PFS almost cured

[Helen]

@hairsuit You can try it, but the dosages has to be very little, since if you suppress your DHT too much , body will create more proteins.

the dosage has to be right to put DHT right into the middle of the range.

and then slowly increase times between dosages. So DHT goes up little by little and ARs get downregulated.


Avodart actually has half life of 5 weeks, so does this slowly. may be a better way to do it. plus it suppresses all 3 5 alpha reductases so may be balances them out also. since fin inhibits only 2.

 

[Helen]

@hairsuit also don't forget that tons of people crashed right on finasteride. at least 50% had that.

so finasteride did something to them while on it. I assume it crashed their NADPH related enzymes, like serine, like glutathione , like tetra folate, like vitamin b12 recycling, etc like Sam-E

 

[jinstewart]

Is it worth or is there any merit in going the other way and using sulforaphane (from eg broccoli extracts) as yourself/NYScientist did?

If you can explain to me (explain like I'm 5 years old I mean to say) why it'd be good/good not to? I do recall you once mentioned it's not for everyone.

 

[snowball]

So what is the option for people like me with low DHT levels (as measured in DUTCH test)? I took finasteride and later saw palmetto for a few days - that’s how all this started many years back

 

[tanedout]

@Helen found another interesting improvement through use of 5ari's AND tribulus... tomato juice/prog cream:

Then their PFS cant be that severe. I mean when I had zero libido for months last year after my crash I couldnt accept it any longer and tried 5AR inhibitors again (progesterone cream). Then 2 weeks later I came up with my own protocol (tomato juice, tribulus, no fap) and cured my libido and almost all mental symptoms few weeks later. Still have other symptoms, but the worst symptoms are gone.

this is from solvepfs, and there's a lot of recoveries posted there, many with similar solutions, I wont be able to link because its all private and you need an account, but I can dig up some more if you're interested.

Anyone here tried this 'tribulus & tomato juice' method? Anyone have a link to it on SPFS?

Not really sure exactly why tomato juice would be a benefit, looking at the top vitamins and minerals in it (recommended daily values in %);

vitamin C33%
biotin24%
molybdenum20%
vitamin K16%
copper12%
manganese9%

Tomatoes

It's quite high in vitamin K, but otherwise it's a fairly normal balance of vitamins and minerals that you see in a lot of vegetables. I'm currently taking tribulus daily, so might as well try adding some tomatoes juice, but I can't really see what it should work alongside trib?

 

[Aflac94]

this is what Pfsstinks has been trying. and it did not work in his case.

that was my idea is that if someone goes back on fin and then slowly comes off. then the body will have time to downregulate protein levels of the receptor.

meaning make it less sensitive.

when you come off cold turkey, then the receptor is super sensitive and that is why it gets shut down , since in places where DHT is, it is super sensitive,

and the brain shuts down ARs , DHT works and works fine,

what does not work is testosterone. since it is the same ARs which got shut down.


so in DHT sensitive tissues, when you took FIN, the ARs became super sensitive.

and in testostorone sensitive tissues, ARs are normal. since you never were down on testosterone on fin.

so when DHT goes up, body senses too much DHT action, and puts on a lock on AR to lower its action, this is beyond the receptor.

so this basically lowers DHT action to normal. but lowers testosterone action to below normal. since ARs were not overexpressed in cells with testosterone.



This is how Cdnuts got cured, he cycled R andro, and slowly downregulated DHT receptors, and testosterone started to work.


But I think people have 2 problems here, one with DHT and one with gaba.

This is why different hormone levels.

Man this is so good , it makes so much sense. Would the gaba problem be the same issue with progesterone / Allo , like allo works but progesterone does not. Same with cortisol and it’s 5-alpha met THOC works but cortisol does not.

I still haven’t connected the dots on how this then relates to the minerals (like how did my copper toxicity play in), but I feel like I’m getting closer the more you keep explaining

 

[jinstewart]

Anyone have a link to it on SPFS?

