supernature
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New log, experimenting - Nina
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Eh, I’m sure if you could adjust over time to a non-Keto diet with plenty of veggies. I think you want to get out of that “fasted state.” A lot of people high in health are firmly against a long term ketogenic.
Sure 30-90 days why not, can’t do any harm. But living on that, as you do, I can see why there could be issues long term.
mattyb
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Keto helps her because it kills b-cell production just like fasting would, just not as strongly. It's the same reason she felt great later into the fast. Without b-cells, EBV has nowhere to live and replicate. The adaptive immune system, particularly it's replication and growth, runs primarily on aerobic glycolysis.
Seriously, there's a reason late exposure EBV is a major suspect in CFS literature. The vast majority of CFS begins after mono, it's not a coincidence. If she follows the protocol I laid out I would give Nina a good chance of recovering over a few months. But it would take at least three weeks before you'd notice any changes. Takes a while to clear EBV down to lower levels, ideal mono recoveries take one month in perfectly young healthy people.
Seriously, there's a reason late exposure EBV is a major suspect in CFS literature. The vast majority of CFS begins after mono, it's not a coincidence. If she follows the protocol I laid out I would give Nina a good chance of recovering over a few months. But it would take at least three weeks before you'd notice any changes. Takes a while to clear EBV down to lower levels, ideal mono recoveries take one month in perfectly young healthy people.
Nina
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Yeah
I already tried eating carbs for months, still sluggish and tired so no it didnt work.
mattyb
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http://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/21/5/707.full.pdf
Just look at this study. 36 months on open-valacyclovir resulted in full recovery in EBV positive CFS patients. If you did valacyclovir + suggested supps from before, I bet recovery would happen much faster than in this study (started seeing partial recovery after 6 months, with full being achieved at 36 months). You are EBV positive every time you have been tested, right? This is how you should be treated knowing that.
Some people simply do not produce the right type of MHC class II protein that's necessary for the body to recognize and kill EBV in B-cells, so it stays in it's active replication stage forever. It's a genetic mutation in the HLA region. Maybe with perfect supps and behavior you could fight it on your own - maybe. Supps/behavior + valacyclovir is the most likely route for a fast full recovery.
Women have a weaker CD8+ T cell response (which kills EBV) than men, and they are likely to have a more suppressed CD8+ T cell response when stressed, whereas men have an exaggerated CD8+ T cell response when stressed. That's why so many of these EBV-based "autoimmune" (ie. unexplained) diseases disproportionately affect women - CFS, MS, Rheumatoid Arthritis, thyroid disorders, etc. This is why rituximab (and fasting) works in all these conditions - it depletes the body of B-cells, stopping the EBV replication entirely. Mechanism of action for rituximab in these disorders is still not well-understood, and that's just because most people aren't aware of the role EBV plays in these disorders. But it is becoming much more popular nowadays as more people study the connection between inflammatory conditions and infectious diseases. Clinical trials in this area have exploded after the last decade, with most being successful - the biggest hurdle is funding though, since current treatments for EBV have expired licenses. Most haven't been able to get funding to get past Phase II studies.
How these diseases work is simple, but medical societies have had the underlying theory wrong forever. Soon we will have anti-EBV autologous t-cell treatment for these people, and then many of these EBV driven diseases will go away. Once we adapt autologous t-cell treatment to other pathogens, I think we will see the disappearance of most autoimmune disorders.
Just look at this study. 36 months on open-valacyclovir resulted in full recovery in EBV positive CFS patients. If you did valacyclovir + suggested supps from before, I bet recovery would happen much faster than in this study (started seeing partial recovery after 6 months, with full being achieved at 36 months). You are EBV positive every time you have been tested, right? This is how you should be treated knowing that.
Some people simply do not produce the right type of MHC class II protein that's necessary for the body to recognize and kill EBV in B-cells, so it stays in it's active replication stage forever. It's a genetic mutation in the HLA region. Maybe with perfect supps and behavior you could fight it on your own - maybe. Supps/behavior + valacyclovir is the most likely route for a fast full recovery.
