Ulcerative Colitis / IBD

[Canari]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="2445" time="1508767293" user_id="95"><s>

</s>The current paradigm of autoimmune diseases is that it's due to an unknown dysfunction in the immune system. Nobody is looking at it like the immune system is just reacting normally to damage, which I think is stupid. <e>

</e></QUOTE>
The immune system only works properly in a parasympathetic state, and will not work well if the parasympathetic state is only apparent as a calm behaviour, but with an underlying activated sympathetic system. <br/>
<br/>
The immune system can also react normally to a false information. Maybe when the system is in panic from feeling an attack, it does like a panicked soldier: fire everywhere and god will recognize them... <br/>
<br/>
There is no existing theory about this yet?</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="Canari" post_id="2448" time="1508770717" user_id="62"><s>

</s>
<br/>
The immune system only works properly in a parasympathetic state, and will not work well if the parasympathetic state is only apparent as a calm behaviour, but with an underlying activated sympathetic system. <br/>
<br/>
The immune system can also react normally to a false information. Maybe when the system is in panic from feeling an attack, it does like a panicked soldier: fire everywhere and god will recognize them... <br/>
<br/>
There is no existing theory about this yet?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Not yet. I am writing a paper now, and am hoping to send it in for publishing in Spring or Summer of 2018.</r>

 

[jaa]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="903" time="1507656754" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
Also, one last thing - why do you think old people almost never get autoimmune diseases despite having higher levels of auto-reactive t-cells?<br/>
<br/>
Because their metabolism sucks. Inflammatory diseases are young people diseases. You need an overactive metabolism for them to happen.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Isn't psoriasis more likely to develop in older people? Is there something else at work there?</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="jaa" post_id="2474" time="1508780093" user_id="1352"><s>

</s>
<br/>
Isn't psoriasis more likely to develop in older people? Is there something else at work there?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

There are two peaks of onset for psoriasis. 20-30 years old and 50-60 years old, and psoriasis in the elderly often presents differently than psoriasis in the young.</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="2444" time="1508766813" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
Hey sorry, forgot to reply to your earlier post. <br/>
<br/>
But yes, excessive mitochondrial fission can be caused by mitochondrial defects. I think that is the case more often in degenerative diseases of aging like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. As we age defects are much more likely to pop up in the respiratory chain.<br/>
<br/>
I think in the case of autoimmune conditions developed in younger years, it's much more likely that certain stressors (radiation, metals, etc.) stimulates mitochondria to create excess ATP and ROS, and this sets off a signalling cascade that enhances mitochondrial fission, which further enhances ROS generation, and eventually causes mitochondrial defects (I also think the nutrient demand raises at this point, and a lack of nutrients could lead to defects as well). Then this further enhances ROS, and you have this vicious cycle going on and on indefinitely.<br/>
<br/>
I have started mapping some pathways for how things like ionizing radiation can directly stimulate mitochondrial fission. I think ionizing radiation can alter disulfide bond formation in protein structure and this may be a signal to the mitochondria to begin fission. We know that ionizing radiation can create disulfide radicals and break disulfide bonds, and disulfide bonds are extremely common in the inner mitochondrial membrane. The primary mitochondrial transport protein's (TIM23) function is reliant on a disulfide bond. The endoplasmic reticulum, which also controls mitochondrial fission, is literally lined with mostly oxidized thiol groups and it's primary function is in disulfide bond function - and we know the ER stress response is activated in response to things like ionizing radiation. I don't think the exact mechanism has been figured out by anyone yet, so I am trying to figure it out.<br/>
<br/>
I do think excess copper could definitely make things worse, along with many other heavy metals. Things like lead, iron, copper, tin, aluminum, etc. are all reactive and can enhance ROS function. I think if toxicity is quite high and chronic it could possibly be an inciting event, especially when coupled with environmental radiation exposure (solar flares, x-rays, etc.).
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

OK if that would be at the start of an autoimmune condition, then remission would be just a small break where the bodys produces so low ROS that its possible to clean up all. <br/>
<br/>
Is it proven that there are no problems in cleaning up (normal amouts) ROS etc? <br/>
<br/>
Otherwise according to all this information a cure would be possible. And I understand how fasting would play a role in that. <br/>
But I do hard to understand how after fasting with a again increasing number of mitochondria it would not lead again to increased fission. <br/>
<br/>
Once in remission, then somehow get to repair defect mitochondria (if thats possible? maybe by increasing fusion) + eliminate the stressor that started everything. Wouldnt that help get out of that circle? (+helping remove ROS w/ glutathione etc)</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="2590" time="1508879915" user_id="114"><s>