Not tried it, was debating it though in line with my current fetish for plant-based protocols: SolvePFS

Here's a summary just in case (hope they don't mind):

Sent: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:01 pm
by moonman
How much tomato juice were you drinking daily and did you add other 5ar inhibitors with it?
by TyCr0Z
Just tomato juice. But I also only masturbated once a week during these cycles (wasnt hard to do cause I didnt have libido anyway). The idea was to raise testosterone/DHT during the week and then after 6 days of abstinence use a “high” dose of 5AR inhibitor (400ml tomato juice). Then on day 7 I always had libido and masturbated to reset my system. I always felt amazing on day 7 after orgasm, cause then testosterone finally drops and the receptors get more sensitive. Then taper down over the week (300ml, 200ml, etc.) until you are at 0ml. Do this for some weeks. This triggered an epigenetic change for me. I woke up in October and had libido every day suddenly.
So basically: raise testosterone/DHT over the week. Then inhibit DHT on day 6 to get strong libido on day 7 and masturbate/have sex to reset the system. Repeat.

Ok thank you man for your disponibility to explaine.
Just to be sure, cause I don’t want to hurt myself even more:

1. From monday to friday no sex and increasing Testo with tribulus (if needed).
2. On saturday after dinner, drink one shot of 400ml fresh tomato.
3. Sunday, masturbation and after that in the evening I will drink 300ml of fresh tomato (depends on me about the quantity)…after I have drunk the 300ml, that’s it?
4. Repeat the process again from point 1)
   Is this right?
   Once repeated the process, on the next Saturday (point 2) I will have again 400ml? and then point 3?
   I remember at your first post you said you need to have 300ml-200ml-100ml- 0ml…how and when do you do this process?
   Sorry man if I keep asking but it’s confusing and hard to understand details by texting.
   Thank you again so much for your kind replyes and help!

No problem man.

1. monday till saturday.
2. correct.
3. correct.
4. yes. You can also try 500 or 600ml on saturday and see if that makes your libido stronger. The higher your testosterone/DHT the more tomato juice you can use.

So I did it like this:
Monday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Tuesday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Wednesday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Thursday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Friday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex, heavy workout (raises DHT)
Saturday: 400ml tomato juice after dinner, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Sunday: 300ml tomato juice after dinner, 400mg tribulus, sex
I only needed 4 of these cycles, then I had libido every day suddenly.
On Saturday I also had more calories than normal for dinner (was my cheatday, rest of the week I was eating 100% clean).

.....................................

To make it short: Some of the silenced androgen receptors get “turned on again” if you go back on 5AR. Its a simple mechanism. BUT if you dont have enough DHT to begin with it wont work of course. You need high/excess DHT for this protocol. Like freeflow said, PFS isnt about how high your DHT is. I had off the charts high DHT last year when I was on a huge TRT dose and perfect estrogen. Yet I had ZERO libido! My DHT didnt work AT ALL. Now my DHT is pretty low compared to last summer (no TRT), but since my receptors arent silenced anymore (epigenetic change thanks to tomato juice cycles) I have good libido and erections.
Also, this probably only works for someone with VERY LOW or ZERO libido (like I had last year). Then this is pretty good to “shock” your system/receptors. Now I dont use much 5AR food anymore, only AFTER weightlifting when DHT is way higher than normal. Then 5AR food makes me feel better. I’m also in a calorie deficit since 6 weeks to get to 10-12% bodyfat, this lowers testosterone automatically, so I have to be very careful with 5AR food now. I actually had to increase my tribulus a bit cause I felt my androgens decrease.
I’m not hypersexual anymore, just “normal” now (in regards to libido/DHT, my dopamine is still not like before).

.....................................

So, just a question: why are you still here around?
I also recovered 80% and got back in the worst state ever now, but when I was recovered for different years I was enjoying life, not keeping staying around the forum.​

Because my dopamine (mental symptoms) isnt cured. For example, often my orgasm feels very weak in my brain. I want to fix these issues, thats why I come back to this forum. Tomato juice cycles didnt cure this symptom. It only cured my DHT related symptoms.