Women have a weaker CD8+ T cell response (which kills EBV) than men, and they are likely to have a more suppressed CD8+ T cell response when stressed, whereas men have an exaggerated CD8+ T cell response when stressed. That's why so many of these EBV-based "autoimmune" (ie. unexplained) diseases disproportionately affect women - CFS, MS, Rheumatoid Arthritis, thyroid disorders, etc. This is why rituximab (and fasting) works in all these conditions - it depletes the body of B-cells, stopping the EBV replication entirely. Mechanism of action for rituximab in these disorders is still not well-understood, and that's just because most people aren't aware of the role EBV plays in these disorders. But it is becoming much more popular nowadays as more people study the connection between inflammatory conditions and infectious diseases. Clinical trials in this area have exploded after the last decade, with most being successful - the biggest hurdle is funding though, since current treatments for EBV have expired licenses. Most haven't been able to get funding to get past Phase II studies.
How these diseases work is simple, but medical societies have had the underlying theory wrong forever. Soon we will have anti-EBV autologous t-cell treatment for these people, and then many of these EBV driven diseases will go away. Once we adapt autologous t-cell treatment to other pathogens, I think we will see the disappearance of most autoimmune disorders.
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Matty , we used Valtrex and all other antivirals for ever. I think some people did better on them for a while.
Read phoenix rising . People take them constantly for 2-3 years , then go off and relapse immediately. I think virus is a state. When take the drug it basically protects the little glutathione you have . But the levels are so low that the minute another stress comes in , like stress or anothe job or even cigarette smoke.people relapse even on being on antiviral for years.. immediately even being on it for years. All those people with CFS< they dont even come off of these antivirals anymore. They just live on them now. and still relapse even on them. when the stressors come in.
So I think it is important to build up the immune system and the glutathione system also and if those people relapse even being on antiviral for years, after having most of the symptoms go away on the antiviral. This questions the role of the virus in this. the virus isnt primary it seems, although it does help to control it, so it takes off the pressure off the glutathione system. But the whole glutathione and oxidation system collapse does not even go up after being on antiviral
|By the way , I know several women with shingles infection. They had really low iron, when they raised iron levels, outbreaks and shingles went away.
Nitric oxide synthase is an iron based enzyme, Viruses are scared shitless of NO and NO is only made when you can produce NO, when there is enough iron , when there is enough antioxidation to produce NO. when there is enough glutathione. bh4 etc
Sometimes when people have both bacterial and viral infection they get cancer. Since iron is taken away from circulation as in anemia of chronic disease ferritin goes up. and then viruses grow , since there is no nitric oxide.
when I had crazy viral outbreaks of herpes, I would take iron dilute it in water and put it on my lips. This stuff worked better than any antivirals 5 times. And killed the blisters within 1 hour. Mumijo also works like this.
I had this situation and I had chronic fatigue, When I fed myself bound iron I felt so much better. My NO rose and I felt zero viral implications, but my bacterias and tumors grew.
I think cancer is the mixture of these 2. and this is fork. But actually virus is helping to control the tumors. They even use herpes injections for melanoma.
I think herpes helped my melanoma greatly , if not for herpes it would grow like crazy.
SO you see it is not as easy as just kill the virus for some people. People sit on Valtrex for years , Iknow some are 5 years . Yes they are stronger than before,and less relapses, but may be twice as less relapses and when they relapse it is almost the same thing.
So it seems viral load just takes a bit of pressure of the glutathione system. And until people restore it, they will not be able to go off valtrex , and will experience relapses even on antivirals.
This is why if people measure the viral load, and then get glutathione IV and measure it again, boom, no viral load. right away. So the virus then cant be primary here.
I am sure some people will feel much better on antivirals ( actually you feel like death on them for 3 months. I did) Ozone to me was much quicker. and much less sides. Since ozone kills bacterias and viruses. and increases oxidation without hemoglobin. which increases Nitric oxide.
I think virus is killed with calcium in the cell, this is why calcium chloride is used in russia for viruses. But to get calcium in the cell you need thyroid.
This is why Ray peat for hemolytic anemia , says thyroid, progesterone and vitamin E. And he is right. since if thyroid goes up. then calcium will be allowed to go into the cell.
We need to figure out why the glutathione is not working in these people. since viral load seems to be just the outcome of that. and yes it puts more pressure on it, but I dont think it is primary.
Most people get mono because glutathione goes down, and not that glutathione goes down because they get mono. they get mono since they take some kind of drug which effects the glutathione system
ARL says that it is copper toxicity which causes viral infections. I think it is all kinds of toxicities in the brain that eat peoples glutathione systems.
this is why they use high dose ribo for parkinson, high dose thiamine for MS. and even high dose niacin is patented for MS in the USA? did you know that?
I did about 7 grams of niacin daily alone with ozone and liver flushes and this helped incredibly with all the EBV stuff.
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supernature
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@supernature anemia of chronic disease is low iron in blood and high ferritin.
supernature
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...
