes a drug, stops it, and then a year later, for example, does something with a 5AR inhibitor and gets PFS.

That is why I am saying the issue is not with the receptors they only need about 24 hours to change their regulation.

Tubzy wrote that he took finasteride multiple times. The first time he recovered easily, but after taking it again he crashed. I had a similar experience I took it earlier two years before that one pill and stopped without any problems and only years later did I crash from a single pill. There are others who crashed after taking it three times.

Then there is the user Helen. I have not read everything he wrote, so I might be missing some information, but I saw his post where he got PFS from a few finasteride pills. This is quite strange, considering he previously wrote that he had no health issues and was balanced. Either he actually had underlying problems, or the issue here is not with metabolism. Although, judging by his earlier comments, he had taken finasteride before and had PFS or something similar, which hints that this "something" remained from that previous time.

A guy with the username "Cytochrome" on another forum, he recovered using dexamethasone, then took finasteride again because he started balding once more and got PFS again. I do not remember how long he took finasteride after recovery, but I think he crashed almost immediately.

Overall, this seems more like something is accumulating, getting stuck, or shutting down.

 

[highserotonin90]

@Resurection Can you try starting a chat with me and see if I can respond?

 

[highserotonin90]

@Resurection Unfortunately, I keep getting an error when I try to reply to you.

 

[RebelWithACause]

Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. A person takes a drug, stops it, and then a year later, for example, does something with a 5AR inhibitor and gets PFS.

That is why I am saying the issue is not with the receptors they only need about 24 hours to change their regulation.

Tubzy wrote that he took finasteride multiple times. The first time he recovered easily, but after taking it again he crashed. I had a similar experience I took it earlier two years before that one pill and stopped without any problems and only years later did I crash from a single pill. There are others who crashed after taking it three times.

Then there is the user Helen. I have not read everything he wrote, so I might be missing some information, but I saw his post where he got PFS from a few finasteride pills. This is quite strange, considering he previously wrote that he had no health issues and was balanced. Either he actually had underlying problems, or the issue here is not with metabolism. Although, judging by his earlier comments, he had taken finasteride before and had PFS or something similar, which hints that this "something" remained from that previous time.

A guy with the username "Cytochrome" on another forum, he recovered using dexamethasone, then took finasteride again because he started balding once more and got PFS again. I do not remember how long he took finasteride after recovery, but I think he crashed almost immediately.

Overall, this seems more like something is accumulating, getting stuck, or shutting down.

Well Helen said he was healthy but still had issues with lead and I think he was also in process of chelating lead when he took finasteride. That combo - pressure on glutathione + finasteride can cause a crash. Doesn't mean you are crashed for months/years like some guys. But it showed that this crash is what a lot of people have. But those who stay stuck body is unable to lift metabolism probably and metabolise the drug out of the system

 

[Resurection]

Well Helen said he was healthy but still had issues with lead and I think he was also in process of chelating lead when he took finasteride. That combo - pressure on glutathione + finasteride can cause a crash. Doesn't mean you are crashed for months/years like some guys. But it showed that this crash is what a lot of people have. But those who stay stuck body is unable to lift metabolism probably and metabolise the drug out of the system

It is quite possible, I honestly don't know its entire history, I only sometimes come across his messages and theories, but thank you for letting me know.

Yes, I think that's what happens, there is an initial problem with ATP and the antioxidant system before we take finasteride.

I think metabolism is a consequence of ATP deficiency, which is why people get CFS, and why they can't raise it since there is no energy. The same thing happens in long covid under inflammatory load.

Recently I was killing bacteria in the small intestine as an experiment and that essentially fixed PFS. I did this with low doses of weakly diluted chlorhexidine in water and added oregano to make it more effective. Other things that kill biofilms didn't suit me for various reasons, killing biofilms is the most important thing here. Oregano by itself doesn't work, in case anyone has questions. By the way, chlorhexidine is not recommended for oral intake, this was my own decision.

Anyway, this raised metabolism, hormones, energy, started up digestion, increased temperature, etc. Also, all problems with neurotransmission (GABA/glutamate) went away, sleep improved, libido improved (mine was working, but it started to feel different).

