ESTRONE VS ESTRADIOL RATIO as the cause of PFS and hairloss.

[Helen]

Like I said my biggest issue was that I experienced crazy collagen/elastin loss ( damaged blood vessels like you see in old people with red legs. spider veins..) and also issues with joints, spine.. and I can't figure out what was the culprit. Probably everything from oxidative stress, free metals in the blood to deficiencies and body completely out of homeostasis.. This is by far the worst problem I had/have.. To see in front of my eyes like I aged 20 years in like 6 months or so and if I die any moment from some aneurysm or what.. Other issues like digestion, chronic fatigue was there a long time before this and it was a joke in comparison with this body degradation..

Yeah, but for me to help you I need to know what you did to get to this point, What exact steroid you took, for how long, and when did this start. did this start over time, or it just happened after the cycle?

 

[supernature]

2 cases will need one will need more b2 and supportive supps, and another case will need more b1 and supportive supps.

I will try to write it out for people later one. With high and low DHT and testosterone.

You need to test your hormones, DHT and testosterone and estradiol and estrone. If you have high DHT and test, that means you are making NADPH but you are not making FAD.

If you have low test and DHT , then you dont make NADPH. And you need to look into which component you are missing to make it. if it is niacin or b1.

I am trying to figure out now for most cases, since we do have cases here where test levels are high. along with DHT.

...

Low NADPH can increase pentose too much and it will cause high histidine.
So low and high hemoglobin in people, I would assume.

...

 

[Helen]

2 cases high Test and DHT and low Test and DHT.
What about low Test, high DHT - maybe thats possible too and could be 3rd case.





Thats what im interested as well, the connection with the Hgb levels. Maybe low histidine is with low Hgb and high Histidine with high Hgb. So high histidine could have high Progest, low Test and high DHT and Hgb and low histidine could have low Progest, high Test, low DHT and Hgb.

DHT is made with NADPH. So is testosterone.( which is made with NAD ( 3 beta) and NADPH( 17 beta) I am not sure if low pentose causes high or low histidine levels yet. May be low pentose low histidine. Still looking at it.

Also histidine is in insulin. So we have 2 groups here also, with low and high insulin. So low DHT and low insulin, would mean that low pentose = low histidine.

high insulin and high DHT would mean too much NADPH is available. Probably FAD is missing. ( thyroid action ) NAD. This might be the hairloss scenario.

Still trying to connect the histidine with pentose exactly. Pentose also makes tryptophan , by the way.

 

[Minime]

DHT is made with NADPH. So is testosterone.( which is made with NAD ( 3 beta) and NADPH( 17 beta) I am not sure if low pentose causes high or low histidine levels yet. May be low pentose low histidine. Still looking at it.

Also histidine is in insulin. So we have 2 groups here also, with low and high insulin. So low DHT and low insulin, would mean that low pentose = low histidine.

high insulin and high DHT would mean too much NADPH is available. Probably FAD is missing. ( thyroid action ) NAD. This might be the hairloss scenario.

Still trying to connect the histidine with pentose exactly. Pentose also makes tryptophan , by the way.

To clarify my understanding, when you refer to “high” or “low”, you’re not just referring to lab results that are above or below range correct? I believe most pfs sufferers actually have hormone levels within range, albeit high or low but still in range, yet they obviously have PFS symptoms. My hormone levels are all “in range” except for estrogen which is high.

 

[TubZy]

This is speculation, take it with a grain of salt:

I think finasteride causes low estrogen side effects after a while. Wether it is the expression of estrogen on the receptor or ACTUAL low estrogen I don't know.

Friends of mine who do bodybuilding feel similar to people on PFS. Joint pain, no sex drive, no erections, stomach issues/bloated stomach, brainfog, anxiety, OCD thinking, bad stools, low confidence, suicidal thoughts, irritated and angry. Creatine also made them feel WORSE - it increases DHT. This results in more competition between DHT and estrogen. Just like me after I first quit finasteride. For some of them it took months to be back to normal. Even when their estrogen in bloodwork was GOOD. They still felt a lot of the side effects.

Similar to how guys have good blood work after quitting finasteride but they still feel like shit!

It seemed the longer they were in low estrogen state, the longer it took to feel back to normal.

