Post Accutane - Oily skin

[Orion]

If this oil stuff from prolactin. lets try to lower prolactin with active b6 vitamin. Take like 20-50 of it and lets see how you do.

Ok I do have active B6 on hand, will test out taking 20-50. How long would be a good test? 1 week?

 

[nonsense]

I was looking at histamine today as I have similar problems - very oily hair and face and some kind of dermatitis on the face (beard area) and PE since PSSD.

I stumbled upon luteolin - a flavonoid mast cell inhibitor which apparently is a progesterone receptor antagonist and estrogen receptor agonist ( Endocrine disrupting activities of the flavonoid nutraceuticals luteolin and quercetin ) Would this perhaps be something worth experimenting with?

Lastly - I saw some people claiming they use histidine to deal with high histamine. Perhaps some paradoxical effect in play?

 

[Orion]

Is the oiliness and acne primarily on the face? Or do you get it on your body as well?

gbolduev posted the link to an early comment, but can confirm oiliness was really bad on face and scalp, but also upper chest, back and neck. Long fast has diminished it greatly and still holding it off, with only a slight return. So was experimenting with histidine and it seemed to make it worse, so showing that there could be a link to high histamine and sebum production.

 

[Orion]

Lastly - I saw some people claiming they use histidine to deal with high histamine. Perhaps some paradoxical effect in play?

This is why I tried histidine, swear I read somewhere that histidine would lower histamine production... but does seem to have the opposite affect on me, actually increasing oiliness.

 

[Orion]

Only when I eat less it gets less oily like if I just eat rice and veggies.

Long fast definitely reduced oiliness bigtime, seems that excess sugar/carbs increases oiliness.

 

[hello]

This is why I tried histidine, swear I read somewhere that histidine would lower histamine production... but does seem to have the opposite affect on me, actually increasing oiliness.

Synthesis and metabolism
Histamine is derived from the decarboxylation of the amino acid histidine, a reaction catalyzed by the enzyme L-histidine decarboxylase. It is a hydrophilic vasoactive amine.

Conversion of histidine to histamine by histidine decarboxylase
Once formed, histamine is either stored or rapidly inactivated by its primary degradative enzymes, histamine-N-methyltransferase or diamine oxidase. In the central nervous system, histamine released into the synapses is primarily broken down by histamine-N-methyltransferase, while in other tissues both enzymes may play a role. Several other enzymes, including MAO-B and ALDH2, further process the immediate metabolites of histamine for excretion or recycling.
Bacteria also are capable of producing histamine using histidine decarboxylase enzymes unrelated to those found in animals. A non-infectious form of foodborne disease, scombroid poisoning, is due to histamine production by bacteria in spoiled food, particularly fish. Fermented foods and beverages naturally contain small quantities of histamine due to a similar conversion performed by fermenting bacteria or yeasts. Sake contains histamine in the 20–40 mg/L range; wines contain it in the 2–10 mg/L range.[11]

 

[Canari]

Long fast definitely reduced oiliness bigtime, seems that excess sugar/carbs increases oiliness.

When I was 21, I "cured" my boyfriend of his acnea by removing all sugar and dairies! He was convinced quick and after 1 month the change was increadible. Starting all meals except breakfast with a salad.... We still had quite a lot carbs, we were students....

 

[Orion]

removing all sugar and dairies

Ray Peat has raised his eyebrows

 

[Canari]

Ray Peat has raised his eyebrows

i miss the smiley rolling on the floor with fists beating....

Actually, it seems possible to have sugars if starch is removed! The worse dessert seems to be a rice cake with caramel and cooked in milk... or worse with coucous, so you also get the gluten....

 

[mattyb]

Does anyone know what the catalytic center of retinaldehyde dehydrogenase is? I can't find that info anywhere. I'm thinking that is the problem here but I am not sure.

 

[mattyb]

I found my answer. It's glutamate for a protein. Some sources say a metal is present but I can't find out which one. Anyway, here is what I am thinking.

If Accutane completely clears up Orion's skin, it does so by upregulating retinoid receptor activity. This would cause the body to compensate by downregulating upstream pathways like beta carotene or retinol pathways. This would decrease retinol, retinaldehyde, retinoic acid, and retinyl ester synthesis while keeping retinoid receptors stimulated.

In Orion's case, he said that Accutane decreased body temps when he went off of it. One promoter of thermogenesis is retinaldehyde. I would guess that Accutane decreases retinaldehyde formation, which would decrease temps (especially when you go off the drug when retinoid receptor activity is low, and temps would raise when retinaldehyde levels go back up again).

So I am thinking something along that pathway is stuck and too many intermediates are being formed and our end product of retinoic acid isn't getting there. One supplement stack to support this pathway would be retinol, zinc, glutamate and niacin - this would support every step of the pathway (except maybe our possible missing metal in RALDH). Retinoid receptor activity increases with increasing exposure to it's substrate (retinoic acid), so the principle of contrarian endocrinology doesn't apply here. You need to maximize retinoic acid synthesis to maximize receptor activity. Some application of cold exposure along with this supplement stack could potentially work as well.

Anyway, these are just ideas. I'm not sure if this would work, but if I had to try something I would go with retinol + zinc + glutamate + niacin for a week or two and see how it works out.