</s>
<br/>
OK if that would be at the start of an autoimmune condition, then remission would be just a small break where the bodys produces so low ROS that its possible to clean up all. <br/>
<br/>
Is it proven that there are no problems in cleaning up (normal amouts) ROS etc? <br/>
<br/>
Otherwise according to all this information a cure would be possible. And I understand how fasting would play a role in that. <br/>
But I do hard to understand how after fasting with a again increasing number of mitochondria it would not lead again to increased fission. <br/>
<br/>
Once in remission, then somehow get to repair defect mitochondria (if thats possible? maybe by increasing fusion) + eliminate the stressor that started everything. Wouldnt that help get out of that circle? (+helping remove ROS w/ glutathione etc)
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Yes. Remission would happen when metabolism is decreased, ROS is low, and when environmental stressors are less intense - ultimately resulting in a decrease in mitochondrial count. But as soon as some or all of those increase, you get another flare up.<br/>
<br/>
No problem in cleaning up ROS in the long run, as long as they stop getting made faster than they can be neutralized. I have never found any evidence otherwise. I think certain drugs and minerals could help accelerate this process, like ebselen, zinc, manganese, magnesium, maybe even copper. Some dietary antioxidants may be useful as well. <br/>
<br/>
Here is kind of the order of operations that could potentially lead to a full cure (not just remission)<br/>
<br/>
1.<br/>
Fasting. Lots of water, possibly Breuss style would be okay. Possibly things like zeolite and charcoal could be useful to help chelate heavy metals faster. <MENTION><s>[mention]</s>gbolduev<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> would know more about those. Duration of fast should be equal to the severity of the condition (as long as 40 days). <br/>
- Goal: Inhibit mitochondrial fission, stimulate mitochondrial fusion, allow preliminary "clean up" processes to happen like mitophagy and autophagy of defective cells/mitochondria, chelate heavy metals, toxins, viruses, bacteria, and fungi. <br/>
<br/>
2. <br/>
Slow re-introduction to foods, focusing on nutrients that enhance natural antioxidative mechanisms and foods unlikely to carry a digestive burden or introduce toxins. I've made an outline elsewhere about the slow re-introduction of foods after a prolonged fast. Aim for well sourced food. <br/>
- Goal: Stimulate regeneration of natural antioxidant system and damaged tissues while controlling rate of mitochondrial fission with caloric restriction.<br/>
<br/>
3.<br/>
Avoid psychosocial stress and physical environmental triggers while building resilience to said stressors. Some stressors (like solar flares) are unavoidable, so it would be best to do this around times where solar weather is predicted to be at a minimum (yes, you can look this up on many solar weather websites <URL url="http://www.spaceweather.gc.ca/forecast-prevision/long/sflt-1-en.php"><s></s>like this<e></e></URL>). You should identify any stressors before even starting this process at all, so when it comes time to get to this phase you are ready and know what to work on.<br/>
- Goal: Support physical healing process. Develop good habits around sleep, stress management, and exercise. Do not introduce anything abruptly and sharply. Process should be gentle. I think once Ebselen is approved (in a few years) this drug could help build up a defense against physical stressors during this phase. Stress arrests cells in G2/M phase, which is when they are most susceptible to damage and relapse is most likely to occur. So you have to know how to deal with and overcome stress, not just minimize it. Because stress will always be there to a degree.<br/>
<br/>
4. <br/>
Maintain with occasional fasts, exercise, well balanced diet, and stress management. <br/>
- Goal: Avoid getting sick again.</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

Yeah fasting seems really good for IBDs. Going to do that in near future.

matty
What do you think about sodium butyrate?
Apparently it lowers / inhibits DRP1 and increases mitochondrial fusion / decreases fission.

https://hackstasis.com/forums/-/list

http://gut.bmj.com/content/56/11/1543.short

https://hackstasis.com/forums/-/list

https://hackstasis.com/forums/-/list

And Niacinamide apparently does use the same receptor

https://augusta.pure.elsevier.com/e...c-inflammation-by-butyrateniacin-receptor-gpr

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

https://hackstasis.com/forums/-/list

That article is crazy

To regulate the destructive effects of RONS, vital tissues are equipped with an intricate antioxidant defense system. These antioxidant control systems consist of enzymes such as SOD, CAT, GPx and peroxiredoxins [52], as well as antioxidant compounds, like α-tocopherol, β-carotene, vitamin C, GSH, bilirubin, urate, zinc, selenium and copper [53]. When this system fails, OS occurs [12].

