Post Accutane - Oily skin

[mattyb]

Probably a good chance this would help with oily skin. I did a 24 hour fast 1 day per week for about 6 weeks straight and this made my skin much less oily (oily skin isn't really an issue for me, but I'm also post-accutane). Along with less oily skin I found my hair went very dry and brittle and quick a lot of hair would come out when styling it, so I stopped doing the 1 day per week fasts.

Well it really is the easiest way to synthesize NAD+, so it makes sense. You can take all the niacin you want, but that will just put more pressure on cofactors and NAD+ production will be limited.

 

[tanedout]

So less oily skin but increased hair shedding? always a catch-22...

Yep exactly that, skin much drier, but hair become dry also, like straw, and I noticed lots of hairs coming out when drying or styling. Stopped as a result.

 

[Orion]

I don't think it's smart doubling up on IF and 24-hour fasts. Pick one or the other, whichever is more effective for you.

Fasting is a good tool, but it can cause strain. If you start exercising as well, with all this fasting and the stresses of everyday life, you will crash eventually. That's what happened to me.

Thanks, good info, I will keep that in mind.

 

[mattyb]

I don't think it's smart doubling up on IF and 24-hour fasts. Pick one or the other, whichever is more effective for you.

Fasting is a good tool, but it can cause strain. If you start exercising as well, with all this fasting and the stresses of everyday life, you will crash eventually. That's what happened to me.

Just to clarify, about 5-7 years ago I was doing IF, 24-hour fasts, and some 3-5 day fasts. While training for weightlifting competitions. I eventually got so burned out, I would fall asleep after meals, I was always getting sick, stopped making progress in my lifts, and was super drained most of the time. I had no health issues outside of this, but I wasn't doing great. I started Peating and got way better for a little bit, then dived deeper into that and got much worse but in a totally different way (problems with skin, digestion, sex drive, and anxiety).

There's a happy middle ground between the two approaches somewhere in the middle there. It's all about balance and moderation in the end.

 

[Orion]

Just to clarify, about 5-7 years ago I was doing IF, 24-hour fasts, and some 3-5 day fasts. While training for weightlifting competitions. I eventually got so burned out, I would fall asleep after meals, I was always getting sick, stopped making progress in my lifts, and was super drained most of the time. I had no health issues outside of this, but I wasn't doing great. I started Peating and got way better for a little bit, then dived deeper into that and got much worse but in a totally different way (problems with skin, digestion, sex drive, and anxiety).

There's a happy middle ground between the two approaches somewhere in the middle there. It's all about balance and moderation in the end.

I was doing thing same thing around 2010 as well(just after my last accutane round), long fasts, combined with low carb and zero carb, it destroyed me, but it did help reduce oiliness, but lost muscle mass, sleep was horrible, personality was very off, and getting cold/flus all the time. Oh and the hair shedding started...

 

[Orion]

@mattyb so if histamine, biotin or cortisol increase sebum, and retinoic acid(accutane) or B5(pantothenic acid) stop sebum, where do this intersect, what is the middle ground of these interactions.

There is a new molecule, that inhibits sebum, and is a inhibitor of acetyl coenzyme A (CoA) carboxylase (ACC), which is the way B5 supposedly works as well.

Inhibition of Sebum Production with the Acetyl Coenzyme A Carboxylase Inhibitor Olumacostat Glasaretil. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[mattyb]

Retinoids inhibit histamine secretion - and I know first hand that antihistamines cause dry skin. Biotin is a cofactor for acetyl coA carboxylase - so it's an indirect promoter of sebum. Retinoid receptors have actions on acetyl coA carboxylase that involve possible inhibition, but it seems to differ varying on RA subtype, and it might be different in skin cells - so there is a connection but I'm not sure on exactly what that is right now. I think the connection between all of these is regulation of retinoid receptor activity. Not sure how B5 plays into it yet, haven't looked into it, but excessive B5 and biotin is associated with genetic instability, and retinoid receptors are nuclear so therefore rely on genetic stability for function.

