Ulcerative Colitis / IBD

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23379830">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23379830</URL><br/>
<br/>
I think thats the one</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="dante" post_id="904" time="1507657072" user_id="109"><s>

</s>
This is the first time I am hearing that high localized fast metabolism as the cause of UC . Haidut once shared a study of very high dose thiamine (~600mg) helping with UC. Why do you think it works? At that high dose, I have no idea how it works in the context of metabolism.<br/>
Also, regarding MS, what about high dose biotin?<br/>
(This high dose chemo + stem cell sounds like an overkill).<br/>
Mattyb, why didn't you raise these points over at rpf lol ?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I didn't like posting at RPF, so I rarely shared my opinions there. The environment is too hostile and dogmatic there for good discussions to happen. Very grateful for this forum and the way people are open and considerate here.<br/>
<br/>
Haidut's post was purely about fatigue in UC/Crohn's, not about any actual gut pathology. And it makes perfect sense in this context. In UC/IBD/Crohn's the body would try to downregulate metabolism to control localized damage in the gut, this would create fatigue. Forcing thiamine into people would help fight against lowered metabolism, thereby improving fatigue. It would not help disease symptoms though in the long run and may make things worse. The study only lasted 20 days, which probably wouldn't be long enough to start seeing negative effects, but I'm not sure how thiamine would interact with mitochondrial fission, I will have to read more about it. I would suspect it would increase fission by enhancing metabolism, but I'm not sure. The study did not mention anything about disease symptoms, other than a casual remark about a reduction in diarrhea.<br/>
<br/>
I'm not sure about biotin in MS, I don't know much about biotin. I think the best treatment for it and most autoimmune diseases is fasting, but lots of people probably get the refeeding period wrong and make things worse in the end. I also think drugs like Ebselen have serious potential for some autoimmune and neurodegenerative diseases like MS, and may have their role particularly during the pre-fast and refeeding periods.<br/>
<br/>
I agree the chemo and stem cells seem crazy. The therapy has actually killed a few people already, but it has sent at least a dozen people into permanent remission so it does work. I think there are better ways like fasting to make this happen. Maybe some drugs like PP1 and Ebselen in combination would be a good treatment, followed by therapies that help recover metabolism.</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="905" time="1507657250" user_id="114"><s>

</s>
How long would that fast need to be? @mattyb
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

In one study with mice they did cyclic three day fasts for MS, but to a mice a three day fast is like a 7-10 day fast for us. So I would do a minimum of 7 days for most people, and more along the lines of 10-14 days. You may need to do this multiple times for it to work. And the refeeding period needs to be done correctly.<br/>
<br/>
In one study that I found they mentioned doing 10 day fasts and improved 7/10 primary symptoms of IBS.<br/>
<br/>
<URL url="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1207/s15327558ijbm1303_4"><LINK_TEXT text="https://link.springer.com/article/10.12 ... ijbm1303_4">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1207/s15327558ijbm1303_4</LINK_TEXT></URL></r>

 

[Orion]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="914" time="1507659658" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
And the refeeding period needs to be done correctly.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

mattyb, could you describe your thoughts on breaking long fasts... ideal foods, timings. thanks</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>What makes you to be sure that I'm stuck (or still stuck) with excessive mitochondrial fission? <br/>
I do get how it is connected to UC. And I read your posts multiple times. <br/>
<br/>
But just an assumption that its not the case with me and its already good.<br/>
Any chance to see how it is right now? Or what would change with it? <br/>
<br/>
And then b1 b2 palmoil and sport would help. ?</t>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="Orion" post_id="915" time="1507659936" user_id="56"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="914" time="1507659658" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
And the refeeding period needs to be done correctly.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

mattyb, could you describe your thoughts on breaking long fasts... ideal foods, timings. thanks
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

