Niles' PFS Log

[Niles]

Moving from my intro post over to here so I can log my treatment cycles and improvements.

Background:

I've been through a downward-trending series of mini-recoveries and mini-crashes since I quit finasteride in March, after only taking it for a couple of weeks at .25mg EOD. I've just been giving it time up until now, but it seems I need to take some serious action at this point. My initial symptoms were:

Dry skin on face
Fatigue
Pain in hands
Depression
Brain fog
Emotional blunting
Muscle wastage
Loss of body hair and eyebrow hair
Loss of "fullness" in face
Low libido
ED
Panic attacks
Anxiety
Digestion issues

New symptoms, after another crash accompanied by prostate pain, are (sorry to be graphic):

Genital shrinkage
Hard flaccid
Testicular atrophy
Severe ED
Spider veins on penis (big blue ones and smaller red ones)
Interrupted sleep
Severe mood swings (from negative to neutral and back)

My current cycle (started 1/24):

Wake (~6am):

D3: 5000iu
K2: 680mcg

Eat Breakfast (w/ probiotics/pancreatin/betaine hcl)

Vitamin A: 20,000iu
Vitamin C: 1000mg
Fish Oil
Epiandrosterone: 200mg
Horse Chestnut Extract: 300mg (For vein health and circulation)
Niacinamide: 500mg

Lunch (~12pm) (w/ probiotics/pancreatin/betaine hcl):

Androsterone: 200mg
Horse Chestnut Extract: 300mg
Colostrum: 500mg

After Work (~5:30pm):

Androsterone: 200mg
IGF-1 LR3: 20mcg (for muscle wastage)
Taurine: 500mg

Workout

Protein Shake

Dinner ((w/ probiotics/pancreatin/betaine hcl)

Before Bed (~10pm):

Horse Chestnut Extract: 300mg
Vitamin E: 400iu
Niacinamide: 500mg
Tadalafil: 5mg (for nocturnals)
L-Theanine: 200mg
Gylcine: 6g

Throughout this cycle I will rate my worst symptoms from 1 - 10, with 1 being terrible and 10 being fantastic. At the start of my cycle, I was:

Anxiety: 1
Depression: 1
Energy: 3
Brain fog: 2
ED: 1
Libido: 1
Strength: 2
Muscle Wastage: 2
Sleep: 2
Digestion: 2
Genital shrinkage: 2
Testicular atrophy: 2

 

[Niles]

1 week into my current cycle and I have seen significant improvements (1 = terrible, 10 = fantastic):

Anxiety: 6
Depression: 6
Energy: 5
Brain fog: 6
ED: 3
Libido: 3
Strength: 3
Muscle Wastage: 4
Sleep: 4
Digestion: 3
Genital shrinkage: 4
Testicular atrophy: 4

By far the most noticeable improvements have been the lift in depression and anxiety. I've gone from feeling completely hopeless to feeling like I can tackle this thing head on, and seeing my physical improvements have boosted me mentally as well. Since starting this cycle I've been able to have sex 6 times, though libido and ED are still very unstable and generally weak. Before beginning the cycle there was absolutely no way I'd have been able to do that. With the boost to ED and libido has also come a boost in genital circulation and testicle size throughout the day, though this does fluctuate as well. I'm absolutely in a honeymoon phase with this cycle right now, and I'm feeling cautiously optimistic.

I've felt so good in the gym it's incredible. The IGF and Andro have given me crazy boosts in pump and stamina, and a bit of strength. My muscles have been feeling much fuller outside of the gym as well, and it feels so good. I've already gained 2lbs this week, and I would not be surprised if I gain another 7-8 in my remaining 5 weeks of this cycle. Keep in mind that even though I was lean pre-fin, I still have 15lbs to go before I even hit that baseline.

