Let's drop the idea of oxidizers

[mattyb]

Seriously guys, I feel like this is a stupid dichotomy to create. I keep hearing people reading about slow/fast oxidizers, getting confused, and relying on crap sources like Dr. Wilson (who is cleary kind of crazy, and not in a good way).

Let's just stick to focusing on things like oxphos, glycolosis, beta-oxidation, mineral retention and ratios, endocrine system, pH, etc. It's dangerous to create some dichotomy based on a cluster of vague symptoms and then adjust behaviours accordingly.

What's more useful is real testing, attention to medical history, and then actually THINKING about what those test results and history mean and how to restore balance without relying on over-simplified categories/dichotomies. Dumbing things down is dangerous - it just invites stupidity, misinterpretation, and dogmatic thinking. Let's raise the bar and focus on real details and the uniqueness of situations. The real world requires flexibility and understanding, not systemization.

 

[tfcjesse]

After familiarizing myself with some of the topics you've mentioned, I have to agree. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and experience on the subjects, and providing support for the members here.

 

[Canari]

If it makes people generalize more than we should, I agree too. As I am conscious about the use of generalization, I was not bothered at all by the concept, but there is already a topic about pros and cons and it can lead people to be sorry to be a slow, and want to be a fast!

The problem is that we do not have the sub-categories, that is why we stayed with only 2 until now. And even if we knew about 12, I would still be conscious that it is possible to be more and more precise.

When I worked with children, my main goal was to increase the perception that even if we are "all the same", we are at the same time "all different". It is useful to go out of discrimination without entering positive discrimination! But this concept is fundamental for everything. Here it is obvious.

 

[TubZy]

I'm going to remove the sub threads here for slow and fast oxidisers. If you think I should remove the entire oxidation section as a whole, I'm open to it, let me know what you think.

 

[Canari]

Can there be a word more meaningful than oxidizer?

If I think about the idea of what we discuss, I would say that it is about personalization of our diet and life style.

 

[Canari]

I'm going to remove the sub threads here for slow and fast oxidisers. If you think I should remove the entire oxidation section as a whole, I'm open to it, let me know what you think.

Hope you mean the sub-forums! Not my hard work compilations! Until now we have this (ok, very partial) understanding from Gbolduev. I would mainly like to have more understanding of what mean the 2 sides of the metabolism, and increase the consciousness that it is arbitrary but comfortable as a code for communicating.

 

[Canari]

Some people see "Ze tree" and claim their tree is the one.
Some see that the same tree separate into 2 branches....
Some see under the leaves, that there are many more smaller branches....
Some can even notice a different leaf in the tree, because a climbing plant volunteered!
It also has parasites and fungi and virus and bacterias... and welcome bird nests.

And where you just see "trees" some people know what tree it is, even in winter and at a distance...

 

[TubZy]

I'm going to remove the sub threads here for slow and fast oxidisers. If you think I should remove the entire oxidation section as a whole, I'm open to it, let me know what you think.

Hope you mean the sub-forums! Not my hard work compilations! Until now we have this (ok, very partial) understanding from Gbolduev. I would mainly like to have more understanding of what mean the 2 sides of the metabolism, and increase the consciousness that it is arbitrary but comfortable as a code for communicating.

Yes, sub forums lol..

 

[Ivy]

Seriously guys, I feel like this is a stupid dichotomy to create. I keep hearing people reading about slow/fast oxidizers, getting confused, and relying on crap sources like Dr. Wilson (who is cleary kind of crazy, and not in a good way).

Let's just stick to focusing on things like oxphos, glycolosis, beta-oxidation, mineral retention and ratios, endocrine system, pH, etc. It's dangerous to create some dichotomy based on a cluster of vague symptoms and then adjust behaviours accordingly.

What's more useful is real testing, attention to medical history, and then actually THINKING about what those test results and history mean and how to restore balance without relying on over-simplified categories/dichotomies. Dumbing things down is dangerous - it just invites stupidity, misinterpretation, and dogmatic thinking. Let's raise the bar and focus on real details and the uniqueness of situations. The real world requires flexibility and understanding, not systemization.

What testing seems relevant from your point of view? Can we get it outside the medical establishment/without prescription? I've tried again and again to have doctors look at my general picture, but they either know too little or are too specialized. In both settings, I can easily be dismissed as a healthy individual with hyperawareness of her body. I also have the feeling that some vital metabolic information is only looked at in case of emergency. Any tips you can offer are very welcome.

 

[Andman]

gbolduev posted his preferred lab tests over in the peat forum some time ago, ill have to see if i still have them somewhere.
From the top of my head it was hair mineral analysis, breath gas analysis in hospital, urinary neurotransmitters, and a few blood labs like ceruoplasmin etc.