One guy told me when he was on trenbolone (progestin) he would still have high sex drive even though he crashed his estrogen to the ground. When he came off trenbolone to TRT dosage he did not have any libido and low estrogen side effects. It could be that progestins can mitigate some of low estrogen side effects.

So if you are on finasteride you might still have some sex drive but when you go off now you are on just testosterone with low/crashed estrogen. When you have been in that state (while on finasteride) for a long time you do not recover instantly. It can take a pretty long time. Especially if you have low T. Because you aromatise a lot less to estrogen. And even if you aromatise the effects of E2 do not seem to be back instantly.

I think this is why people also feel bad on R-Andro a lot. When you already have feel low estrogen you add in a compound that lowers it even further!

Since taking finasteride I have felt low-ish estrogen in general. Even after recovering and fixing brainfog/libido I still feel a bit low estrogen (like joints and dry-ish skin).

This is why a lot of PFS guys react bad to zinc. This lowers estrogen even further.

Two weeks ago I took high zinc (50mg) for a while. I took the zinc with copper. While it did boost my libido in beginning. After 5 days I felt low estrogen. Hot flashes, sweating, anxiety and joint pain. Also extremely tired. This was gone after 5 days of eating low zinc.

I think this is why people react good to supplemented estrogen (+ DHT - probably don't even need it). You could probably take something like dianabol or a highly aromatising compound and feel better when you take it. Don't recommend that.

I think you can stop hairloss but I never felt good on anything that slowed or stopped my hairloss. For me it seems hair or mental health.

This is what I think what happened to me from superdrol. Superdrol doesn't aromatize while using it (it may block the estrogen receptor, I can't remember), but when I got off it my estrogen rebounded and my DHT also shot up to counteract the E raise, putting me in a hyperandrogenic type state with a super high libido, increase in adrenaline/aggressiveness but with hair loss. There are loads of logs of people getting gyno from superdrol AFTER the cycle but not during (compared to anadrol and dbol for example).

 

[jacknap]

If NADPH is offered as a supplement (maybe Alibaba) that would probably conclude if NADPH is the root cause of fixing it. Someone is bound to get their hands on it

u can get it as an IV drip too but that might be nicotanimide riboside which produces nadph as well. i used nicotinamide riboside when herb cycling. it either helps or does nothing for me

 

[Yura]

Yeah, but for me to help you I need to know what you did to get to this point, What exact steroid you took, for how long, and when did this start. did this start over time, or it just happened after the cycle?

I think the worst time when I degraded very fast was after the last cycle(it was like 3 month cycle after 4-5 years of cycling on and off typical steroids) and when I had very hard job in the factory.. It was typical cycle like testosterone, nandrolone, methandienone and finish was on stanozolol, proviron. Now I don't remember if I was taking some tamoxifen or what after the cycle.. But I know for sure that I had very high estradiol due to aromatase. I didn't take any AI.. So when I stopped. My testosterone dropped, estrogen as well for sure so now I was running just on stress hormones + this hard job so stress hormones were eating me alive. I think you can't track back exactly what happend. Now I just need to continue with hair tests, your protocol..

 

[Helen]

I think the worst time when I degraded very fast was after the last cycle(it was like 3 month cycle after 4-5 years of cycling on and off typical steroids) and when I had very hard job in the factory.. It was typical cycle like testosterone, nandrolone, methandienone and finish was on stanozolol, proviron. Now I don't remember if I was taking some tamoxifen or what after the cycle.. But I know for sure that I had very high estradiol due to aromatase. I didn't take any AI.. So when I stopped. My testosterone dropped, estrogen as well for sure so now I was running just on stress hormones + this hard job so stress hormones were eating me alive. I think you can't track back exactly what happend. Now I just need to continue with hair tests, your protocol..

yeah, but did you try PCT after all this?

 

[Yura]

Like i said I think I was taking proviron and tamoxifen..

 

[RebelWithACause]

yeah, but did you try PCT after all this?

This is a bit off topic but still:

What can I do for PCT if I do not want to take SERM? Those drugs stay in your system for months and give side effects. Most guys when they do PCT for weeks they feel OK on PCT but after they have low T anyways. It does not seem to make that much difference in recovery unless you have used progestins/heavy cycle.

I took testosterone-enanthate 300mg per week for 10 weeks.