1. Yes, no masturbation for 1 week. I also lifted heavy weights one day before tomato juice and used as much tribulus as I needed to feel ok every day.
2. I just bought cheap tomato juice from a shop. You should start with 400ml. Drink it all at once in the evening directly after dinner.
3. Yes, on day 7 you should have enough libido and masturbate. In the evening after dinner drink tomato juice again, but LESS, only 300ml (or 200ml, you need to try what feels best for you). If you would stop the tomato juice suddenly, then all the DHT comes back next day and you could feel worse.

.....................................

I was never 100% recovered. This protocol only cured my libido and erections. And its still cured over 1 year later. But still have other symptoms.

 

[tanedout]

Not tried it, was debating it though in line with my current fetish for plant-based protocols: SolvePFS

Here's a summary just in case (hope they don't mind):

Sent: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:01 pm
by moonman
How much tomato juice were you drinking daily and did you add other 5ar inhibitors with it?
by TyCr0Z
Just tomato juice. But I also only masturbated once a week during these cycles (wasnt hard to do cause I didnt have libido anyway). The idea was to raise testosterone/DHT during the week and then after 6 days of abstinence use a “high” dose of 5AR inhibitor (400ml tomato juice). Then on day 7 I always had libido and masturbated to reset my system. I always felt amazing on day 7 after orgasm, cause then testosterone finally drops and the receptors get more sensitive. Then taper down over the week (300ml, 200ml, etc.) until you are at 0ml. Do this for some weeks. This triggered an epigenetic change for me. I woke up in October and had libido every day suddenly.
So basically: raise testosterone/DHT over the week. Then inhibit DHT on day 6 to get strong libido on day 7 and masturbate/have sex to reset the system. Repeat.

Ok thank you man for your disponibility to explaine.​

Just to be sure, cause I don’t want to hurt myself even more:​

1. From monday to friday no sex and increasing Testo with tribulus (if needed).
2. On saturday after dinner, drink one shot of 400ml fresh tomato.
3. Sunday, masturbation and after that in the evening I will drink 300ml of fresh tomato (depends on me about the quantity)…after I have drunk the 300ml, that’s it?
4. Repeat the process again from point 1)
   Is this right?
   Once repeated the process, on the next Saturday (point 2) I will have again 400ml? and then point 3?
   I remember at your first post you said you need to have 300ml-200ml-100ml- 0ml…how and when do you do this process?
   Sorry man if I keep asking but it’s confusing and hard to understand details by texting.
   Thank you again so much for your kind replyes and help!

No problem man.

1. monday till saturday.
2. correct.
3. correct.
4. yes. You can also try 500 or 600ml on saturday and see if that makes your libido stronger. The higher your testosterone/DHT the more tomato juice you can use.

So I did it like this:
Monday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Tuesday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Wednesday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Thursday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Friday: no tomato juice, 400mg tribulus, no sex, heavy workout (raises DHT)
Saturday: 400ml tomato juice after dinner, 400mg tribulus, no sex
Sunday: 300ml tomato juice after dinner, 400mg tribulus, sex
I only needed 4 of these cycles, then I had libido every day suddenly.
On Saturday I also had more calories than normal for dinner (was my cheatday, rest of the week I was eating 100% clean).

.....................................

To make it short: Some of the silenced androgen receptors get “turned on again” if you go back on 5AR. Its a simple mechanism. BUT if you dont have enough DHT to begin with it wont work of course. You need high/excess DHT for this protocol. Like freeflow said, PFS isnt about how high your DHT is. I had off the charts high DHT last year when I was on a huge TRT dose and perfect estrogen. Yet I had ZERO libido! My DHT didnt work AT ALL. Now my DHT is pretty low compared to last summer (no TRT), but since my receptors arent silenced anymore (epigenetic change thanks to tomato juice cycles) I have good libido and erections.
Also, this probably only works for someone with VERY LOW or ZERO libido (like I had last year). Then this is pretty good to “shock” your system/receptors. Now I dont use much 5AR food anymore, only AFTER weightlifting when DHT is way higher than normal. Then 5AR food makes me feel better. I’m also in a calorie deficit since 6 weeks to get to 10-12% bodyfat, this lowers testosterone automatically, so I have to be very careful with 5AR food now. I actually had to increase my tribulus a bit cause I felt my androgens decrease.
I’m not hypersexual anymore, just “normal” now (in regards to libido/DHT, my dopamine is still not like before).

