PFS , ( GABA, ARs, DHT testosterone ) Mechanism of PFS continued.

[Helen]

I hope after CSF studies people understand a possible mechanism of PFS more. I posted a possible explanation and the protocol to try , but no one is trying it.

People are on TEI which is good and will cure you , also I approved Cdnuts protocol ( after seeing the studies understanding the mechanism)


I want to try to outline 2 mechanisms here which are interrelated


1) Finasteride is a progestin, as any progestin it bind NADPH. but unlike progesterone it does not convert to allopregnenolone or cortisol using NADPH.

So finasteride lowers allopregnenolone, and also lowers DHT since it binds to NADPH


So now the body has low DHT. Now follow me carefully. since DHT levels go very low. The body overexpresses the ARs in all DHT sensitive tissues

It is mainly in prostate and the BRAIN. Also body acetylates the histone on the ARs proteins. by acetylating histones, the body increases the effect of DHT on gene expression.

This way even with very very little DHT levels in blood, it can act the same way as normal DHT.

Then after you come of the drug. your DHT goes up and you have insane DHT action in the brain , prostate and all DHT sensitive tissues. Since in those tissues DHT is 10 times the volume of testosterone. There is basically no testosterone there.

DHT is a stress hormone, it causes aldosterone secretion and adrenaline secretion beyond regular aldosterone regulation. this is why if a normal healthy person takes DHT bioidentical hormone, that person will lose libido and erections.


SO after you go off finasteride DHT goes back up and now the brain has to lower its action, but histones are already acetylated, and ARs are highly overexpressed in all DHT sensitive places.

So the only way for the body to stop DHT action is to bind it with proteins. and also to methylate DNA to silence the gene expression.

This is why we see extremely low DHT levels in CSF fluid of PFS people. and most people's SHBG goes up, since it is trying very hard to bind DHT.

Since the body turns on the methylation and methylates the DNA to silence DHT action. It does this methylation thing to ALL ARs, and no only in places where DHT is present.

It methylates the DNA in all places. And this way in all other places where testosterone is a major hormone , basically testosterone GETS totally shut down.

Since during PFS testosterone was not low, and ARs were not overexpressed in tissues where testosterone is ACTIVE.

And it is testosterone which is responsible for deep voice, and libido and erections. not DHT.

So basically all tissues which are DHT sensitive have highly overexpressed ARs and and all tissues where testosterone is dominant it has normal ARs. but body is trying to fight DHT and methylates all ARs, and this way DHT gets back to almost normal action in DHT sensitive tissues , but testosterone does not act at all in testosterone sensitive tissues.


This explains why Cdnuts and other proponents of r andro get cured. since they overwhelm the binding of DHT and force the numbers of ARs to die down in DHT sensitive tissues.

and upon withdrawal from DHT, the brain wants more DHT , and it demethylates globally by which it makes testosterone work again.


I think there is a much faster way to do it. You basically need to stop methylation and feed DHT in this moment which will downregulate receptor density .




This also explains why people feel cured while on Anavar or other weak dht derivates like proviron. Since those are weaker than DHT. and are anti dht.

This also explains why you feel better on thyroid. Since THYROID increases the need for estrogen, and basically turns more testosterone into estrogen and less into DHT , which balances the ratio of testosterone to DHT. Less DHT equals more working testosterone.


Basically the problem is in the ratio of action of testosterone and DHT in their sensitive tissues.

DHT got very strong in its tissues, and this basically switches off testosterone action globally.

This is why anyone who has PFS will feel totally recovered by taking testosterone plus thyroid as a stilt.. Since thyroid will lower DHT and increase estrogen, which will steer the ratio of DHT - Testosterone to the testosterone side.



2) second problem is that finasteride killed

both GABA regulators at the same time. allopregnenolone and 3 adiol.

I would assume it will upregulate gaba receptor big time, and later it could stop 3 alpha hsd from working after you come off the drug, which is basically making the DHT problem described above even worse, since 3 alpha hsd is needed to convert DHT into 3 adiol.


This explains why some people had success with GHB which overtime downregulated GABA A receptor, and allowed DHT levels to come down which basically helped the DHT receptor overexpression problem.

I would assume this route could help the situation to some extent.



This mechanism explains hormone levels in CSF.

You need to understand that only free forms of hormones act on the brain. and prostate. if you want to measure DHT, you need to measure free DHT, not total DHT .