I don't think it's safe to say cortisol increases sebum. Otherwise sebum would get worse on a fast when cortisol is sky-high. Sebum excretion isn't higher in kids who are stressed out, but the stress will worsen their acne.

 

[Orion]

Retinoids inhibit histamine secretion - and I know first hand that antihistamines cause dry skin. Biotin is a cofactor for acetyl coA carboxylase - so it's an indirect promoter of sebum. Retinoid receptors have actions on acetyl coA carboxylase that involve possible inhibition, but it seems to differ varying on RA subtype, and it might be different in skin cells - so there is a connection but I'm not sure on exactly what that is right now. I think the connection between all of these is regulation of retinoid receptor activity. Not sure how B5 plays into it yet, haven't looked into it, but excessive B5 and biotin is associated with genetic instability, and retinoid receptors are nuclear so therefore rely on genetic stability for function.

I don't think it's safe to say cortisol increases sebum. Otherwise sebum would get worse on a fast when cortisol is sky-high. Sebum excretion isn't higher in kids who are stressed out, but the stress will worsen their acne.

Coppers involvement with histamine breakdown could be important then? I will try some extra copper the few days and see how I react, 1mg to 2mg per day. Could be like gbolduev mentioned, that copper is up or down regulated after accutane...

Could high cortisol causes copper wasting? From wikipedia:

Cortisol stimulates many copper enzymes (often to 50% of their total potential), probably to increase copper availability for immune purposes.[13]:337 This includes lysyl oxidase, an enzyme that cross-links collagen, and elastin.[13]:334 Especially valuable for immune response is cortisol's stimulation of the superoxide dismutase,[14] since this copper enzyme is almost certainly used by the body to permit superoxides to poison bacteria.

 

[mattyb]

You can try the copper. I am very skeptical that it will work though. Inhibiting histamine isn't what we really care about here, we want the nexus that regulates everything - which is retinoid receptors/retinoic acid. Histamine is just one thing retinoic acid regulates.

I think you need to upregulate retinoic acid pathway, and that ultimately this is a NAD+ dependent process where NAD+ is the limiting factor here. We want the effects of Accutane without the Accutane or it's side effects. I think we get there by increasing NAD+.

If the acne hasn't actually come back yet, I would try out the weekly 24-hour fasts (with a good diet and all RDAs met on most regular eating days) and see if that is enough to regulate sebum production and keep acne at bay. We know fasting worked for you before. Why not find a way to integrate it into your lifestyle? Seems like a very reliable choice. Some people even do a 3-5 day fast every month. That could be another option.

Persistent 18/6 IF is not the greatest IMO, and I've never found evidence that it actually raises NAD+ if you're not also doing caloric restriction alongside it. The bulk of research on intermittent fasting is not on isocaloric 18/6 IF, but more often alternate day fasting or other fasting models not controlling for reduced calorie intake. My master's thesis was specifically on daily 18/6 style intermittent fasting, and the literature was very sparse on it back then (I don't imagine there's been that much more research on it in the last few years). 18/6 daily fasting can be useful for other issues (e.g. cortisol insensitivity), but it only addresses a limited amount of issues.

 

[Orion]

You can try the copper. I am very skeptical that it will work though. Inhibiting histamine isn't what we really care about here, we want the nexus that regulates everything - which is retinoid receptors/retinoic acid. Histamine is just one thing retinoic acid regulates.

I think you need to upregulate retinoic acid pathway, and that ultimately this is a NAD+ dependent process where NAD+ is the limiting factor here. We want the effects of Accutane without the Accutane or it's side effects. I think we get there by increasing NAD+.

If the acne hasn't actually come back yet, I would try out the weekly 24-hour fasts (with a good diet and all RDAs met on most regular eating days) and see if that is enough to regulate sebum production and keep acne at bay. We know fasting worked for you before. Why not find a way to integrate it into your lifestyle? Seems like a very reliable choice. Some people even do a 3-5 day fast every month. That could be another option.