 

[Helen]

@Shadow If you have low testosterone and low DHT. then you have 2 problems. either you dont make NADPH. or you breakdown NADPH with NADPH oxidase.

I think this could be a problem with everyone here. @Yura May be since testosterone is made with NADPH body tries to get rid of NADPH. And first, it stops retaining B1 and secondly it upregulates NADPH oxidase. This NADPH oxidase might get stuck and it creates oxidatives stress. And you try to take b1 and all other bs, but it just all goes into NADPH oxidases and turns into superoxide.

 

[Yura]

@Shadow If you have low testosterone and low DHT. then you have 2 problems. either you dont make NADPH. or you breakdown NADPH with NADPH oxidase.

I think this could be a problem with everyone here. @Yura May be since testosterone is made with NADPH body tries to get rid of NADPH. And first, it stops retaining B1 and secondly it upregulates NADPH oxidase. This NADPH oxidase might get stuck and it creates oxidatives stress. And you try to take b1 and all other bs, but it just all goes into NADPH oxidases and turns into superoxide.

But I am much better now. Simply the damage was done. So I can't expect that I will be 100% healthy again. I don't think that I am doing something counterproductive now like years and years before.. Will see how my next hair test will look like.. @Helen should I add to my amino acids (tyrosine,taurine, histidine, glycine, whey protein) also carnitine? It can only help right?

 

[Helen]

But I am much better now. Simply the damage was done. So I can't expect that I will be 100% healthy again. I don't think that I am doing something counterproductive now like years and years before.. Will see how my next hair test will look like.. @Helen should I add to my amino acids (tyrosine,taurine, histidine, glycine, whey protein) also carnitine? It can only help right?

No it might not help/. we dont know about histidine,. More I look at it now. the more I see it should be regulatory. it is best to take just normal aminos since you dont know what body chemistry you are in.

 

[Yura]

it is best to take just normal aminos since you dont know what body chemistry you are in.

That means what "normal aminos"..?

 

[Helen]

That means what "normal aminos"..?

FOOD

 

[Yura]

FOOD

For people with bad digestion. Like mine is not ideal. I am not sure that I will get enough of amino acids just from food. + 3 point in your electrolyte protocol is all about taking amino acids lol. Btw you recommend in protocol protein sources like tuna? Full of mercury? So much contradictions..

 

[freeflow]

For people with bad digestion. Like mine is not ideal. I am not sure that I will get enough of amino acids just from food. + 3 point in your electrolyte protocol is all about taking amino acids lol. Btw you recommend in protocol protein sources like tuna? Full of mercury? So much contradictions..

I love seafood so much, this mercury is really cruel.because of the mercury exposure in dentistry i can eat seafood like once a month though.

 

[Yura]

I mean why would you recommend tuna over like eggs or chicken, beef.. Even sardines are 100x better. Much lower heavy metal content and much high micronutrients.. Doesn't make any sense as in protocol it should be recommendation for the least harmful foods..

 

[Admiral]

No it might not help/. we dont know about histidine,. More I look at it now. the more I see it should be regulatory. it is best to take just normal aminos since you dont know what body chemistry you are in.

I think histidine is a must for slow oxidizers. I can’t deal with ARL without it.

Anyway, I think the electrolyte protocol is amazing, but at the same time you need to pick out what’s working for you. Betaine HCL, hydrogen water or even flushes and enema’s can be counter productive in some cases.

The base should be ARL - full program, with perhaps digestive aids (HCL, bile acids), amino’s, watch out for anything that lowers electrolytes and have a healthy diet and lifestyle. That should be enough.

 

[Yura]

I think histidine is a must for slow oxidizers. I can’t deal with ARL without it.

Anyway, I think the electrolyte protocol is amazing, but at the same time you need to pick out what’s working for you. Betaine HCL, hydrogen water or even flushes and enema’s can be counter productive in some cases.

The base should be ARL - full program, with perhaps digestive aids (HCL, bile acids), amino’s, watch out for anything that lowers electrolytes and have a healthy diet and lifestyle. That should be enough.

Even with ARL program you need to be careful. Like Helen said if you have low amino acids (systemic proteins) and you start taking shit loads of minerals. They will just floating in the body and causing even more issues..