And when you measure all of the free forms, you will see that it should match the CSF study. Since only free hormones can enter CSF fluid.

 

[Helen]

Since NADPH is not only relates to DHT, it could be all other hormones involved in it also, which I mentioned in CSF thread

 

[RebelWithACause]

Is this also the reason why cortisol works for slow oxidizer? Slow oxidizer takes cortisol -> higher metabolism -> more estrogen -> less DHT

 

[Trump_1776]

It explains why the majority of recoveries are a result of cycling DHT prohormones.

I managed to get my hands on pure DHT powder as well. We'll see what I decide to do with it

 

[Helen]

It explains why the majority of recoveries are a result of cycling DHT prohormones.

I managed to get my hands on pure DHT powder as well. We'll see what I decide to do with it

Yes , the problem is that NADPH was involved not only in DHT production but in several other hormones.

Thus those people get better but not fully cured. Like Walker. he fixed AR overexpression in DHT sensitive tissues, but he did not fix gaba problem, Thus has PTSD and mental sides.

this is why all people on Cdnuts protocol , jacknap, Walker, they basically have allopregnenolone problem left. and they are running the protocol, but it does nothing for those sides.


I even suspect that herb cycling is not even needed.

 

[talkingant]

So in terms of a protocol, you would need to take enough DHT to raise free DHT high. In order to do that safely, you would need to get a before and after blood test, to make sure you dont raise it to dangerous levels. Can we test total DHT, or does it have to be free DHT? I havent seen a free DHT blood test anywhere, but ill look again.

It might also be necessary to raise T during this cycle to avoid negative side effects from bad DHT to T ratio. Could do this with natural methods like exercise+herbs or hormonal methods like HCG or exogenous T. But we dont want to shut down T production so be careful with exogenous T.

How long should such a cycle be? Im guessing around 2 weeks would be a good starting point. Keep in mind you might feel worse if Helen is right, because you would be overactivating AR.

 

[RebelWithACause]

Bottom line, most



Yes , the problem is that NADPH was involved not only in DHT production but in several other hormones.

Thus those people get better but not fully cured. Like Walker. he fixed AR overexpression in DHT sensitive tissues, but he did not fix gaba problem, Thus has PTSD and mental sides.

this is why all people on Cdnuts protocol , jacknap, Walker, they basically have allopregnenolone problem left. and they are running the protocol, but it does nothing for those sides.


I even suspect that herb cycling is not even needed.

Problem with Walker and jacknap is they both used something different than finasteride (Saw Palmetto and RU58841).

I think we need to distinguish all three cases. Post Saw Palmetto have similar hair tests and seem to have similar problems.

 

[Helen]

Combining DHT with gaba agonist might help.

 

[Helen]

So in terms of a protocol, you would need to take enough DHT to raise free DHT high. In order to do that safely, you would need to get a before and after blood test, to make sure you dont raise it to dangerous levels. Can we test total DHT, or does it have to be free DHT? I havent seen a free DHT blood test anywhere, but ill look again.

It might also be necessary to raise T during this cycle to avoid negative side effects from bad DHT to T ratio. Could do this with natural methods like exercise+herbs or hormonal methods like HCG or exogenous T. But we dont want to shut down T production so be careful with exogenous T.

How long should such a cycle be? Im guessing around 2 weeks would be a good starting point. Keep in mind you might feel worse if Helen is right, because you would be overactivating AR.

I think PSSD is different from PFS

 

[MNK99]

I didn't cycle herbs at all except pct.
I figured after fasting and naturally training (also 14 y before this), may as well just use Randro and 4andro. But perhaps some need to work up to it. Did get gains continued to on herbs but was strictly pct as I had it left over. Tried herbs solo didn't work but then again definitely I needed to fast before. I did a lot of CD's but always intended on using g other things which I did. But now to only. Maybe one other thing soon. But mostly Tei and fasting before that. A couple issues left (in PFS), and other shyt that is seperate but I believe and can see it ameliorating asthma, mood DX, insomnia as well.

If not for a couple vanity reasons and overtraining and injury... Probably would only use Tei. And say 9/12 mo a yr that's what I'll do. Also tired of natty gains. Work your ass off be in great shape, great, but injury and recovery and gains are slower way slower.

