Why Does TRT not solve PFS (generally)?

[MNK99]

I know of this one older gentleman, he did most of Cd's program (long ago) and is on TRT but he says that's appropriate for his age.
He's doing way better and living his life well. Of course he tried tons of different meds, but I guess he settled on normal doses of a more ordinary TRT regiment.

Avoiding all that stuff is better for most of us of course. I'm glad he's better tho. I wrote him a lot initially via email. Good guy.

 

[RebelWithACause]

I did TRT/high dose test (200mg-500mg) with Proviron/masteron after reading someone had success with it. Success as in: you stay on TRT and masteron for the rest of your life. Not ideal.

It was up and down. More energy, more strength, muscle gains, no depression. Sometimes brainfog. Still had a lower sex drive. Higher than before TRT though. No fantasising and I had a short temper. Angry quick. My gut was still problematic.

I had erections at night before going to sleep and in the morning.

It seemed to resolve 50% of the problems. That is when I saw that I had to do this the natural way. It was masking symptoms and not resolving the issue.

On some level I felt better than pre-fin, more motivation, more strength and my face looked healthier. I had a DGAF attitude. But I still had PFS symptoms like brainfog, lower libido and lower penis sensitivity.

PCT was a weird feeling. It did not last long. Probably 2 weeks max of feeling crappy.

I would not do TRT again unless I know I can stay on for a long time.

 

[MNK99]

Thanks @RebelWithACause for sharing your experience.
Yeah it seems like it's a half-measure. And I have comorbid issues, that would possibly make this not go well for me.
I made a detailed plan recently, but when I came here I'd be happier with 50% even, if it meant being propped up by exogenous hormones.
Although I don't even think I could keep track of several injections per week or day.
It seems like it may make one "go up and down" a lot too, and I can't afford that.

Maybe later as an older guy post PFS and with everything else on track.

NGAF is half the battle I think with nearly everything in life (depends how you look at it), I got a plan for that too - do the same things that made me NGAF in the past.

 

[RebelWithACause]

Thanks @ RebelWithACause for sharing your experience.
Yeah it seems like it's a half-measure. And I have confounding issues that would possibly make this not go well for me.
I made a detailed plan recently, but when I came here 50% even with the issues of TRT would be good. Although I don't even think I could keep track of several injections per week or day.
It seems like it may make one go up and down mentally a lot too, and I can't afford that.

I would advice against it. But you can try it if you want. gbolduev does not like exogenous hormones because they tank minerals.

Overall I felt better mentally. Especially from the Proviron. I would love to be on TRT. But I saw that it did not resolve my issues. And if you think long term it is stupid. I had to take Proviron 25mg ED to feel good. That is not healthy.

Once you are on TRT you feel good. But you want to feel HEALTHY and NORMAL again. No gut issues and you want to have a good sex drive. I felt weird.

My energy was high. No depression or anxiety. The anxiety/neuroticism reduction came mostly from Proviron in my experience. I had erections and good morning wood. But I still had a low libido. I felt robotic. I did not feel normal. And I did not feel like this was sustainable in the long term.

I would go this route if there is NOTHING else left to try. But there is.

 

[MNK99]

Yeah man for sure, I don't mean now - definitely not for PFS. I mean maybe something like that 20-30 years from now (hopefully something better is out by then).
As in using it to prevent deterioration that comes with aging.
Ideally, I wouldn't take TRT then either.

I feel you on that, and even tiny doses of other meds have messed me up. Gonna use Ella, R-andro, intermittent fasting, some "psyche stack" stuff, get back on a life-enhancer that really helped me (when I'm a bit better), and run all that alongside the electrolyte protocol. Some other stuff too.

 

[MoveUp]

Because the problem isn't lack of testosterone, but androgenic receptors which have been permanently desensitized due to fin.

Actually, the androgen receptors have been upregulated / more have been made. This has been shown in rats given Fin as well as in men's penile tissue post Fin which shows that the androgen receptor density increased. Either way, the receptors as still not utilizing androgens appropriately.

 

[joekool]

To expand on this topic and @MoveUp 's answer... I want to add

Male's androgen receptors are receptive to both estrogen and DHT. Estrogen to sensitize the receptors and DHT to impart it's androgenic effects.