I don't think this is the solution, in my case I need to look at what's going on with bile, since SIBO is not an independent problem. I will look at different options to see if I can fix PFS through this path. Many have tried, but it's not enough to just kill the bacteria, you probably need to simultaneously raise folate, butyrate, to restore the mucosa and methylation, avoid iron, sugar, dairy products, reduce carbohydrates, etc. A whole protocol with lifestyle changes is shaping up here.

Overall, whatever the case, this is an interesting experience and confirms what we are discussing here.

Regarding finasteride getting stuck (the drug itself), there is no understanding of how it creates so many problems, being 5 times weaker as a metabolite than finasteride itself. If anyone understands, I'd be happy to hear it)

 

[Resurection]

@Resurection Unfortunately, I keep getting an error when I try to reply to you.

Strange, I wrote to you without any problems. Did you have any question? Maybe you should ask it here?

 

[RebelWithACause]

It is quite possible, I honestly don't know its entire history, I only sometimes come across his messages and theories, but thank you for letting me know.

Yes, I think that's what happens, there is an initial problem with ATP and the antioxidant system before we take finasteride.

I think metabolism is a consequence of ATP deficiency, which is why people get CFS, and why they can't raise it since there is no energy. The same thing happens in long covid under inflammatory load.

Recently I was killing bacteria in the small intestine as an experiment and that essentially fixed PFS. I did this with low doses of weakly diluted chlorhexidine in water and added oregano to make it more effective. Other things that kill biofilms didn't suit me for various reasons, killing biofilms is the most important thing here. Oregano by itself doesn't work, in case anyone has questions. By the way, chlorhexidine is not recommended for oral intake, this was my own decision.

Anyway, this raised metabolism, hormones, energy, started up digestion, increased temperature, etc. Also, all problems with neurotransmission (GABA/glutamate) went away, sleep improved, libido improved (mine was working, but it started to feel different).

I don't think this is the solution, in my case I need to look at what's going on with bile, since SIBO is not an independent problem. I will look at different options to see if I can fix PFS through this path. Many have tried, but it's not enough to just kill the bacteria, you probably need to simultaneously raise folate, butyrate, to restore the mucosa and methylation, avoid iron, sugar, dairy products, reduce carbohydrates, etc. A whole protocol with lifestyle changes is shaping up here.

Overall, whatever the case, this is an interesting experience and confirms what we are discussing here.

Regarding finasteride getting stuck (the drug itself), there is no understanding of how it creates so many problems, being 5 times weaker as a metabolite than finasteride itself. If anyone understands, I'd be happy to hear it)

n=1 but for first 3 years I think into PFS I still felt like I had finasteride or at least some of it's effects in my body. Once I felt like it "detoxed" out of me I also noticed other problems start to arise again. Like hairloss for example. Oily skin. Immune system came back fully (I got sick more often). Etc. I felt like my metabolism also dropped eventhough ironically I think finasteride lowers it too. I got more depressed too vs. anxious. In PFS it was primarily insane anxiety. I think this PFS state kept my potassium from dropping fast. Once fin was metabolized out much more pressure from DHT on potassium again. Just thinking out loud here - nothing scientific.

I also noticed with my personality coming back I also started to behave more in my old patterns incl. traumas. This is now a problem for me more so. I still have PTSD problems. But zero PFS problems. Ironically on finasteride and in PFS I felt less affected by old trauma and my bad personality patterns.

It's like I buried the PFS crap and then came on my original problems back again lol.

There was a clear switch. So for me it took 3 years I think and this was after doing a lot incl. hair tests. Experiments. Etc.

 

[Resurection]

n=1 but for first 3 years I think into PFS I still felt like I had finasteride or at least some of it's effects in my body. Once I felt like it "detoxed" out of me I also noticed other problems start to arise again. Like hairloss for example. Oily skin. Immune system came back fully (I got sick more often). Etc. I felt like my metabolism also dropped eventhough ironically I think finasteride lowers it too. I got more depressed too vs. anxious. In PFS it was primarily insane anxiety. I think this PFS state kept my potassium from dropping fast. Once fin was metabolized out much more pressure from DHT on potassium again. Just thinking out loud here - nothing scientific.