.....................................

So, just a question: why are you still here around?​

I also recovered 80% and got back in the worst state ever now, but when I was recovered for different years I was enjoying life, not keeping staying around the forum.​

Because my dopamine (mental symptoms) isnt cured. For example, often my orgasm feels very weak in my brain. I want to fix these issues, thats why I come back to this forum. Tomato juice cycles didnt cure this symptom. It only cured my DHT related symptoms.

1. Yes, no masturbation for 1 week. I also lifted heavy weights one day before tomato juice and used as much tribulus as I needed to feel ok every day.
2. I just bought cheap tomato juice from a shop. You should start with 400ml. Drink it all at once in the evening directly after dinner.
3. Yes, on day 7 you should have enough libido and masturbate. In the evening after dinner drink tomato juice again, but LESS, only 300ml (or 200ml, you need to try what feels best for you). If you would stop the tomato juice suddenly, then all the DHT comes back next day and you could feel worse.

.....................................

I was never 100% recovered. This protocol only cured my libido and erections. And its still cured over 1 year later. But still have other symptoms.

Thanks, I wasn't aware tomato juice in a high dose was a DHT inhibitor. It sounds similar to other recoveries people have made by cycling DHT inhibitors, like cycling licorice or fin. I guess CDnuts method is at least in part cycling DHT inhibitor herbs too (tongkat etc).

I'll definitely give this a go at some point. Might get a thread started and see if a few others will join in trying see if anyone gets any gains!

 

[jinstewart]

Thanks, I wasn't aware tomato juice in a high dose was a DHT inhibitor. It sounds similar to other recoveries people have made by cycling DHT inhibitors, like cycling licorice or fin. I guess CDnuts method is at least in part cycling DHT inhibitor herbs too (tongkat etc).

I'll definitely give this a go at some point. Might get a thread started and see if a few others will join in trying see if anyone gets any gains!

Hmmm, yes might have a try waiting for my TEI results. Shall we?

 

[tanedout]

Hmmm, yes might have a try waiting for my TEI results. Shall we?

Got to be worth a go! I'm already taking trib daily, so really it's just a case of adding tomato juice for a couple of days. II'll get a thread started. Be good if a few people can try it definitely

 

[freeflow]

I get the biggest erections still after eating coconut flesh/oil. The next morning i wake up with huge erections, and during the night my pre pfs types of dreams are back, the fighting, sports type of dreams. It should be the testo working again when lowering the dht.
I used to get partial recoveries with both tomato juice and coconut oil.

 

[Trump_1776]

progesterone raises potassium in the body, tribulus increases 5ar.

of course you lose libido on tribulus you increased DHT. DHT kills libido.

100% correct. When Im on trib cycle, I feel pretty alright, but still no sex drive really except in dreams. When im off, after about 2.5 days, sex drive back in force.

Trib certainly is interesting. I feel it raise some estrogen in me, but after each cycle less so, probably because 5ar becomes more effective.

 

[freeflow]

100% correct. When Im on trib cycle, I feel pretty alright, but still no sex drive really except in dreams. When im off, after about 2.5 days, sex drive back in force.

Trib certainly is interesting. I feel it raise some estrogen in me, but after each cycle less so, probably because 5ar becomes more effective.

I got gyno a couple of times from being on tribulus, especially the mediherb and made me very emotional like crying.

 

[Trump_1776]

I got gyno a couple of times from being on tribulus, especially the mediherb and made me very emotional like crying.