 

[joekool]

I had mentioned ages ago that Xanax will help return nocturnal erections when taken at night. I tried a 30 day cycle upon my initial crash and can't say it helped nor hurt. I would've loved to have had a DHT at that time too though... perhaps that's the initial line of recovery...

I will respectfully disagree that testosterone is responsible for libido and erection. An estrogen sensitized Androgen receptor which then uptakes DHT with NO release is what provides libido and erection. In fact, oral dhea is a libido enhancer in normal men... since it converts heavily to estrogen. Low doses of course

another point you want to add is the skin of the penis, especially the glans, is very high in AR which is why the down regulation post-fin that I've been stating & I think is a big part of your post here, leads us to not have any feeling in our penises similar to just touching any skin on our body.

 

[Helen]

you see there is a problem with enzymes that go one after another , 3 alpha hsd goes right after 5 alpha reductase. and both of the end products are super sensitive.

This is why if you combine DHT with GABA agonist, it should downregulate both DHT and GABA and open up both enzymes 5ar and 3alpha hsd.

 

[Helen]

I had mentioned ages ago that Xanax will help return nocturnal erections when taken at night. I tried a 30 day cycle upon my initial crash and can't say it helped nor hurt. I would've loved to have had a DHT at that time too though... perhaps that's the initial line of recovery...

I will respectfully disagree that testosterone is responsible for libido and erection. An estrogen sensitized Androgen receptor which then uptakes DHT with NO release is what provides libido and erection. In fact, oral dhea is a libido enhancer in normal men... since it converts heavily to estrogen. Low doses of course

another point you want to add is the skin of the penis, especially the glans, is very high in AR which is why the down regulation post-fin that I've been stating & I think is a big part of your post here, leads us to not have any feeling in our penises similar to just touching any skin on our body.

Dihydrotestosterone - Wikipedia


Please , see what testosterone does and what DHT does.

 

[Helen]

I had mentioned ages ago that Xanax will help return nocturnal erections when taken at night. I tried a 30 day cycle upon my initial crash and can't say it helped nor hurt. I would've loved to have had a DHT at that time too though... perhaps that's the initial line of recovery...

I will respectfully disagree that testosterone is responsible for libido and erection. An estrogen sensitized Androgen receptor which then uptakes DHT with NO release is what provides libido and erection. In fact, oral dhea is a libido enhancer in normal men... since it converts heavily to estrogen. Low doses of course

another point you want to add is the skin of the penis, especially the glans, is very high in AR which is why the down regulation post-fin that I've been stating & I think is a big part of your post here, leads us to not have any feeling in our penises similar to just touching any skin on our body.

Estrogen gets inhibited with high DHT action. of course estrogen is part of the libido. and erections.

DHEA does not convert into estrogen ))) DHEA binds estrogen receptor. weakly.

Taking DHEA increases PROGESTERONE in the body, this is the only reason why it increases nitric oxide.

Elevated progesterone levels in women on DHEA supplementation likely represent assay interference




Nitric oxide cant be made without testostrerone, since testosterone increases IRON absorption which MAKES Nitric oxide. the nitric oxide enzyme is IRON ENZYME.

Testosterone Suppresses Hepcidin in Men: A Potential Mechanism for Testosterone-Induced Erythrocytosis

The reason why estrogen helps is because estrogen increases COPPER absorption which provides SODs to make sure that eNOS runs smoothly.

This happens since production of nitric oxide creates SUPER oxide. which COPPER is needed to get rid of.

Basically it works like that progesterone increases potassium and zinc increases testosterone testosterone increases IRON, iron makes nitric oxide, testosterone converts to estrogen, estrogen retains copper, copper increases Sods which keep Nitric oxide not oxidized. and DHT then releases it.( lowers it, lowers potassium )

So you can't have estrogen sensitized androgen receptors. you can have pretreated with estrogen tissues, which have high copper. this will happen only in potassium rich cell.





Also 50% of PFS sufferers feel totally recovered by blocking estrogen, which you can see on Propeciahelp forum. And 50 % feel worse. ( fast and slow oxidizer)


Skin penis tissue showed highly overexpressed density of ARs in PFS.( recent melcangi study)

this is why people ran NITRIC oxide protocol and felt totally recovery of libido and erections. ( tallglass) Since the missing part is not DHT action, but nitric oxide action.

And if AR in penis skin or penis was not sensitive then adding nitric oxide would have done NOTHING< but it totally restored the action of the penis in people.