I also noticed with my personality coming back I also started to behave more in my old patterns incl. traumas. This is now a problem for me more so. I still have PTSD problems. But zero PFS problems. Ironically on finasteride and in PFS I felt less affected by old trauma and my bad personality patterns.

It's like I buried the PFS crap and then came on my original problems back again lol.

There was a clear switch. So for me it took 3 years I think and this was after doing a lot incl. hair tests. Experiments. Etc.

I already asked, but I will repeat the question. Did you cure your PFS with dexamethasone or was it some combination of things?

As I understand, you also had IBD. Did it go away along with the PFS or did it stay with you?

Regarding immunity, people's syndromes go away when they get sick. At the moment of (for example) a cold, all symptoms disappear, and after the cold passes, everything returns. I think this hints at the cortisol axis or its receptor.

I experienced this effect when I experimented with zinc finger. Oily skin, itching, hair loss, everything temporarily came back.

 

[RebelWithACause]

I already asked, but I will repeat the question. Did you cure your PFS with dexamethasone or was it some combination of things?

As I understand, you also had IBD. Did it go away along with the PFS or did it stay with you?

Regarding immunity, people's syndromes go away when they get sick. At the moment of (for example) a cold, all symptoms disappear, and after the cold passes, everything returns. I think this hints at the cortisol axis or its receptor.

I experienced this effect when I experimented with zinc finger. Oily skin, itching, hair loss, everything temporarily came back.

I did these things:

TEI (1,5 years)
Fasting (waterfast 11 days, dry fast 5 days three times) - I could not do more after 10 days felt like I had some block like nothing happened, no positive, nothing maybe some type of methylation block
Proviron high dosage (Not sure what dosage anymore, you can find it somewhere) (I think for 2 months daily)
Random stuff like creatine cycling (high doses), some herbs, R-Andro sometimes
My own supplement stacks like B Complex, high dosage B vitamins, potassium, magnesium, etc.

I would say after Proviron I started to feel normal like before I took finasteride and the stack I did after was just to increase my health from the non-PFS problems. So maybe I did have overexpression of AR or opposite. I do feel like the creatine cycling helped too eventhough it's so simple. Especially in combo with weight training. In beginning felt worse from it later on better and better.

I followed a lot of advice from Helen and also what people said here and some tips by cdsnuts.

Maybe I forgot something but I think this was it pretty much. I think Proviron is viable for some. But doesn't seem to work for everyone. And if your health before PFS was kind of crap you'll go back to that state. I had IBD in PFS yes. First year especially very bad digestion. It would come out the same way it came in. But I don't have IBD naturally like before finasteride maybe bloating but nothing close to IBD.

 

[Resurection]

I did these things:

TEI (1,5 years)
Fasting (waterfast 11 days, dry fast 5 days three times) - I could not do more after 10 days felt like I had some block like nothing happened, no positive, nothing maybe some type of methylation block
Proviron high dosage (Not sure what dosage anymore, you can find it somewhere) (I think for 2 months daily)
Random stuff like creatine cycling (high doses), some herbs, R-Andro sometimes
My own supplement stacks like B Complex, high dosage B vitamins, potassium, magnesium, etc.

I would say after Proviron I started to feel normal like before I took finasteride and the stack I did after was just to increase my health from the non-PFS problems. So maybe I did have overexpression of AR or opposite. I do feel like the creatine cycling helped too eventhough it's so simple. Especially in combo with weight training. In beginning felt worse from it later on better and better.

I followed a lot of advice from Helen and also what people said here and some tips by cdsnuts.

Maybe I forgot something but I think this was it pretty much. I think Proviron is viable for some. But doesn't seem to work for everyone. And if your health before PFS was kind of crap you'll go back to that state. I had IBD in PFS yes. First year especially very bad digestion. It would come out the same way it came in. But I don't have IBD naturally like before finasteride maybe bloating but nothing close to IBD.

Thank you for the answer. You did quite a lot of things, for some reason I always thought that in your case it was dexamethasone. It turns out that IBD was a consequence of PFS.

IBD is hydrogen peroxide, the body cannot remove it, apparently there is no peroxidase/catalase. That is, there is no glutathione/selenium (glutathione reductase) and no NADPH, since peroxidase needs reduced glutathione. I think your case confirms that PFS disrupts these pathways.