You are right that during FIN administration, receptors up-regulate and likely increase density to take in what little androgens (DHT) is left... considering FIN is only supposedly blocking 5ar2 and hence up to 60% drop in DHT levels. That drop in DHT levels means estrogen can be largely unopposed...

Furthermore, at cessation of FIN, it's hypothesized that the 5AR2 enzyme is free to convert as much test to DHT which 'overloads' these up-regulated androgen receptors and either, destroys them (unlikely) or severely down regulates and holds this state...

I'd like to share more... @Ailaeshiz we currently don't feel receptors are permanently desensitized as we've done personal tests (myself and others here) using estrogen creams and dht to gauge our 'receptivity' ... that's good news...

and finally, to answer @MNK99 original post, as to why TRT doesn't solve this... I actually think it does... but the result of TRT is NOT what we need here... as we're NOT suffering andro-pause or low T as many ppl's blood tests have shown normal levels of all hormones... what we need is an equivalent outcome of going on FIN without using that poison ... I will share more very shortly

 

[MNK99]

Nice, thanks guys. So in PSSD, it's similar but with serotonin and such receptors; SNRI's those and norepinephrine? Increased total receptors, desensitized, but insensitive? I don't mean permanently. I mean look people recover from cocaine, mdma, even meth abuse (great genes, they even look good again some of them). Do they act the same tho? I don't know... Clean cut, good 18, totally messed up 20-21, feel great (tho stressed and not super happy), 22-24 and 26-28 great... Then now will I be the same as pre fin? I hope so, I hope personality is 100 % not 60-80, etc, and I think on the same level. Otherwise, that's bad.
On phone, otherwise I'd try and make more sense. Editing later tonight.

 

[Niles]

To expand on this topic and @MoveUp 's answer... I want to add

Male's androgen receptors are receptive to both estrogen and DHT. Estrogen to sensitize the receptors and DHT to impart it's androgenic effects.

You are right that during FIN administration, receptors up-regulate and likely increase density to take in what little androgens (DHT) is left... considering FIN is only supposedly blocking 5ar2 and hence up to 60% drop in DHT levels. That drop in DHT levels means estrogen can be largely unopposed...

Furthermore, at cessation of FIN, it's hypothesized that the 5AR2 enzyme is free to convert as much test to DHT which 'overloads' these up-regulated androgen receptors and either, destroys them (unlikely) or severely down regulates and holds this state...

I'd like to share more... @Ailaeshiz we currently don't feel receptors are permanently desensitized as we've done personal tests (myself and others here) using estrogen creams and dht to gauge our 'receptivity' ... that's good news...

and finally, to answer @MNK99 original post, as to why TRT doesn't solve this... I actually think it does... but the result of TRT is NOT what we need here... as we're NOT suffering andro-pause or low T as many ppl's blood tests have shown normal levels of all hormones... what we need is an equivalent outcome of going on FIN without using that poison ... I will share more very shortly

@joekool such a tease, lol

 

[BeLikeWater]

To expand on this topic and @MoveUp 's answer... I want to add

Male's androgen receptors are receptive to both estrogen and DHT. Estrogen to sensitize the receptors and DHT to impart it's androgenic effects.

You are right that during FIN administration, receptors up-regulate and likely increase density to take in what little androgens (DHT) is left... considering FIN is only supposedly blocking 5ar2 and hence up to 60% drop in DHT levels. That drop in DHT levels means estrogen can be largely unopposed...

Furthermore, at cessation of FIN, it's hypothesized that the 5AR2 enzyme is free to convert as much test to DHT which 'overloads' these up-regulated androgen receptors and either, destroys them (unlikely) or severely down regulates and holds this state...

I'd like to share more... @Ailaeshiz we currently don't feel receptors are permanently desensitized as we've done personal tests (myself and others here) using estrogen creams and dht to gauge our 'receptivity' ... that's good news...

and finally, to answer @MNK99 original post, as to why TRT doesn't solve this... I actually think it does... but the result of TRT is NOT what we need here... as we're NOT suffering andro-pause or low T as many ppl's blood tests have shown normal levels of all hormones... what we need is an equivalent outcome of going on FIN without using that poison ... I will share more very shortly

Yeah that theory is very easy to understand, after cessation i felt completly normal for 2 days, everything was brighter libido was normal, ejaculation erection everything, after some time and I dont know if I was taking minoxidil at that time everything started to fall off. My question will be how does this theory combine with goeldvub hypotesis?

Thank you