 

[Canari]

gbolduev posted his preferred lab tests over in the peat forum some time ago, ill have to see if i still have them somewhere.
From the top of my head it was hair mineral analysis, breath gas analysis in hospital, urinary neurotransmitters, and a few blood labs like ceruoplasmin etc.

Make a new topic if you find all this precisely, or part of it, and others will add what they know about.

I propose a big section instead of oxidizers:

• Balancing in context

It includes the use of the typing according to Eck, but also any other way to take personal cases into account, according to all type of analysis.

 

[Orion]

I think we do need to keep some of the discussion about basic ideas/approaches, lots of members won't have access to certain labs, pH, gases or hair tests. Or have studied them like [mention]mattyb[/mention] or gbolduev.

This was gbolduev's recommendation for a good picture:

Hair test: sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, chloride, phosphorus, zinc, copper.
Blood sample: TSH, free t3, free t4, iron ferritin, ceruloplasmin, insulin, glucose, progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, cortisol.

It would be good if [mention]gbolduev[/mention] was to post his diet/supps recommendations for certain lab profiles, he was planning that for RPF before the ban hammer went off. [mention]TubZy[/mention] could you re-suggest this?

 

[mattyb]

What testing seems relevant from your point of view? Can we get it outside the medical establishment/without prescription? I've tried again and again to have doctors look at my general picture, but they either know too little or are too specialized. In both settings, I can easily be dismissed as a healthy individual with hyperawareness of her body. I also have the feeling that some vital metabolic information is only looked at in case of emergency. Any tips you can offer are very welcome.

Most important thing is an honest and thorough history. Back when I was sick I wrote out on several pieces of paper the entire timeline of my symptoms, medical treatments, dietary/exercise habits at each time, etc. Things didn't really start making sense until I had lots of time to think and look over my history again and again.

The tests that are important will be specific to what you think might be going on based on your history and understanding of physiology. In very general terms, I think arterial blood gas, electrolytes/minerals, creatinine/urea, hs-CRP, full thyroid panel, and full iron panel are good basics to start with. Catecholamines/cortisol can be useful as well, but there is huge variance in a single sample of those tests - very easy for it to be low or high depending on acute state. It can lead to easy misinterpretations. 24-hour cortisol is more useful if you suspect HPA dysregulation, but it's more of a pain in the ass. Most of these tests unfortunately need to be requested by a physician, depending on where you live. Maybe hair mineral tests can be useful, but I'm not really knowledgeable on them. If it truly does give an accurate picture of what's happening intracellularly, than they would be an amazing asset to have. What we care about is what's happening on the inside of cells, and information from blood only gives us a rough idea.

I agree that doctors can suck, often too closed minded, too specialized, or not very knowledgeable. Out of all the doctors I saw only one was really helpful. The others were only helpful in ruling out more serious issues (I had chest pain, so we had to rule out heart problems, aortic aneurysm, etc. - luckily everything was good). Finding one who is actually empathetic and curious is like finding a diamond in the rough. Be cautious about accepting medications, tell them you are more interested in practical lifestyle changes and many doctors will respect that (seriously, so many of their patients aren't willing to put in the work, so many are relieved to hear that a patient actually wants to change their lifestyle).

If you are really stuck, my advice is to first acquire an exceptional history of your issues, and then study physiology relentlessly - and not just things related to your own problems. Pick up a textbook and get learning. If you live in the city, visit the university biomedical libraries and pick out textbooks on interesting subjects. Don't be afraid to read things above your level, just be cautious with the information you get until you really understand what they're talking about.

 

[mattyb]

I'm going to remove the sub threads here for slow and fast oxidisers. If you think I should remove the entire oxidation section as a whole, I'm open to it, let me know what you think.

I don't know - maybe make the section about Metabolism and Physiology or something like that?

 

[TubZy]

I'm going to remove the sub threads here for slow and fast oxidisers. If you think I should remove the entire oxidation section as a whole, I'm open to it, let me know what you think.

I don't know - maybe make the section about Metabolism and Physiology or something like that?

Done....I also removed the sub forum for fast/slow oxidizers.

 

[Canari]

I have posted a new link in the topic of slow ox, and I think we should keep the concept, without reducing everything to it!