Persistent 18/6 IF is not the greatest IMO, and I've never found evidence that it actually raises NAD+ if you're not also doing caloric restriction alongside it. The bulk of research on intermittent fasting is not on isocaloric 18/6 IF, but more often alternate day fasting or other fasting models not controlling for reduced calorie intake. My master's thesis was specifically on daily 18/6 style intermittent fasting, and the literature was very sparse on it back then (I don't imagine there's been that much more research on it in the last few years). 18/6 daily fasting can be useful for other issues (e.g. cortisol insensitivity), but it only addresses a limited amount of issues.

Good stuff, so longer fasting is the number one way to increase NAD+, what are some secondary and tertiary ways, etc in your opinion to combine which this?

 

[Orion]

@mattyb @gbolduev OK tried 1mg copper yesterday, and it caused night sweats, like woke up soaked in sweat in the middle of the night... good sign or bad sign?

 

[mattyb]

@mattyb @gbolduev OK tried 1mg copper yesterday, and it caused night sweats, like woke up soaked in sweat in the middle of the night... good sign or bad sign?

Gonna go with bad haha.

As for your earlier question, any form of caloric restriction will raise NAD+. The period of CR just needs to be long enough, and there's been plenty of research showing that a 24 hour fast is enough to upregulate NAD+ dependent enzymes in most animal models. I would assume it would be similar in humans, although if you wanted to hedge your bets you could do 36 hours instead since humans don't experience time like mice or feed as frequently. The other option would be prolonged CR, but that's not as maintainable in the long run. Exercise can help raise NAD+ as well.

 

[Orion]

Gonna go with bad haha.

As for your earlier question, any form of caloric restriction will raise NAD+. The period of CR just needs to be long enough, and there's been plenty of research showing that a 24 hour fast is enough to upregulate NAD+ dependent enzymes in most animal models. I would assume it would be similar in humans, although if you wanted to hedge your bets you could do 36 hours instead since humans don't experience time like mice or feed as frequently. The other option would be prolonged CR, but that's not as maintainable in the long run. Exercise can help raise NAD+ as well.

From some quick reading, I am assuming the copper is driving estrogen, and that is the cause of night sweats. I have never sweated like that during sleep, not even from a fever. Skin does seem drying though, I might just do 1mg copper for a couple days. I wonder if copper with some DHT, would be the same as the estrogen/resveratrol/DHT protocol?

Thanks for the NAD+ feedback, I am back to full time strength training. The long fast definitely drained strength, but feels like it will come back quickly with the sessions I have done so far. I think I will move away from daily IF, to weekend fasts(36hr) that seems more doable and easier.

 

[Helen]

@Orion

Copper always made me sweat like this at first when I took it

I told you to take copper together with things. Not just copper.

Also if copper does not work, try b6 with zinc.


can you please post your hairtest here again

 

[Orion]

@Orion

Copper always made me sweat like this at first when I took it

I told you to take copper together with things. Not just copper.

Also if copper does not work, try b6 with zinc.


can you please post your hairtest here again

I am only missing methionine, should arrive early next week, I took the rest of this stack and been eating lots of seafood, eggs to up protein;

Lower Histamine: Copper, Methionine, Potassium, Magnesium and Selenium (case: copper deficiency).


This is my hairtest from ~1yr ago, so might not be accurate to my current stat, with lots of RP'ing after, then the short and long breuss fasts.

https://imgur.com/a/oPvjl

 

[HerrFisch]

This is why I tried histidine, swear I read somewhere that histidine would lower histamine production... but does seem to have the opposite affect on me, actually increasing oiliness.