This is a rough guide. It could possibly be shortened by 50%, but I think taking your time during a refeed can be safer. Ultimately you should be able to make adjustments on the fly depending on how you're feeling.<br/>
<br/>
Days 1-7<br/>
Focus on mineral intake, particularly magnesium, sodium and potassium<br/>
Calories will still be low at this point, you'll likely regain some water weight but continue to lose fat<br/>
Vegetable broths, soups, well cooked vegetables, cooked leafy greens, etc.<br/>
Maybe some rice<br/>
Minimal herbs/spices<br/>
A bit of fats (eggs, butter) mixed in with the soups<br/>
Not very much protein, if any<br/>
Introduce food/calories slowly<br/>
<br/>
Days 7-21<br/>
Anything from days 1-7 would be fine<br/>
Calorie intake will be slightly low, trending towards maintenance near the third week<br/>
Fresh vegetables and greens marinated in olive oil/vinegar<br/>
Some herbs/spices<br/>
More rice, maybe some well cooked oats, small amounts of fruit, possibly small amounts of tubers<br/>
Small amounts of well cooked meat/seafood daily (slow roasted would be a good option)<br/>
Increase fat and protein gradually to get pancreas and gallbladder up to speed over these two weeks.<br/>
<br/>
Days 21+<br/>
Everything from before is fine<br/>
Calories should be around maintenance near this point<br/>
By this point you should be able to exercise easily<br/>
More fruit, more carbohydrates (according to activity levels)<br/>
More foods high in manganese (oats, cereals, etc.) if well tolerated<br/>
More meat (and/or supplement zinc)<br/>
Tubers could be introduced if well tolerated<br/>
Should be hitting near the RDA of most vitamins/minerals by this point, with maybe the exception of calcium and vitamins e/d.<br/>
If digestion is robust at this point you can likely eat whatever your intuition is pushing you towards</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="917" time="1507660749" user_id="114"><s>

</s>
What makes you to be sure that I'm stuck (or still stuck) with excessive mitochondrial fission? <br/>
I do get how it is connected to UC. And I read your posts multiple times. <br/>
<br/>
But just an assumption that its not the case with me and its already good.<br/>
Any chance to see how it is right now? Or what would change with it? <br/>
<br/>
And then b1 b2 palmoil and sport would help. ?
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Because it's present in almost all autoimmune conditions like UC/IBS. The only way to truly confirm would be to take biopsies from your digestive tract, which I don't imagine happening. <br/>
<br/>
I think the fast would help regardless if you had issues with mito fission or not. It can help correct NAD/NADH, pH, etc. And then if you follow a refeeding protocol afterwards it can help set things straight with your minerals. The eggs and rice in refeeding would likely provide sufficient B1/B2 to get metabolism going again without interference from inhibitory minerals like zinc and copper.</r>

 

[Canari]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="Orion" post_id="915" time="1507659936" user_id="56"><s>

</s>
mattyb, could you describe your thoughts on breaking long fasts... ideal foods, timings. thanks
<e>

</e></QUOTE>
<MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> There is also a post to fill here <URL url="http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23"><LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23">http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23</LINK_TEXT></URL> about breaking fast</r>

 

[Aleksandr]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="924" time="1507664159" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="Orion" post_id="915" time="1507659936" user_id="56"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="914" time="1507659658" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
And the refeeding period needs to be done correctly.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

mattyb, could you describe your thoughts on breaking long fasts... ideal foods, timings. thanks
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

This is a rough guide. It could possibly be shortened by 50%, but I think taking your time during a refeed can be safer. Ultimately you should be able to make adjustments on the fly depending on how you're feeling.<br/>
<br/>
Days 1-7<br/>
Focus on mineral intake, particularly magnesium, sodium and potassium<br/>
Calories will still be low at this point, you'll likely regain some water weight but continue to lose fat<br/>
Vegetable broths, soups, well cooked vegetables, cooked leafy greens, etc.<br/>
Maybe some rice<br/>
Minimal herbs/spices<br/>
A bit of fats (eggs, butter) mixed in with the soups<br/>
Not very much protein, if any<br/>
Introduce food/calories slowly<br/>
<br/>
Days 7-21<br/>
Anything from days 1-7 would be fine<br/>
Calorie intake will be slightly low, trending towards maintenance near the third week<br/>
Fresh vegetables and greens marinated in olive oil/vinegar<br/>
Some herbs/spices<br/>
More rice, maybe some well cooked oats, small amounts of fruit, possibly small amounts of tubers<br/>
Small amounts of well cooked meat/seafood daily (slow roasted would be a good option)<br/>
Increase fat and protein gradually to get pancreas and gallbladder up to speed over these two weeks.<br/>
<br/>
Days 21+<br/>
Everything from before is fine<br/>
Calories should be around maintenance near this point<br/>
By this point you should be able to exercise easily<br/>
More fruit, more carbohydrates (according to activity levels)<br/>
More foods high in manganese (oats, cereals, etc.) if well tolerated<br/>
More meat (and/or supplement zinc)<br/>
Tubers could be introduced if well tolerated<br/>
Should be hitting near the RDA of most vitamins/minerals by this point, with maybe the exception of calcium and vitamins e/d.<br/>
If digestion is robust at this point you can likely eat whatever your intuition is pushing you towards
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Wow that is an insane amount of time. Id rather just do the lemon egg soup thing for 3 days. It sounds like you just want soft mushy well cooked food with less protein for awhile</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="m_arch" post_id="1049" time="1507762067" user_id="66"><s>