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oxygen delivery, sugar metabolism. Insulin thyroid. electrolytes balance.
Nina
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So one goes from slow to fast by fixing these issues. Is being a fast oxidizer ideal or is there a middle ground?
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fast oxidizer is not good either, good is balanced oxidizer.
mattyb
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@Helen
Yeah, I agree with some of that. Of course I don't think valacyclovir will be enough to support it. But the main issue is not that glutathione is broken. It is that the virus creates a feedback loop to increase it's replication rate. EBNA-1 protein creates oxidative stress and creates ROS, uses ROS for replication processes and cell lysis. LMP2 increases b-cell proliferation through activation of TNFa. So it has two mechanisms - one to create oxidative stress for viral replication and spread, and another to increase it's storage capacity. The increase in viral ROS will keep glutathione levels low. It creates a self-sustaining cycle. Normally this cycle is broken by the adaptive immune system, as the body gets really good at identifying antigen presentation on b-cells and kills the infected b-cells so only EBV is forced into latency. There is nothing wrong with going on valacyclovir IF the person also includes other approaches to enhance EBV killing ability. Valacyclovir also only inhibits one form of EBV replication so even on it's own it doesn't do a good job of stopping replication - this is why people are working on autologous t-cell therapy, because it's the only way to really wipe out the virus with decent efficacy.
Some people have genetic SNPs that stop this identification process from occurring. It's crazy. If a person carries two alleles for the HLA-DR1501 mutation, they are 30 times more likely to develop MS. This is 2-3x the odds of a person getting lung cancer with a 25y/pack history. It's insane. HLA-DR mutations reduce the amount of MHC Class II receptors of B-cell surfaces, and without them, t-cells can't identify EBV and don't kill the virus.
So, we don't know for sure if Nina has it or not. She may not have that mutation, and she may just have another kind or none at all.
I agree, to a degree, that we want calcium entering the b-cell, but we want proper organization of calcium in that b-cell. Part of what EBV proteins do is tell the B-cell to stop accumulating calcium in the endoplasmic reticulum, and we want that calcium to go there. Part of the reason is that PKC is needed for replication of EBV, and when calcium stores fill up PKC shuts down. The EBV keeps calcium out of the b-cell. If calcium isn't accumulated into the ER, then it rises to pathogenic levels and stimulates mitochondrial activity, increasing EBV activation rate.
NO can be useful as well, but it is double-edged. NO keeps the b-cells alive and inhibits cell death, which is bad if we want to get rid of EBV. But, it also forces EBV into it's latent phase, which is good. Kind of a wash. EBV actually initiates a low level of iNOS when active.
I think recommendations of:
- Valacyclovir (temporary) + low dose niacin + low dose zinc (this is because valacyclovir is metabolized through alcohol dehydrogenase, so niacin/zinc supports that)
- Riboflavin
- Selenium
- High Dose Vitamin D (temporary) or frequent tanning (maybe K2?)
- NAC
- Vitamin C
- Adequate glucose, cysteine, and glycine in the diet
Should be sufficient to both fight off the virus, and to build up the defences to fight it off in the future. What do you think about those? Let's get some tangible recommendations out there to force EBV into latency and allow the body to recover and fight it off on it's own.
High dose niacin works in acute relapses, people don't use it chronically to prevent relapses in MS. Most people require flushing niacin in high doses and it can decrease the intensity of a relapse significantly, but wears off quickly over a day.
Yeah, I agree with some of that. Of course I don't think valacyclovir will be enough to support it. But the main issue is not that glutathione is broken. It is that the virus creates a feedback loop to increase it's replication rate. EBNA-1 protein creates oxidative stress and creates ROS, uses ROS for replication processes and cell lysis. LMP2 increases b-cell proliferation through activation of TNFa. So it has two mechanisms - one to create oxidative stress for viral replication and spread, and another to increase it's storage capacity. The increase in viral ROS will keep glutathione levels low. It creates a self-sustaining cycle. Normally this cycle is broken by the adaptive immune system, as the body gets really good at identifying antigen presentation on b-cells and kills the infected b-cells so only EBV is forced into latency. There is nothing wrong with going on valacyclovir IF the person also includes other approaches to enhance EBV killing ability. Valacyclovir also only inhibits one form of EBV replication so even on it's own it doesn't do a good job of stopping replication - this is why people are working on autologous t-cell therapy, because it's the only way to really wipe out the virus with decent efficacy.