Acetyl L carnitine on apoptosis and fission
https://hackstasis.com/forums/-/list

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>That is some seriously awesome stuff you posted. <br/>
<br/>
The BMJ article showing down-regulated thiolase activity really fits with my idea that some stressors like ionizing radiation may impact thiol and cysteine dependent processes (like thiolase). I am going to explore this more. <br/>
<br/>
The sodium butyrate angle seems interesting. But that study is in cancer cells, and it's unclear from the abstract whether DRP-1 was decreased because of apoptosis, or that it led to apoptosis. Some cancer lines also have enhanced capacity for fusion, which helps them survive longer - so it's unclear how it could all fit together. I will look into butyrate some more.</t>

 

[Memento]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Hi HerrFisch! Do you know if there are any indications in your maternal lineage towards possible mitochondrial problems?<br/>
<br/>
Thank you mattyb for the explanation on page 7 of fission/ROS. I suppose similar mechanism might play a role in my case. I clearly have inherited my problems from maternal side, which could point to inherited dysfunctional mitochondria?</t>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>No, not that I would know about. <MENTION><s>[mention]</s>Memento<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
But my aunt on the paternal site got some similar IBD, Crohns. <br/>
<br/>
Thank you <MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
Im excited! <E></E></r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>What do you think about well known UC / IBD treatments like <br/>
<br/>
-Probiotics<br/>
-Curcumin / Tumeric<br/>
-Omega 3 FA<br/>
-Folate<br/>
-D3<br/>
-Niacinamide<br/>
-Calcium<br/>
-Fiber (physillium husks)<br/>
-Glutamine<br/>
-boswellia serrata<br/>
-vitamin e<br/>
<br/>
I think most of them are anti-inflammatory. But some may be working on different ways.<br/>
Do probiotics even work while being in a UC flare / Alkalosis or acidosis? <MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION><br/>
<br/>
I think thats an interessting protocol for UC sufferers. <br/>
<URL url="http://thepowerofpoop.com/briggs-protocol/">http://thepowerofpoop.com/briggs-protocol/</URL><br/>
<br/>
Do you think its Mitochondrial fission -> bad gut microbiota or the other way around bad gut microbiota -> leading to UC ? <br/>
<URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437217/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437217/</URL><br/>
(or are mitochondria microbes themselves? )<br/>
<br/>
This Article about Alzheimer says:<br/>
<br/>
"Further, this level of gut influence over bodily functions occurs because of the sheer number of bacteria and diverse bacteria, which taken together provides for a “strong” message to immune and neural cells. Here again, the macrophage may be central to this communication since being abnormally stimulated and releasing chemical messengers at the wrong time would evoke behavioral anomalies ."<br/>
<br/>
Maybe disturbed / bad gut flora is the reason for increased fission?<br/>
<br/>
What leads to increased fission is still the big question right ?<br/>
<br/>
Maybe one cant escape the increasing "ROS circle" because once increased fission / mitochondria count changes gut flora. <br/>
CU meds lower metabolism and inflammation but dont lead to normal gut flora (balance) ? <br/>
So if there is one next increase in Mito count you go into flare (ROS/circle) faster again.?</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>My thoughts right now on CU: <br/>
<MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> feel free to challenge every thing I say. Those are just thoughts <E></E> <br/>
And its really hard to write down whats in my head^^ sry <br/>
<br/>
-CU starts with stressors in a fast metabolism because fast metabolism = higher gut flora count. But Gut flora composition gets out of balance once. (example 60 good 40 bad). <br/>
<br/>
-Those 40% /40 bad lead to "ROS circle" which one cant get out easily. <br/>
<br/>
-By slowing down metabolism (= lower gut flora count) there are less "bad" that keep increasing metabolism/gut flora to the extend. [fission] (6 good 4 bad) <br/>
But the percentage of bad to good is still there, what keeps CU "alive". (60/40%)<br/>
<br/>
-So the next time increasing metabolism, youll get to 40 bad fast. <br/>
<br/>
Goal: <br/>