</s>
Wow that is an insane amount of time. Id rather just do the lemon egg soup thing for 3 days. It sounds like you just want soft mushy well cooked food with less protein for awhile
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

This would be for recovery after a very long fast (+30 days). <br/>
<br/>
I think you could easily cut that down by 50% or more with shorter fasts. For sure.</r>

 

[Orion]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="1079" time="1507777786" user_id="95"><s>

</s>
<QUOTE author="m_arch" post_id="1049" time="1507762067" user_id="66"><s>

</s>
Wow that is an insane amount of time. Id rather just do the lemon egg soup thing for 3 days. It sounds like you just want soft mushy well cooked food with less protein for awhile
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

This would be for recovery after a very long fast (+30 days). <br/>
<br/>
I think you could easily cut that down by 50% or more with shorter fasts. For sure.
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Coming off a 14 water fast, I did lemon egg soup for 4 days, but found adding other foods quickly went really well, digestion didn't have any bad reactions. I am planning a 40day Breuss, so will probably use mattyb's break recommendations, and take it real slow. Lots of other fasting sites, suggest taking lots of time and reintroduce new foods slowly and in small portions.</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
<br/>
Am I understanding it right?: (desribed as simply as possible) <br/>
<br/>
In UC (flareup) it is fast "metabolism" therefore plenty of cells. And plenty of bad cells. The bad cells divide as well as the good ones. The body tries to destroy the bad ones but metabolism is fast so the "immune system" overreacts. Because of that amount of bad cells destroyed there is more inflammation than normal.(Or because of more sh*t left over from defect cells) Fast metabolism is fast deviding cells. Good or bad. <br/>
<br/>
Now what things like immunsupressive meds do is lowering the "cell" count therefore less bad cells but less good ones too. Now there is less "work" to do, to destroy the bad ones.(Or less left overs) That can be remission for some time. But is slow metabolism. Therefore pyruvate+lactate increases ? <br/>
<br/>
Or: The cell got bad because it has a defect somewhere therefore pyruvate increases and because pyruvate cant be used lactate increases. <br/>
Thats when the cell gets destroyed "normaly".(Is defect)<br/>
<br/>
If I increase metabolism short time via caffeine etc. (Im not sure) then the cells work "faster" to use up all energy. <br/>
If I try to increase metabolism in general then Im increasing the cell count. Good and bad ones.<br/>
<br/>
That would be bad for UC. <br/>
<br/>
Goal is to have normal count of good ones. And as low as possible bad ones. <br/>
<br/>
Way1: Get to lowest count of cells (chemotherapy,fast) -> so bad ones are low. Increase Good ones ?<br/>
Way2: Destroy bad ones more than good ones. -> Increase cell. <br/>
Way3: Increasing Mitochondrial fusion<br/>
<br/>
Whats easier destroy bad ones or increase good ones? Is there a way to destroy/help only bad ones? MB ?<br/>
<br/>
+If I eat too much then body tries to increase cell count to use it (metabolism). But it wont increase on its own because it wants to save me from UC flare up. So my body does not need that much energy. -> Body wants to get rid of food via urgency ? So Caffeine smoking does help in this way ? <br/>
<br/>
I read somewhere UC would be a Immunesystem deficency instead of Autoimmunedisease. That would mean that the body isnt able to get rid of defect cells therefore these defect cells produce more Sh*t (ROS) which increases Inflammation? <br/>
<br/>
What do you think about Methylene Blue and mitochondiral fisson ?</r>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>Just thoughts:<br/>
<br/>
"It was found that arachidonic acid applied at the concentration of 40 nmol/mg protein considerably increased the rate of ROS production by AS-30D cells (Fig. 3), whereas palmitic acid used at the same or higher concentration was ineffective and oleic acid resulted in a significant diminution of ROS production" -> UC meds are often COX (~=arachidonic acid) blocker. <br/>
<br/>
Mdivi-1 would inhibit drp1. (As well as Dynasore and P110 )<br/>
<br/>
Manganese on DRP1 and fission: <br/>
<URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539244">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539244</URL><br/>
<URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24632637">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24632637</URL><br/>
<br/>
butyrate: <br/>
<URL url="http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/837381_3">http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/837381_3</URL> !!<br/>
<URL url="http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.de/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html"><LINK_TEXT text="http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.de/20 ... er-of.html">http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.de/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html</LINK_TEXT></URL><br/>
<URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099420/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099420/</URL><br/>
<br/>
I guess those things would only help to increase cell (mitochondria) count: <URL url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24473982">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24473982</URL><br/>
<br/>
Ulcerative colitis metabolic changes:<br/>
<URL url="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.568.2806&rep=rep1&type=pdf"><LINK_TEXT text="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.568.2806&rep=rep1&type=pdf</LINK_TEXT></URL><br/>