Same here minus the gyno. Pretty certain gyno is a genetic response. None the less, if you boost your T high above your bodies pre set levels it will begin to aromatize.

 

[snowball]

How gyno was fixed? I have got puffiness since using mediherb trib..

 

[5 alpha]

this is what Pfsstinks has been trying. and it did not work in his case.

that was my idea is that if someone goes back on fin and then slowly comes off. then the body will have time to downregulate protein levels of the receptor.

meaning make it less sensitive.

when you come off cold turkey, then the receptor is super sensitive and that is why it gets shut down , since in places where DHT is, it is super sensitive,

and the brain shuts down ARs , DHT works and works fine,

what does not work is testosterone. since it is the same ARs which got shut down.


so in DHT sensitive tissues, when you took FIN, the ARs became super sensitive.

and in testostorone sensitive tissues, ARs are normal. since you never were down on testosterone on fin.

so when DHT goes up, body senses too much DHT action, and puts on a lock on AR to lower its action, this is beyond the receptor.

so this basically lowers DHT action to normal. but lowers testosterone action to below normal. since ARs were not overexpressed in cells with testosterone.



This is how Cdnuts got cured, he cycled R andro, and slowly downregulated DHT receptors, and testosterone started to work.


But I think people have 2 problems here, one with DHT and one with gaba.

This is why different hormone levels.

Helen,

If the idea behind this theory is to lower DHT and or Testosterone with the plan for DHT and or Testosterone to rise slowly in hopes that it will result in up-regulated receptors becoming down-regulated is there a better way to do this with out inhibiting NADPH and or the 5ar enzymes using DHT inhibitors?

how about trying to inhibit the entire hormonal pathway by taking something that inhibits the production of Progesterone?

Inhibition of progesterone secretion with trilostane for mid-trimester termination of pregnancy: randomized controlled trials.

Progesterone is central to the maintenance of pregnancy, and is thus the ideal target for fertility regulation. Two mechanisms by which progesterone can be targeted are: receptor blockade and reduction of progesterone production through enzyme inhibition.

Inhibition of progesterone secretion with trilostane for mid-trimester termination of pregnancy: randomized controlled trials. - PubMed - NCBI

Maybe we can inhibit everything by stopping the production of progesterone at the beginning of the pathway...coming off of the trilostane slowly in order to let everything rise again and repeat over and over again.

Also, Helen this is off topic but still involves trilostane have you heard of how woman who take Mifepristone for abortion can actually reverse the abortion process by taking high dose progesterone? The idea is that if they take enough progesterone to "still make it" to the Progesterone receptors despite their Progesterone receptors being blocked by the Mifepristone that the abortion will not happen. Well following that logic is it possible that maybe when we ran our Mifepristone cycles that our bodies starting producing tons of Progesterone in order to "still make it" to the Progesterone receptors resulting in the Mifepristone cycles not having it's desired effect for us. Maybe if we blocked actual Progesterone production with trilostane and took Mifepristone the bodies "reaction mechanism" to having it's Progesterone receptors blocked (which is increase in Progesterone) could not happen thus influencing the result?

 

[Helen]

@5 alpha Yes, I was thinking about trilostane. we actually bought it to try it out .

what it does it inhibits 3 beta hsd. So it inhibits pregnenolone to progesterone conversion, and also DHEA further into testosterone conversion. So kills testosterone , DHT, progesterone and cortisol.

Also it acts as agonist of AR. so probably will not cause androgen deprivation not sure about that one though.


As far as Mifepristone . it blocks ER, GR, AR, and PR. So all those hormones rise on Mife. that is why it is used to force adrenals and balls to push hard.

thus hormones rise hard afterwards and on it.

 

[5 alpha]

@5 alpha Yes, I was thinking about trilostane. we actually bought it to try it out .

what it does it inhibits 3 beta hsd. So it inhibits pregnenolone to progesterone conversion, and also DHEA further into testosterone conversion. So kills testosterone , DHT, progesterone and cortisol.

Also it acts as agonist of AR. so probably will not cause androgen deprivation not sure about that one though.