Effects of various compounds on histidine decarboxylase activity: active site mapping. - PubMed - NCBI

"The effect of about one hundred compounds on the activity of histidine decarboxylase partially purified from whole bodies of fetal rats was determined. Most of them at their 10 mM concentration had little effect on the enzyme activity; but 12 compounds inhibited the enzyme to a greater extent than 30%. Among these, except for alpha-methylhistidine that has been known to be a strong and specific inhibitor, DOPA, homocysteine, cysteine, methionine and urocanic acid were the best inhibitors; beta-phenyllactic acid, phenylpyruvic acid and carnosine were less strong inhibitors; valine, oxaloacetic acid and N tau-methylimidazole acetic acid were weak inhibitors. Histamine had no inhibitory action. Thus, the substrate binding site of histidine decarboxylase is very rigid and specific for L-histidine."

But NAC releases histamine from the mast cell.
Histamine secretion induced by N-acetyl cysteine. - PubMed - NCBI

cortisol inhibits hdc too

 

[Aleksandr]

This is why I tried histidine, swear I read somewhere that histidine would lower histamine production... but does seem to have the opposite affect on me, actually increasing oiliness.

Did you try cysteine instead?

Edit: i see youre doing a similar protocol to lower histidine now. Will be cool to see how it goes!

If my hair test doesnt show improvement the next retest i do, i will start a similar protocol for fast oxidation.

 

[Aleksandr]

Just to clarify, about 5-7 years ago I was doing IF, 24-hour fasts, and some 3-5 day fasts. While training for weightlifting competitions. I eventually got so burned out, I would fall asleep after meals, I was always getting sick, stopped making progress in my lifts, and was super drained most of the time. I had no health issues outside of this, but I wasn't doing great. I started Peating and got way better for a little bit, then dived deeper into that and got much worse but in a totally different way (problems with skin, digestion, sex drive, and anxiety).

There's a happy middle ground between the two approaches somewhere in the middle there. It's all about balance and moderation in the end.

What are some of the signs you need to fast more?

Some of the signs you need to peat (lets say, eat and rest) more?

 

[Aleksandr]

Coppers involvement with histamine breakdown could be important then? I will try some extra copper the few days and see how I react, 1mg to 2mg per day. Could be like gbolduev mentioned, that copper is up or down regulated after accutane...

Could high cortisol causes copper wasting? From wikipedia:

Cortisol stimulates many copper enzymes (often to 50% of their total potential), probably to increase copper availability for immune purposes.[13]:337 This includes lysyl oxidase, an enzyme that cross-links collagen, and elastin.[13]:334 Especially valuable for immune response is cortisol's stimulation of the superoxide dismutase,[14] since this copper enzyme is almost certainly used by the body to permit superoxides to poison bacteria.

Just to add another thought;

Teenagers often get lots of acne. It is said that most young people are fast oxidisers, which are usually low in copper (generally seems to be good to supp magnesium, potassium, copper... which produces methionine anyway as gbold said).

I wonder the diffeence here between a child (lets say 10yo) vs a teenager (15yo). Why does one get acne and the other doesnt? Maybe because the 15yo has fast oxidation + really high sex hormones, and its the combination of the two.

Maybe acne is a symptom of fast oxidation + sex hormones?

 

[Orion]

Effects of various compounds on histidine decarboxylase activity: active site mapping. - PubMed - NCBI

"The effect of about one hundred compounds on the activity of histidine decarboxylase partially purified from whole bodies of fetal rats was determined. Most of them at their 10 mM concentration had little effect on the enzyme activity; but 12 compounds inhibited the enzyme to a greater extent than 30%. Among these, except for alpha-methylhistidine that has been known to be a strong and specific inhibitor, DOPA, homocysteine, cysteine, methionine and urocanic acid were the best inhibitors; beta-phenyllactic acid, phenylpyruvic acid and carnosine were less strong inhibitors; valine, oxaloacetic acid and N tau-methylimidazole acetic acid were weak inhibitors. Histamine had no inhibitory action. Thus, the substrate binding site of histidine decarboxylase is very rigid and specific for L-histidine."

But NAC releases histamine from the mast cell.
Histamine secretion induced by N-acetyl cysteine. - PubMed - NCBI

cortisol inhibits hdc too

Thanks @HerrFisch will be testing with methionine next week when it arrives, so far copper seems to helping.