<br/>
Oxphos impaired-> increased Fission/Ros: <br/>
"An age-dependent increase in ROS production in mammalian cells, including neurons, has been extensively reported in the literature. This increase may be due to increased electron leaks in OXPHOS and defective OXPHOS and low synthesis of ATP. This increased leakage, in turn, might lead to increased energy demands in cells, resulting in increased mitochondrial fission and imbalanced mitochondrial dynamics. The overproduction of ROS has been found to occur in cells undergoing increased mitochondrial fission [55–58]. Further, altered mitochondrial structure has been reported in cells exposed to toxins, such as rotenone and nitric oxide [55–58] and high glucose levels [59]."<br/>
<br/>
Nitric Oxide: <br/>
<URL url="http://jcs.biologists.org/content/119/14/2855">http://jcs.biologists.org/content/119/14/2855</URL></r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Pretty close, a few things. <br/>
<br/>
1) Replace the word "cell" with "mitochondria". Mitochondria occupy cells, and having too many can damage the cell they occupy.<br/>
<br/>
2) There are no good or bad mitochondria in the context of UC, for the most part. Simply the right amount of mitochondria or too many. Sometimes having defects in the electron transport chain can cause mitochondrial fission (too many mitochondria), but it's not a necessary prerequisite for that to happen. Sometimes the excess mitochondria can deplete necessary nutrients needed for proper electron transport chain function, which can then lead to mitochondrial dysfunction. Defective (and not excess) mitochondria are more of a problem in diseases of aging, not diseases of youth. This is an important distinction to make.<br/>
<br/>
3) The immune system overreacts because all the excess mitochondria produce too many reactive oxygen species (ROS), causing damage in the cell. The immune system for the most part reacts to damage. When cells are damaged, it springs into action. Lots of the time pathogens hijack cell machinery to cause metabolic overdrive (in order to make the pathogen replicate quickly), so this is why the body sees that as a typically infectious disease. Ultimately the immune system attacks those "pseudo-infected" cells, causing damage and hypoxia. If the cells weren't actually infected though, that damage doesn't help anything, and the person gets sicker because now there's even more damage to deal with. Giving these people immunosuppressants alleviates some of the negative effects of these diseases, but they never cure the disease because it doesn't tackle the underlying issue (mito-fission/super fast metabolism/ROS). Typically, their dosages need to be constantly increased over time, likely because most immunosuppressants (especially the older ones) also stimulate metabolism or provide energy for metabolism, thereby aggravating the underlying cause. <br/>
<br/>
4) The chronic psychological and physiological stress of an autoimmune condition is what leads to decreased metabolism. When overstimulated by HPA activity, cells develop resistance to these hormones. This in turn aggravates the inflammation (because the HPA axis keeps inflammation in check), but the deficit in energy caused by this actually helps the underlying condition by reducing the rate of mito-fission. However, the increase in inflammation drives hypoxia and ROS generation, which in turn damages mitochondria, which in turn stimulates the mitochondria to continue fission despite there being less energy (but this happens at a slower rate because there's less energy available). This is why fasting is so beneficial - because it decreases both inflammation and mitochondrial fission, sensitizes cells to the HPA hormones, and most importantly causes autophagy and mitochondrial fusion which fixes the true underlying problem.<br/>
<br/>
I think I may draw this out on my white board later and upload it here, or make a video explaining this at some point. It's harder to explain with words but very easy to see when drawn out and explained.</t>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Nice find on some of those studies - I was unaware of Mn's role in fission. <br/>
<br/>
Just keep in mind that diseases like Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and Osteoarthritis, which are characteristic of old age are different than diseases like UC, Crohn's, multiple sclerosis, and JRA which are characteristic of young age.<br/>
<br/>
In old age diseases you are more likely to have: <br/>
Mitochondrial dysfunction leads to mitochondrial fission.<br/>
<br/>
In young age diseases you are more likely to have: <br/>
Mitochondrial fission leads to mitochondrial dysfunction.</t>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>I will need to keep re-reading your posts. <E></E> <br/>
I think I understand it. But if you got some time that video would be great! Thank you <br/>
Way more than could ask for! <br/>
<br/>
Methylene Blue would be a ROS inhibitor. But Im not sure if it would be good to interfere only at the end.<br/>
<br/>
What do you think about MB? <br/>
It increases Mito lifespan therefore inhibiting one way of mitochondrial fission?<br/>
<br/>
?My problems now are the results of repeating Colitis flare ups which all on its own changed gut pH etc by time? So every new flare up will worsen all symptoms in subsequent remissions? <br/>
<br/>
Could it actually be that my acute problems are caused just because of a too low mitochondria count? <br/>
Thats the only way I could imagine caffeine and all helping.<br/>
But that would mean there is low mito fisson. <br/>
<br/>
Im still confused how palmitate helps me in this constellation.(with my acute problems)<br/>
<br/>
Sorry If Im actually asking you things twice. I still try to get everything right in my head.</r>

