Main symptoms are libido, hair loss, and digestion. Libido is strong right now. Hair is shedding, digestion is ok. Check out my log
Niles
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Just spoke with Rick Malter about my latest TEI results, and man, the dude is good. He could tell me point-by-point exactly why I saw the rise and subsequent crash in Na and K, why the ARL supplements weren't ideal for my body chemistry, and what I should do moving forward. He then explained even why even the TEI algorithm's four lows program isn't ideal... apparently, they prioritize your metabolic rate over the fact that you're low in all macros, which as a fast #4, could end up crashing my Na/K even lower. He came up with a personalized regimen that looks balanced and safe, explaining why he chose what every step of the way. I haven't started on this new regimen yet, but I'm feeling very confident.
Care to share the different protocol he set up for you?
Niles
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Sure:
Para-pack: 1, 1, 0
Sym-pack: 0, 0, 1
Adrenal Complex: 1, 1, 0
Min-Plex-B: 1, 1, 1
Copper Plus: 0, 0, 1
Potassium Plus: 1, 1, 0
Vitamin E Plus: 1, 1, 1
HCL Plus: 1, 1, 1
He added K and Para-pack to support adrenal/thyroid function and balance the Sym-pack and Min-Plex-B, and swapped enzyme standalone supp for enzyme + HCl. Major difference from ARL, which would say adrenal and thyroid need to be "put to bed". Here they are supported, while also supporting Mg and Ca absorption.
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Sorry...what do you mean by “put to bed”?
Niles
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It's what Dr. Wilson likes to say when referring to the ARL four lows regimen. They megadose Mg and Ca to slow thyroid and adrenal function. This can work, but it's kind of a brute force approach to getting a burned out fast oxidizer to come out of four lows as a slow oxidizer. This TEI method with adrenal and thyroid support is a gentler approach - whether or not it's better for me is TBD.
Interesting. I am just starting my ARL supps today. I am a slow oxidizer. I have no idea if I am “four lows” or “three lows” or whatever. My practitioner never told me. I have to admit I am a bit nervous to be starting the ARL protocol given what some others have experienced. I hope the TEI protocol works for you. Who knows...maybe I will be following your lead if ARL causes too many issues for me.
Niles
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ARL is a great program, as is TEI, but they have different approaches. I think the general consensus is that TEI tends to be gentler, yet slower, whereas ARL can make significant metabolic shifts fairly quickly. I just checked your test, and you have a good amount of Ca/Mg in the cell to work with (i.e. 2 lows slow oxidizer). In my case, all 4 macros are low so I'd rather take the gentler route until I feel more stable. You also don't appear to be overly toxic in any metals. I had mixed results from ARL due to my delicate state, and @bruschi11 had difficulty with ARL due to rapid chelation of toxic metals without enough detox support. I wouldn't let either of these experiences shake your confidence in the program - @hairsuit is doing very well on ARL after an initial detox.
Do you still have pain in your hands?
supernature
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Yes, TEI dont treat 4 lows as 4 lows. It is a totally different program.
4 lows usually is lactic acidosis. So ARL by giving calcium and magnesium buffered the acidosis. And you went back to your original body chemistry. But then they turn around and give you copper and trying to slow you down, and putting you back down. So you dont produce lactic acid again.
this has nothing to do really with being low in all 4 electrolytes. your systems and adrenals and thyroid are working fine. It is just lactic acidosis needs to be buffered and sodium and potassium go into blood to buffer it. Thus you have 4 lows as a fast oxidizer.( original)
ARL is a correct program. LOL. ARL buffered your acidosis and at the same time were trying to slow you down, so you dont produce lactic acid . I think calcium and magnesium should be probably even doubled. in that program.
TEI program for 4 lows, does exactly the same as ARL, but without buffering it with calcium and magnesium.
The only tricky part in TEI program is that they assume you are fast or slow oxidizer right off the bat . ARL does not guess, they see first where you will come out, fast or slow. And then they give stuff for a fast oxidizer.