Lower Metabolism / gut flora count -> lower bad % count.<br/>
<br/>
-If you keep going from high to low count of gut flora count /mito count with medication but still remain the 60/40 percentage in gut flora, nothing changes but the inflammation part. <br/>
<br/>
-Antibiotics as well only change the general count from high to low, but dont change the ratios. <br/>
-Antibiotics may even change the ratio from normal "healthy" 100% balance to some bad balance. <br/>
<br/>
-Maybe thats why probiotics only help a bit in Remission,but while flare its like pouring water into the see? <br/>
<br/>
-And CU is more often present in fast(normal) metabolism because most people in low metabolism (older people or downregulated because of diseases like thyroid, adrenals...) dont get back up in fast metabolism without solving their own problems? <br/>
<br/>
-So older people having a bad 60%/40% ratio would only get UC/ fission if their metabolism increases what does not happen that easily. <br/>
= thats what the body tries to do as you said people with UC often get other diseases that "help" keep metabolism down.(thyroid etc) <br/>
<br/>
-Low metabolism like a break for mitochondria fission & therefore a short time cure for CU [Remisson]<br/>
<br/>
-The worse the ratio, the easier one gets into a flare. <br/>
-Example, ROS circle starts with "bad" count of 20. <br/>
<br/>
Person 1(diagnosed with UC) Ratio 50%/50%. -> High metabolism= 50 good / 50 bad = UC Flare<br/>
-> low metabolism= 5 good / 5 bad = remission <br/>
stress -> low metabolism increases slightly= 20 good / 20 bad = start of UC flare<br/>
<br/>
Person 2 (no UC) Ratio 90%/10% -> High metabolism= 90 good / 10 bad = Perfect (body can handle ROS) <br/>
-> low metabolism= 9 good / 1 bad= Perfect <br/>
With this percentage its not really possible to get to 20 bad. + you are only getting older what would rather slow down metabolism. <br/>
<br/>
So even when you get old and your balance gets bad, your metabolism declines as well what keeps you faar.<br/>
Only possibility is having fast metabolism AND bad Gut bacteria Composition.(for UC to "happen")<br/>
<br/>
Antibiotics are out there used by some for UC<br/>
Stool transplants are out there used by some for UC<br/>
--> Antibiotics + stool transplants ? <COLOR color="#FF0000"><s></s>??<br/>
<e></e></COLOR><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
What I read recently:<br/>
<COLOR color="#BF0000"><s></s><URL url="https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-016-0303-2"><LINK_TEXT text="https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.co ... 016-0303-2">https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-016-0303-2</LINK_TEXT></URL><e></e></COLOR><br/>
<URL url="https://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v77/n1-2/full/pr2014170a.html"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v77/n ... 4170a.html">https://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v77/n1-2/full/pr2014170a.html</LINK_TEXT></URL><br/>
<URL url="http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/59/4/617">http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/59/4/617</URL><br/>
<URL url="https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/a-tiny-tweak-to-gut-bacteria-can-extend-an-animals-life/530364/"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... fe/530364/">https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/a-tiny-tweak-to-gut-bacteria-can-extend-an-animals-life/530364/</LINK_TEXT></URL><br/>
<URL url="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/mitochondria-microbiome-and-their-potential-psychiatric-modulation-2165-7890-1000144.php?aid=58226"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access ... ?aid=58226">https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/mitochondria-microbiome-and-their-potential-psychiatric-modulation-2165-7890-1000144.php?aid=58226</LINK_TEXT></URL><br/>
<br/>
<COLOR color="#BF0000"><s></s>"Shifts in gut microbial composition caused by external factors can result in a dramatic alteration of the symbiotic relationship between gut bacteria and the host, which promotes the development of metabolic diseases. In particular, the gut microbiota is believed to contribute to metabolic diseases via stimulation of low-grade inflammation"<e></e></COLOR></r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><ATTACHMENT filename="qqqqqqq.png" index="0"><s>[attachment=0]</s>qqqqqqq.png<e>[/attachment]</e></ATTACHMENT></r>

 