This is why when you block ARs in skin with anavar, your penis grows. and looks normal. since by killing DHT action( lowering and blockng AR receptors in DHT sensitive areas, since anavar is a DHT derivative) , you allow testosterone to produce nitric oxide.

TESTOSTERONE sensitivity goes up which increases NITRIC OXIDE production.

and this is why when you put DHT gel on your penis in PFS. NOTHING HAPPENS. Since it is not about DHT. DHT decreases potassium and potassium increases Nitric oxide.

but if you add anvar your dick explodes. since you simply block ARs in areas where DHT binds. and this allows the brain which is where DHT binds, to low methylation which increases TESTOSTERONE sensitivity all over the body which then increases nitric oxide production.


please read carefully what I posted in the openning post.


Also read the CSF thread, 17 beta estradiol is also low in CFS of PFS patients along with DHT. https://hackstasis.com/threads/a-protocol-based-on-csf-steroid-levels.1424/

 

[bruschi11]

Welp... our amazingly motivational friend Chi over on Propeciahelp found a way to make GHB at home.

Ummm maybe we can all start doing so? Anyone have a nice tutorial??? Stuff is so expensive on black market.

Secondly.. Mirtazapine/remeron. This is an antidepressant that I used last year. It definitely increases ALLO and immediately when I went on this last year- nocturnal erections, ability to achieve erection improved drastically.

There are guys that have used mirtazapine in past who have come off to doing quite a bit better. For instance, there was a cop in England who was in mental asylum, worst of worst mental symptoms. He spoke of his impending suicide on PH all the time.

He went on mirtazapine and worked on health for awhile and eventually all mental symptoms were gone and he was able to stop the drug.

@Concerned how is mirtazapine going for you?

Protein digestion/EAAs thus far has been best thing for me in terms of sexual Pfs. Which makes sense as what you describe above. But obviously, when mental, physical issues are much better, I get much stronger effect from them.

For mental, physical issues. Like chi, working on immunity, clearing pathogens, toxins etc. has been best thing for me. But again the protein digestion/EAAs give more sense of normality, stronger cortisol (stress response).

I feel like it’s a no brainer that a portion of this community would do best beginning with a just pure health based protocols like TEI, fasting, cdnuts, strengthening gut health etc.

Then we move to the actual imbalance above Helen describes. It’s painfully obvious that this issue is deep and you gotta put yourself in best place for your body to reverse this thing. If you’re ill with bunch of problems non-pfs, beating pfs seems pretty unreasonable. @wuf @freeflow (cold hands and feet signifies something) @Slayo

Could mirtazapine be substitute for GHB? Increasing 5ar, allo and running DHT derivatives with it?

 

[Admiral]

I'll try the first protocol that pops up here. I'll gladly be the ginny pig.

Also, I have tons of GHB within reach. Hard to see how that could benefit, but I'll try everything.

 

[RebelWithACause]

Buy Phenibut it is a GABA agonist similar to GHB and easy to find. GHB from a dealer you do not know what you are getting.

Take 1000mg Phenibut ED. Then take R-Andro 200-400mg ED with that for a month.

Then get ready for a tough week of withdrawal (insomnia, higher anxiety).

 

[Trump_1776]

Yes , the problem is that NADPH was involved not only in DHT production but in several other hormones.

Thus those people get better but not fully cured. Like Walker. he fixed AR overexpression in DHT sensitive tissues, but he did not fix gaba problem, Thus has PTSD and mental sides.

this is why all people on Cdnuts protocol , jacknap, Walker, they basically have allopregnenolone problem left. and they are running the protocol, but it does nothing for those sides.


I even suspect that herb cycling is not even needed.

Why do you say they have an allopregnelone problem?

 

[barbaar]

Buy Phenibut it is a GABA agonist similar to GHB and easy to find. GHB from a dealer you do not know what you are getting.

Take 1000mg Phenibut ED. Then take R-Andro 200-400mg ED with that for a month.

Then get ready for a tough week of withdrawal (insomnia, higher anxiety).

I heard phenibut withdrawal is hell. I would be very careful running it every day for a month.

 

[Helen]

I'll try the first protocol that pops up here. I'll gladly be the ginny pig.

Also, I have tons of GHB within reach. Hard to see how that could benefit, but I'll try everything.

there is this protocol based on CSF values. no one ran it. https://hackstasis.com/threads/a-protocol-based-on-csf-steroid-levels.1424/