Orion, how does your skin react to cold exposure - more or less oiliness?

 

[Helen]

@mattyb

I posted retinol pathway before. There are 2 enzymes ALDH and AO , who do this. ALDH has cysteine as a crytical part , glutamate not as important. NAD, and AO has magnesium, b2, molybdenum. Both of them do this conversion.

Plus there is liver breaking enzymes for accutaine , which are 450p enzymes. those could be also problematic here.

"Same thing with accutane people. Accutane is an active vitamin A, it is retinoic acid. it by passes all the regulations in retonoid pathway. Now go and see what is in retinoic pathway, ZINC takes retinol and converts to retinal, then you need NAD then you need aldehyde enzymes to convert it further down to retinoic acid. Accutane bypasses all of this. This tanks your zinc, NAD, b2, molybdenum, magnesium , b6. Same exact things needed for 3 beta hsd. Retinoic acid is what produces progesterone."

This is my quote to him from before. He took all this pathway

I think it is beyond this pathway though, it causes huge ceruloplasmin SPIKE , HUGE

 

[Orion]

Anyway, these are just ideas. I'm not sure if this would work, but if I had to try something I would go with retinol + zinc + glutamate + niacin for a week or two and see how it works out.

Orion, how does your skin react to cold exposure - more or less oiliness?

Thanks mattyb, but I have tried all those in the past with no affect. Only things that have worked are actual accutane, and high dose B5, those blunt sebum production, but of course have there own side effects.

Two things that also greatly increase my oiliness, which I have tested are; biotin and isocort (cortef, cortisol). Now it seems that third; histidine can be added to the list.


I ordered some methionine to test with, and will start 1mg copper, as gbolduev suggested, I have not tested these before, to lower histamine.

 

[mattyb]

You have tried the full stack together and nothing? That's unfortunate.

Have you ever had your triglycerides/cholesterol measured? What about estrogen?

 

[Orion]

You have tried the full stack together and nothing? That's unfortunate.

Have you ever had your triglycerides/cholesterol measured? What about estrogen?

Yep done those as a stack, also done the mega doses of retinol, tried up to 500K/day, did nothing for oiliness.

Its been awhile since I have tested triglycerides/cholesterol, but they were within normal ranges when done. Never had estrogen tested.

Just want to add that the long fast has cured this for the most part, just want to keep it sticking, and actually eliminate the oiliness for good. Skin a lot less oily, but not completely, its enough that I am sure I will get start getting plugged pores.


Just did my chronometer for that last couple days, and it seems that I am covering all the micros and macros, except maybe needing some extra B1, copper and zinc. Even histidine, cysteine, methionine and glycine, basically all the aminos are covered.

 

[mattyb]

The protein requirements on cronometer are not reliable, FYI. They are way too low.

Maybe you could just do a 24-hour fast one day per week? I wonder if that would be sufficient to control oiliness. Maybe all you need to do is get NAD+ production up, the best way to do that is fast. I don't see any issue with 24-hour fasts once per week. I know lots of guys in the fitness community who did that for years with no problems.

 

[tanedout]

The protein requirements on cronometer are not reliable, FYI. They are way too low.

Maybe you could just do a 24-hour fast one day per week? I wonder if that would be sufficient to control oiliness. Maybe all you need to do is get NAD+ production up, the best way to do that is fast. I don't see any issue with 24-hour fasts once per week. I know lots of guys in the fitness community who did that for years with no problems.

Probably a good chance this would help with oily skin. I did a 24 hour fast 1 day per week for about 6 weeks straight and this made my skin much less oily (oily skin isn't really an issue for me, but I'm also post-accutane). Along with less oily skin I found my hair went very dry and brittle and quick a lot of hair would come out when styling it, so I stopped doing the 1 day per week fasts.

 

[Orion]

The protein requirements on cronometer are not reliable, FYI. They are way too low.

Maybe you could just do a 24-hour fast one day per week? I wonder if that would be sufficient to control oiliness. Maybe all you need to do is get NAD+ production up, the best way to do that is fast. I don't see any issue with 24-hour fasts once per week. I know lots of guys in the fitness community who did that for years with no problems.

That is my plan, currently doing the 18hr fast, 6hr feed IF everyday. We be adding in the one 24hr fast every weekend after the holidays.

Also will have one 14 day water fast every May and one 21-28 day Breuss fast every October.

 

[Orion]

Probably a good chance this would help with oily skin. I did a 24 hour fast 1 day per week for about 6 weeks straight and this made my skin much less oily (oily skin isn't really an issue for me, but I'm also post-accutane). Along with less oily skin I found my hair went very dry and brittle and quick a lot of hair would come out when styling it, so I stopped doing the 1 day per week fasts.

So less oily skin but increased hair shedding? always a catch-22...

 

[mattyb]

That is my plan, currently doing the 18hr fast, 6hr feed IF everyday. We be adding in the one 24hr fast every weekend after the holidays.

Also will have one 14 day water fast every May and one 21-28 day Breuss fast every October.

I don't think it's smart doubling up on IF and 24-hour fasts. Pick one or the other, whichever is more effective for you.

Fasting is a good tool, but it can cause strain. If you start exercising as well, with all this fasting and the stresses of everyday life, you will crash eventually. That's what happened to me.