Interesting Note: You may notice that I have epiandrosterone listed in the morning and androsterone for my afternoon and evening doses. This is by design. Through experimenting with both, I've found that although epiandrosterone has a lower conversion rate to DHT, it gives me a boost in mental energy and mood that I don't get from androsterone. I thought this may just be a coincidence, but after reading up on some bodybuilding forums, I've found that this is a common experience. So, I dose the epiandrosterone in the morning for that mental boost, and androsterone later in the day so that it doesn't interfere with sleep and I get the superior physical effects.

 

[Niles]

Welp, an update has been overdue, so here's where I'm at:

Anxiety: 5
Depression: 5
Energy: 5
Brain fog: 5
ED: 1
Libido: 1
Strength: 3
Muscle Wastage: 3
Sleep: 4
Digestion: 5
Genital shrinkage: 3
Testicular atrophy: 3

You'll notice I've taken a step back in most areas, and it appears that my honeymoon phase with R-Andro was short-lived. For about 4 days I had great libido, energy, erections, and gym sessions, but all of those things have now leveled out. I've been about 7 days now with the above levels remaining more or less consistent, which is still a marked improvement from where I was at before the cycle.

Strangely, about a week into my cycle, my junk got a lot bigger. And I'm not talking like pre-fin state, I'm talking like pre-fin state and beyond. This was for both flaccid and erect, length and girth. This coincided with the peak of my strength returning and scalp itch, so I think it must have been DHT returning in a big way. Unfortunately, things have shrunk again and I'm pretty much where I was pre-cycle in that regard, maybe a just bit better.

Given that things aren't continuing to improve, I'm now thinking that I'm going to shorten this cycle from 6wks to 4wks since I don't see myself getting any additional benefits, and 4wks is often the standard for an R-Andro cycle. At the end of this cycle I'm going to start a 7-day cdnuts herb cycle with the electrolyte protocol for improved health for a few weeks and see where that gets me. Fingers crossed for a post-andro snap-back!

 

[TubZy]

I never got that same great feeling since my first cycle of androsterone two years ago so I know exactly what you are talking about. Ever since then I never messed with it much more as it seemed to be a hit or miss. But I wish you luck on the snap back!

 

[eskimojoe]

niles...without sounding like a nutter, id be interested in getting more info on what your ed symtoms feel like. Mine feel very like a venous leak, ie with a lot of concentration i can get it up but then feel like its a race against the clock before it gets soft, just want to check if others have had similar experience. Cheers

 

[Niles]

I never got that same great feeling since my first cycle of androsterone two years ago so I know exactly what you are talking about. Ever since then I never messed with it much more as it seemed to be a hit or miss. But I wish you luck on the snap back!

Thanks man! It's interesting that your best andro cycle was your first, since many here report increased benefits with subsequent cycles. Crazy how peoples responses can be so different. If I try another andro cycle, it'll probably be awhile after an RU cycle to see if I respond better to androgens. But I'll be giving the electrolyte protocol at least a month before any of that.

 

[Niles]

niles...without sounding like a nutter, id be interested in getting more info on what your ed symtoms feel like. Mine feel very like a venous leak, ie with a lot of concentration i can get it up but then feel like its a race against the clock before it gets soft, just want to check if others have had similar experience. Cheers

Haha, no worries. These are the important details. I can definitely see where that thought comes from, and I've thought about that too since my experience does sound pretty similar to what you're describing. But, when I do get positive blips in libido, erections pretty much come back as well with no problems. So it's honestly hard to say :/

 

[joekool]

Hey @Niles all good info and I’m glad you see some benefits. Just to let you know I’m doing an 8 week Randro cycle. 200mgs twice a day.

I vote you don’t cut your cycle short but go longer. The return of dht helps and sounds like you responded decently to it. That’s actually higher than even my first cycle. But something that’s common with a cycle like this is lowering estrogen too much, which is needed for libido and to sensitize androgen receptors. So while you may feel the higher dht honeymoon is over, the benefits of 8 weeks at a nice blood level will have its benefits. Additionally, vitamin e, a & k2 can have some anti Estrogen effects as well.