As far as Mifepristone . it blocks ER, GR, AR, and PR. So all those hormones rise on Mife. that is why it is used to force adrenals and balls to push hard.

thus hormones rise hard afterwards and on it.

Interesting...

When did you guys get the Trilostane and has anyone used it yet?
Did you guys get Trilosane for the purpose of using it to inhibit 3 beta hsd for the purpose of preventing the conversion of pregnenolone to progesterone so it would kill testosterone and DHT in hopes that T and DHT can slowly rise resulting in up regulated receptors becoming down regulated? or for another purpose?

Also, did you see the significant rise in Progesterone that Jinstewart experienced while on his 800 MG Mifepristone cycle?

Do you think that if we blocked the actual production of progesterone while blocking the progesterone receptors would be a good idea? I am assuming it would depend on which case we are correct? maybe depending on which case we are taking Mifepristone with progesterone (like people have already done) would be a good idea but if we are a different case blocking actual progesterone production while taking Miferistone would be the better way to go?

If Jinstweart's progesterone was already high before taking Miferistone maybe he is a case where he could have benefited from having lower Progesterone blood levels while blocking the Prog receptors?

I am deff interested in this path

also fin and other DHT inhibitors do actually inhibit 3 beta hsd at least to a small degree correct?

 

[Helen]

Interesting...

When did you guys get the Trilostane and has anyone used it yet?
Did you guys get Trilosane for the purpose of using it to inhibit 3 beta hsd for the purpose of preventing the conversion of pregnenolone to progesterone so it would kill testosterone and DHT in hopes that T and DHT can slowly rise resulting in up regulated receptors becoming down regulated? or for another purpose?

Also, did you see the significant rise in Progesterone that Jinstewart experienced while on his 800 MG Mifepristone cycle?

Do you think that if we blocked the actual production of progesterone while blocking the progesterone receptors would be a good idea? I am assuming it would depend on which case we are correct? maybe depending on which case we are taking Mifepristone with progesterone (like people have already done) would be a good idea but if we are a different case blocking progesterone while taking Miferistone would be the better way to go?

If Jinstweart's progesterone was already high before taking Miferistone maybe he is a case where he could have benefited from having lower Progesterone blood levels while blocking the Prog receptors?

I am deff interested in this path

also fin and other DHT inhibitors do actually inhibit 3 beta hsd at least to a small degree correct?

androgens are not really made from progesterone, trilostane inhibits 3 beta hsd. 3 beta hsd does not only convert pregnenolone to progesterone, but also DHEA to androgens , thus trilostane inhibits testosterone and DHT. and estradiol since it inhibits conversion of dhea into androgens

Trilostane, an inhibitor of 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, has an agonistic activity on androgen receptor in human prostate cancer cells - ScienceDirect here it will be easier for you to understand.


blocking progesterone production and blocking progesterone receptor. yes it will upregulate the receptor better. If you need it upregulated.

 

[5 alpha]

androgens are not really made from progesterone, trilostane inhibits 3 beta hsd. 3 beta hsd does not only convert pregnenolone to progesterone, but also DHEA to androgens , thus trilostane inhibits testosterone and DHT. and estradiol since it inhibits conversion of dhea into androgens

Trilostane, an inhibitor of 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, has an agonistic activity on androgen receptor in human prostate cancer cells - ScienceDirect here it will be easier for you to understand.


blocking progesterone production and blocking progesterone receptor. yes it will upregulate the receptor better. If you need it upregulated.

Helen,

Thank you for explaining that better and providing the Trilostane link. So in theory if we are trying to bring over all DHT and T levels down over and over again in an attempt to down regulate this would be the safer way to do it for us rather than taking a DHT inhibitor?

Blocking the production of Prog while blocking the Prog receptor sounds like it has promise. I hope we can get more labs from people who had their levels checked while on the RU like Jinstweart did. I plan on doing this. I plan on doing the same type of RU experiment that Jinstweart did possible with prog or with trilostane. I need to get organized