Some people have genetic SNPs that stop this identification process from occurring. It's crazy. If a person carries two alleles for the HLA-DR1501 mutation, they are 30 times more likely to develop MS. This is 2-3x the odds of a person getting lung cancer with a 25y/pack history. It's insane. HLA-DR mutations reduce the amount of MHC Class II receptors of B-cell surfaces, and without them, t-cells can't identify EBV and don't kill the virus.
So, we don't know for sure if Nina has it or not. She may not have that mutation, and she may just have another kind or none at all.
I agree, to a degree, that we want calcium entering the b-cell, but we want proper organization of calcium in that b-cell. Part of what EBV proteins do is tell the B-cell to stop accumulating calcium in the endoplasmic reticulum, and we want that calcium to go there. Part of the reason is that PKC is needed for replication of EBV, and when calcium stores fill up PKC shuts down. The EBV keeps calcium out of the b-cell. If calcium isn't accumulated into the ER, then it rises to pathogenic levels and stimulates mitochondrial activity, increasing EBV activation rate.
NO can be useful as well, but it is double-edged. NO keeps the b-cells alive and inhibits cell death, which is bad if we want to get rid of EBV. But, it also forces EBV into it's latent phase, which is good. Kind of a wash. EBV actually initiates a low level of iNOS when active.
I think recommendations of:
- Valacyclovir (temporary) + low dose niacin + low dose zinc (this is because valacyclovir is metabolized through alcohol dehydrogenase, so niacin/zinc supports that)
- Riboflavin
- Selenium
- High Dose Vitamin D (temporary) or frequent tanning (maybe K2?)
- NAC
- Vitamin C
- Adequate glucose, cysteine, and glycine in the diet
Should be sufficient to both fight off the virus, and to build up the defences to fight it off in the future. What do you think about those? Let's get some tangible recommendations out there to force EBV into latency and allow the body to recover and fight it off on it's own.
High dose niacin works in acute relapses, people don't use it chronically to prevent relapses in MS. Most people require flushing niacin in high doses and it can decrease the intensity of a relapse significantly, but wears off quickly over a day.
Aleksandr
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Did he try copper?
Aleksandr
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@mattyb @Helen
Interesting i spoke to my partner today about this thread; she apparently also had ebv when she was 14! @Nina she always shows low iron too, and hasnt been able to correct it. When she was young she remembers googling chronic fatigue syndrome cos she thought she had that. She seems okish now, but does get tired sometimes and her iron is still low. I wonder if its the ebv keeping it low?! She sometimes feels she needs coffee to keep going.
She eats a more normal diet with carbs etc but does favour fatty foods like cheese and oils. She doesnt exercise but has a moderately active job on her feet and probably usually gets 6000 steps a day.
What do you think would be good for her / to get her iron up? Her first hair test was 4 lows, the latest one was 3 lows with high magnesium.
She also has the reverse fear of us men here... she fears her hairline is getting lower LOL
Interesting i spoke to my partner today about this thread; she apparently also had ebv when she was 14! @Nina she always shows low iron too, and hasnt been able to correct it. When she was young she remembers googling chronic fatigue syndrome cos she thought she had that. She seems okish now, but does get tired sometimes and her iron is still low. I wonder if its the ebv keeping it low?! She sometimes feels she needs coffee to keep going.
She eats a more normal diet with carbs etc but does favour fatty foods like cheese and oils. She doesnt exercise but has a moderately active job on her feet and probably usually gets 6000 steps a day.
What do you think would be good for her / to get her iron up? Her first hair test was 4 lows, the latest one was 3 lows with high magnesium.
She also has the reverse fear of us men here... she fears her hairline is getting lower LOL
Aleksandr
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is fast oxidizer the same thing as fast metabolism?
I put in my DNA into prometheus and my DNA results suggest i'm slow metabolism.
When I did my hair test before I crashed from ru58841 though in 2016 I was fast oxidizer. I was drinking a lot of coffee though. Could that have pushed me towards fast oxidizer? or intermittent fasting?
This thr ad is interesting as I have tried numerous treatments/antivirals for my cfs. And I would feel a little better on say valtrex, but as soon as I would go off I would feel all my symptoms again. So I didn’t find them helpful long term.
Anyone know why potassium would make me so tired? Seems I can’t tolerate it at all. I also have excessive urination, like any water I drink goes right through me. Advice appreciated!
Anyone know why potassium would make me so tired? Seems I can’t tolerate it at all. I also have excessive urination, like any water I drink goes right through me. Advice appreciated!