I would tailor things slightly, which is very common for any cycle, not just a Pfs cycle but the DHT you’re feeling is most likely still doing good work on your androgen receptors. After the longer cycle, be it 6 or 8 week, the bounce back or return of your own hormone levels could be just as or More powerful than a 4 week cycle. I’m just saying this is what I’m doing so you know I’m not just giving hearsay advice

 

[Niles]

Hey @Niles all good info and I’m glad you see some benefits. Just to let you know I’m doing an 8 week Randro cycle. 200mgs twice a day.

I vote you don’t cut your cycle short but go longer. The return of dht helps and sounds like you responded decently to it. That’s actually higher than even my first cycle. But something that’s common with a cycle like this is lowering estrogen too much, which is needed for libido and to sensitize androgen receptors. So while you may feel the higher dht honeymoon is over, the benefits of 8 weeks at a nice blood level will have its benefits. Additionally, vitamin e, a & k2 can have some anti Estrogen effects as well.

I would tailor things slightly, which is very common for any cycle, not just a Pfs cycle but the DHT you’re feeling is most likely still doing good work on your androgen receptors. After the longer cycle, be it 6 or 8 week, the bounce back or return of your own hormone levels could be just as or More powerful than a 4 week cycle. I’m just saying this is what I’m doing so you know I’m not just giving hearsay advice

Thanks for the advice man, I'll experiment with cutting out the e, a, and k2 and see how I do. If I don't have any more backsliding this next week I'll definitely consider continuing with my originally planned 6wks. I'm actually thinking about replacing the vitamins in my stack with KCl + MgCl2 + HCL + aminos w/ meals, just to try to support this from the bottom up as well. Do you see any potential negative interactions there?

You mention the loss of libido could be from estrogen tanking, but weirdly enough, my nips started getting a bit more puffy/sensitive once the most androgenic effects of this cycle began to level-out, as if estrogen was rising. Have you experienced this, or know what could be contributing to it?

[EDIT]
After blood results came back, it became clear that gyno flare up was due to poor T/E ratio. Estrogen was on the lower end of normal, but Testosterone had tanked to below normal range.

 

[Niles]

Oh, forgot to mention - I've got an ARL hair test on the way! So that'll give some good insight once results are in.

 

[joekool]

Well thats an odd one. No I haven’t experienced any gyno from R-Andro... now I'll say this... Another form of gyno is prolactin based... now I can't see how you would have high prolactin from R-Andro but I can share my symptom and see if you share the same...

High estrogen also means, typically, high prolactin... signs of high prolactin are nipple sensitivity and discharge, lack of libido, ED & high refractory period... I had the symptom of a 'floppy' boner... to me, when I was erect, especially when I walked, it felt like it was going to snap off... I had high prolactin for about 8 months or so post FIN, until I used a prolactin antagonist (otherwise known as dopamine agonist) cabergoline & then pramipexole. To me, it helped during a PCT of R-Andro where I used Clomid & Caber (then switched to Prami)...

Going back to how this all came about, funny enough, Gbolduev was the first person to reiterate that Finasteride was a progestin and Fina-D1ck (and all side effects) are the same as Deca-D1ck... which is a result of high prolactin... it got me thinking and immediately believing in Gbolduev... The clomid/prami cycle dramatically improved my 'floppy' boner and some penile damage. I strongly suggest looking into prolactin to see if you feel any other similar side effects... So it could be gyno irritation from prolactin which, for me, my prolactin levels apparently remained high for months.

When you take a dopamine agonist, a side affect of too high dopamine is urge to gamble and urge to have sex... I never saw that side effect nor would I have been disappointed if it occurred to me

 

[Niles]

My joints are cracking a lot, too, which leads me to guess that it may be high prolactin rather than estrogen. I'll be getting a blood test for hormones in the next week, so maybe that will shed some light on the issue. I also think I get what you mean when you say "floppy boner" - mine seems a lot more rubbery and unstable both when fully and semi erect. Interesting stuff, thanks for the insight.