[Canari]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>She had UC...<br/>
<br/>
<URL url="https://empoweredsustenance.com/about-2/"><s></s>https://empoweredsustenance.com/about-2/<e></e></URL><br/>
<br/>
Good tips IMO, I read a few articles, and I am an essential oils user myself.</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>I don't think the gut biome really matters all that much once we start talking about fasting as the primary treatment modality. A long fast will kill off the majority of the gut biome due to starvation. The refeeding portion after the fast is very important to create a healthy microbiome though. This is why during the refeed there should be a wide variety of well-cooked and some raw vegetables (some vegetable juice is fine too), herbal teas, some easily digestible starches (like rice), plenty of fats to keep the small intestine clean (any dairy should be full fat IMO), adequate protein to help repair damaged tissues, and a slow introduction of sweet fruits, sugar, and grains nearing the end of the refeeding period to stop the overgrowth of some more harmful bacterial species. Variety of foods is very important during the refeed. During the refeed a person could even take small amounts of probiotics to ensure that a healthy microbiome develops - but I don't know if that would be necessary. Things like HCl or the greens/EVOL/vinegar mixture would be a good addition to add in once meat is reintroduced.<br/>
<br/>
I have laid out my idea of how to best break a long fast in another post here. Can't remember the exact location.<br/>
<br/>
But essentially we want to keep dietary antioxidant intake very high, with a wide diversity of fibers from many different plants, some dairy fat, and a slow introduction of sweet fruits, sugar, and grains (some people may just never do well on grains or certain foods though, others will be fine).</t>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>But overall, I think your understanding of the main issues are accurate. There is definitely a series of positive feedback loops that develop among diverse systems (microbiome, gut lining, hormones, mitochondria, etc.) and ultimately accelerate and worsen disease progression. <br/>
<br/>
Antibiotics can be useful for sure, but like you said, likely don't change the ratios. Antibiotics immediately followed by probiotics and the right diet are more useful though.<br/>
<br/>
But fasting is the ultimate treatment - it hits all systems; resets microbiome, allows gut to heal, hormone re-sensitization, stops mitochondrial fission and promotes fusion, and chelates minerals.</t>

 

[jaa]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="3046" time="1509376297" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
I have laid out my idea of how to best break a long fast in another post here. Can't remember the exact location.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

<URL url="http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=55&start=40#p924"><LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?f=51&t=55&start=40#p924">http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=55&start=40#p924</LINK_TEXT></URL><br/>
<br/>
This is a rough guide. It could possibly be shortened by 50%, but I think taking your time during a refeed can be safer. Ultimately you should be able to make adjustments on the fly depending on how you're feeling.<br/>
<br/>
Days 1-7<br/>
Focus on mineral intake, particularly magnesium, sodium and potassium<br/>
Calories will still be low at this point, you'll likely regain some water weight but continue to lose fat<br/>
Vegetable broths, soups, well cooked vegetables, cooked leafy greens, etc.<br/>
Maybe some rice<br/>
Minimal herbs/spices<br/>
A bit of fats (eggs, butter) mixed in with the soups<br/>
Not very much protein, if any<br/>
Introduce food/calories slowly<br/>
<br/>
Days 7-21<br/>
Anything from days 1-7 would be fine<br/>
Calorie intake will be slightly low, trending towards maintenance near the third week<br/>
Fresh vegetables and greens marinated in olive oil/vinegar<br/>
Some herbs/spices<br/>
More rice, maybe some well cooked oats, small amounts of fruit, possibly small amounts of tubers<br/>
Small amounts of well cooked meat/seafood daily (slow roasted would be a good option)<br/>
Increase fat and protein gradually to get pancreas and gallbladder up to speed over these two weeks.<br/>
<br/>
Days 21+<br/>
Everything from before is fine<br/>
Calories should be around maintenance near this point<br/>
By this point you should be able to exercise easily<br/>
More fruit, more carbohydrates (according to activity levels)<br/>
More foods high in manganese (oats, cereals, etc.) if well tolerated<br/>
More meat (and/or supplement zinc)<br/>
Tubers could be introduced if well tolerated<br/>
Should be hitting near the RDA of most vitamins/minerals by this point, with maybe the exception of calcium and vitamins e/d.<br/>
If digestion is robust at this point you can likely eat whatever your intuition is pushing you towards</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="3047" time="1509376602" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
But overall, I think your understanding of the main issues are accurate. There is definitely a series of positive feedback loops that develop among diverse systems (microbiome, gut lining, hormones, mitochondria, etc.) and ultimately accelerate and worsen disease progression. <br/>
<br/>
Antibiotics can be useful for sure, but like you said, likely don't change the ratios. Antibiotics immediately followed by probiotics and the right diet are more useful though.<br/>
<br/>
But fasting is the ultimate treatment - it hits all systems; resets microbiome, allows gut to heal, hormone re-sensitization, stops mitochondrial fission and promotes fusion, and chelates minerals.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

What do you think about the statement that fasting is not good for fast oxidizer because they will crash? <br/>
Cant really tell what my type is. With medication and in remission I think Im slow. But while flaring I'm fast.</r>

 

[Canari]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>But what says your hair analysis!</t>