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="3072" time="1509400484" user_id="114"><s>

</s>
<br/>
What do you think about the statement that fasting is not good for fast oxidizer because they will crash? <br/>
Cant really tell what my type is. With medication and in remission I think Im slow. But while flaring I'm fast.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I don't really care about types. You'll know if fasting is good for you once you try it. I feel great just not eating for half the day, and if I'm relaxing I can easily go an entire day without feeling a dip in energy levels. It's easy to know if my body needs it based off of how I tolerate it.<br/>
<br/>
People speak of types as if it's set in stone. It isn't. I can stimulate my metabolism so it behaves like my girlfriend's by simply not eating and drinking some coffee while exercising (so I can go from a "slow" to a "fast" in the span of 20 hours). I hate this slow and fast dichotomy. I read through ARL's description of slow and fast and I fit about 50% of each category. I think it's a stupid dichotomy and should be largely ignored.<br/>
<br/>
Metabolism is transient and always changing. Trying to pin it down with one broad categorization will only do you a disservice. I think we are better off defining ourselves by our symptoms, our behaviours, our environment, and any lab results all within context of each other.</r>

 

[Aleksandr]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="3090" time="1509413126" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="3072" time="1509400484" user_id="114"><s>

</s>
<br/>
What do you think about the statement that fasting is not good for fast oxidizer because they will crash? <br/>
Cant really tell what my type is. With medication and in remission I think Im slow. But while flaring I'm fast.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I don't really care about types. You'll know if fasting is good for you once you try it. I feel great just not eating for half the day, and if I'm relaxing I can easily go an entire day without feeling a dip in energy levels. It's easy to know if my body needs it based off of how I tolerate it.<br/>
<br/>
People speak of types as if it's set in stone. It isn't. I can stimulate my metabolism so it behaves like my girlfriend's by simply not eating and drinking some coffee while exercising (so I can go from a "slow" to a "fast" in the span of 20 hours). I hate this slow and fast dichotomy. I read through ARL's description of slow and fast and I fit about 50% of each category. I think it's a stupid dichotomy and should be largely ignored.<br/>
<br/>
Metabolism is transient and always changing. Trying to pin it down with one broad categorization will only do you a disservice. I think we are better off defining ourselves by our symptoms, our behaviours, our environment, and any lab results all within context of each other.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>
I just had this same experience; when i was sick with the flu i felt like i was in 'fast oxidation'; eating like a maniac 24/7 while running hot all the time. Finally got over it, felt a bit 'addicted' to carbs again so yesterday i intermittent fasted from 7pm till 12pm the next day - it was difficult(ish) but i got there. Today was no problems waiting till 12pm. Digestion feels better, energy feels better. Woo. I'm also probably snapping back from the licorice root now.<br/>
<br/>
But yeah, it didn't feel right intermittent fasting when i had the flu. I seemed to get worse.</r>

 

[Canari]

I don't really care about types. You'll know if fasting is good for you once you try it. I feel great just not eating for half the day, and if I'm relaxing I can easily go an entire day without feeling a dip in energy levels. It's easy to know if my body needs it based off of how I tolerate it.

People speak of types as if it's set in stone. It isn't. I can stimulate my metabolism so it behaves like my girlfriend's by simply not eating and drinking some coffee while exercising (so I can go from a "slow" to a "fast" in the span of 20 hours). I hate this slow and fast dichotomy. I read through ARL's description of slow and fast and I fit about 50% of each category. I think it's a stupid dichotomy and should be largely ignored.

Metabolism is transient and always changing. Trying to pin it down with one broad categorization will only do you a disservice. I think we are better off defining ourselves by our symptoms, our behaviours, our environment, and any lab results all within context of each other.

Matty, I agree it is stupid to think sth is set in stone, or only a dichotomy. Nevertheless, I think we should see more branches than the 2 big ones, and not prune the tree!

As you say, you can stimulate your metabolism, to be like your girlfriend who does not need this stimulation. Fast or slow may also be bad names, as they are analogies with the common meaning.

As [mention]m_arch[/mention] says, you can feel slow when you are ill, and it is momentaneous but this is not for me the meaning of slow and fast.

I also fit in a certain % of slow and fast definitions/symptoms, but I know to what it is related in my nervous system, as there are cases, [mention]gbolduev[/mention] confirmed it when I asked. You can have S and SP on at the same time.

More over, when you know yourself, you can do the necessary to balance yourself, and we have to admit that those tips do not have the same result for everybody, or are useless for some. Everything in life moves like waves, even electricity ondulates, and everything moves in a pendulating way. If you go too much on one side, you have the pendulum going stronger in the opposite direction, and that is what gbolduev uses in contrarian endocrinology too.

We cannot drop the idea of oxidizers, we can refine it so that people do not feel stuck in one camp or another and gain flexibility.

 

[Canari]

...so that people do not feel stuck in one camp or another and gain flexibility. We indeed have metabolisms with a certain tendency. Then by knowing it, we can refine our actual tool to deal with it. Then our pendulum can be regulated without going into uncontrollable extremes. Remember too that gbolduev said the typing system was linked to the ANS. The problem is that you all seem to relate sympathetic system to adrenaline. But nerves exist on their own and they are even the hardest threads to cut in a body!