As far as dopamine agonists go, I do happen to have some metergoline on hand. I also have inositol, but I tend to get headaches from any dose over 3g. Dunno if this is from its serotonergic or dopaminergic effects, though. If I were to try to curb prolactin, would you recommend either of these? And how long would you cycle a prolactin antagonist for? Not trying to hop on either too hastily, just wanna be prepared if blood results and post-cycle symptoms point to high prolactin.


[EDIT]
After blood results came back, it became clear that gyno flare up was due to poor T/E ratio. Estrogen was on the lower end of normal, but Testosterone had tanked to below normal range. Prolactin not likely a factor here.

 

[stupidfreak]

I cant understand how can you rate your testicle shrinkage,let alone claim that one day your shrinkage is 3,the other its 4.

Only if the caseis that by "testicular shrinkage" you mean your balls come and go from being low hanging to high and up?

I personally had a true testie shrinkage,documented by ultrasounds the day i crashed and went to ER and when i had ultra done a week and a half ago.

Edit:i also feel like my balls are always smaller or bigger,i think its mostly anxiety talking?My shrinkage wasnt really drastic,but i thought it was lol.What im saying is dont overthink that and do ultrasounds every 2-4 months to see how it goes.Might be they will be the same size

 

[Niles]

@stupidfreak I admit it's a pretty un-scientific scale, but 10 would be pre-fin size and a 1 would be like grapes. For me the difference between a 3 and a 4 can both be seen and felt. In the same way you're balls can shrink literally overnight with a crash, they can quickly become fuller with beneficial hormone fluctuations. Throughout the day my "hang" varies wildly, from very low and loose to uncomfortably high and tight. My size rating is independent of how high or low they hang, though.

I would break out a ruler, but I'm trying to focus on overall progress over the precise physical details. For me, it's just easier to stay positive and on track that way, given how volatile our situation is.

 

[joekool]

Unfortunately, I have no experience with metergoline or inisitol. @IHateFin did and also has a short story of metergoline post RU.

I believe the RU was best at 50mgs a day for 5 to 7 days. On my last day of 50mgs, I awoke with the best morning wood in ages so that was my signal to stop. Currently, I'm on Randro too and I seem to be responding better this time around. Perhaps it was the right from October, perhaps it was just time or the 3rd cycle of it.

I've heard metergoline is good. My opinion tho, since you're taking igf1, I wouldn't feel a knock off of pramipexol is sufficient. I could be totally wrong about metergoline, never went for it since the real deal was available. Again, just my opinion.

 

[IHateFin]

take inositol with selenium always. i was taking 20g plus for 6 weeks and had no issues.

 

[Niles]

Update:

Unfortunately, I'm pretty much back to square 1, maybe a bit worse-off. Anxiety and brain fog are back, libido, ED, and shrinkage have gotten worse, and genital spider veins have been painfully exacerbated. I've decided to cut my Andro run short, because it appears there has either been some suppression or that I've tanked my estrogen too much.

For now, I will be focusing on diet, exercise, and electrolyte protocol for a few weeks to see if there's any sort of snap back. Only benefit that's remained is strength and muscle definition, though my weight has stayed nearly the same since it appears I've lost some of the little fat I had.

In retrospect, I should have been more concerned to have seen such a dramatic improvement in just the first week of cycle. If I could do it again, I would start much lower at 200mg andro daily for a week, gauge response, then slowly work up. Disappointing to say the least, but trying to stay optimistic.

I have blood tests coming in next week and a hair test on the way as well, so I'll wait until those results are back before I decide what to do after a few weeks on electrolyte protocol.

 

[Niles]

Another development:

Frequent urination, pain in urethra after peeing (feels like there's still urine in there) and mild kidney pain. Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[MNK99]

I did have pain in urethra after or during pssd. I did have burning pain in pelvis right after quitting fin. And I did have kidney and possibly liver pain, maybe gallbladder IDK, recently. During fasting (detox), but also before that. It's difficult for me to pinpoint random pains (always has been).

 

[TubZy]

Another development:

Frequent urination, pain in urethra after peeing (feels like there's still urine in there) and mild kidney pain. Has anyone else experienced this?

Probably from prostate issues, many reports on this before.