 

[mattyb]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>MB would be good for diseases of aging - there is already data out there showing it's effective for Alzheimer's and maybe Parkinson's. I think a combination of methylene blue, red light, and ebselen and maybe carefully timed short term fasting to stimulate autophagy could possibly reverse these diseases - but I have a feeling light and methylene blue may have some reactions together that could be unfavorable, so I am still on the fence a bit. I think any one of those treatments alone would arrest or slow disease progression.<br/>
<br/>
I don't think MB would be good in the long term for diseases of youth, as it enhances the already increased mitochondrial activity. Methylene blue does not inhibit ROS, it speeds up metabolism and increases oxygen consumption, which can increase ROS in the long run. True ROS neutralizers are SOD, catalase, ebselen, thioredoxin, glutathione, peroxiredoxin, etc.<br/>
<br/>
Metabolism and ROS have a relationship. More metabolism = more ROS. Too much ROS = damaged mitochondria = lower metabolism. This is why therapies that enhance metabolism should always be coupled with therapies that neutralize ROS, especially if there is no imbalance prior. Likewise therapies that neutralize ROS should be coupled with therapies that enhance metabolism, because ROS are a necessary part of intracellular signalling and the immune system. These two systems need to stay in balance over the long term.</t>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>One idea I just had.<br/>
<br/>
My body tries to lower everything (metabolism). So thyroid,adrenals go low. Methylation goes low. <br/>
To keep methylation down Copper is made biounavailable.(very high excess copper in hair test 16 (range1-4)) <br/>
But copper is also needed for :<br/>
<br/>
"It is needed in the final part of the glycolysis or Krebs energy cycle called the electron transport system. Any problem here causes fatigue, depression and other low energy problems."<br/>
<br/>
Also Copper is stimulatory for adrenals and thyroid. So easy way to keep those down is making copper biounavailable too. <br/>
<br/>
So everything leads to copper being now biounavailable but excess in tissue. <br/>
<br/>
Dr. Paul Eck called copper the “emotional mineral”. -> Nervous system dysfunctions.?</t>

 

[Canari]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Have you read my case and how I arrive at the some sort of things? And also why I pointed that, though it has nothing to do with psychotherapy, any work on the nervous system is useful?</t>

 

[HerrFisch]

Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>Yes I actually wrote the kind of same on your page, but did not now if its right and it was just an idea so I have not posted it yet. <MENTION><s>[mention]</s>Canari<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
<br/>
(I think your problem could be similar as in downregulated body. <br/>
Its downregulated and needs to be, so doesnt want copper. Makes it biounavailable. Boom adrenals,thyroid, metaboslim is down. ->Excess copper<br/>
<br/>
And this excess copper or low metabolism may lead to your high lactate levels because mitochondria count is too low or electronchain is not working right. <br/>
<br/>
I think thats why gbold often said copper is only for "fast oxidizer". Copper on its own would upregulate the body. But theres a reason for having a low metabolism. So extra copper would increase excess copper levels + if bioavailable then it would speed up metabolism without fixing the main problem.<br/>
So only lowering excess copper via chelation would make sense? )</r>