Wilson by saying putting adrenals to sleep just makes stuff up. Calcium and magnesium by buffering acidosis actually take off pressure of adrenals. Since adrenals dont have to pump so much aldo and progesterone to sustain the buffering
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Niles
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Hmm, that makes sense except for the bit about copper - they didn't up my copper after the first round, yet I started to feel worse on the second round of supps. Here are all my supp suggestions, from first test to last, and corresponding tests are in my sig:
And here is what Rick Malter suggested:
Para-pack: 1, 1, 0
Sym-pack: 0, 0, 1
Adrenal Complex: 1, 1, 0
Min-Plex-B: 1, 1, 1
Copper Plus: 0, 0, 1
Potassium Plus: 1, 1, 0
Vitamin E Plus: 1, 1, 1
HCL Plus: 1, 1, 1
What do you think, @Helen? Do Rick's suggestions make sense, or should I go with the TEI algorithm suggestions? Or back to ARL 4 lows program? For what it's worth, my sexual sides always took a dive on Limcomin.
Niles
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Rarely, if ever. Early on in the first year, when I didn't even really know I had PFS, it was pretty consistent for like 4 months. Since then I've gotten a few flare-ups for maybe a day or two at a time.
MNK99
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Hey Niles, that's good the hand pain stuff resolved.
Just wondering... was any of that worse with R-Andro/4-Andro. I know you got stronger and in better physical shape on it, and then results tapered and at times it wasn't so good. Any uncontrollable movements? Any of that worsened on R-Andro/4-Andro.
I may have had SOME tics/movements a long long time. But basically everything makes them worse (alcohol, smoking, substances). Though I haven't drank or smoked in .5years+. I have vaped various things tho.
I almost broke my thumb, outside of the gym - trying to close a door, but my hand moved in a different direction. I think hypermobility increases when on R-Andro / 4-Andro (probably R-Andro). Not in a good way. There were contributing factors worsening my usual clumsiness.
-I think I was taking too much stuff or something that doesn't agree with me, in addition to a couple normal things for me that do increase tremors.
-Hence, this isn't all PFS... I'm just wondering -- any strange motor movement stuff?
Just wondering... was any of that worse with R-Andro/4-Andro. I know you got stronger and in better physical shape on it, and then results tapered and at times it wasn't so good. Any uncontrollable movements? Any of that worsened on R-Andro/4-Andro.
I may have had SOME tics/movements a long long time. But basically everything makes them worse (alcohol, smoking, substances). Though I haven't drank or smoked in .5years+. I have vaped various things tho.
I almost broke my thumb, outside of the gym - trying to close a door, but my hand moved in a different direction. I think hypermobility increases when on R-Andro / 4-Andro (probably R-Andro). Not in a good way. There were contributing factors worsening my usual clumsiness.
-I think I was taking too much stuff or something that doesn't agree with me, in addition to a couple normal things for me that do increase tremors.
-Hence, this isn't all PFS... I'm just wondering -- any strange motor movement stuff?
Niles
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The only thing I know of that worsened hand pain for me was stress. It would slowly build up over the course of a week or so and get to a point where I wouldn't be able to type at a keyboard for more than a couple minutes without taking a break to massage my hands. I wish I had better insight into what fixed it for me, but it got much better when I took a week off from work and after that it just slowly disappeared. It's flared up since then only during sustained periods of great stress; I had it again for a couple of days while I was in NYC on a high level project.
Hmm, I'm surprised to hear about the hypermobility on r/4andro. Only thing I experienced from my R-andro re: mobility is joint pain, stiffness, and popping from low E. I also didn't have worsened involuntary movements. Only time I would ever spasm is right as I was falling asleep, which rarely happens now. I do still feel less coordinated than before PFS, though.
MNK99
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Well I mean I'm hypermobile.
Double jointed shoulders, fingers can go way past parallel (or wherever they should be if you stick your hand and fingers out straight), wrists feel lose...
Maybe I'm not describing well, it's more like R-andro makes those sometimes bad motor movement errors more pronounced. Probably not enhancing hypermobility. But between cartilage issues,. Being hypermobile, hyperactive/clumsy... Plus some tics/movements... Definitely something is making me more injury prone.
Just quit creatine (water retention). Surprised it contributed a lot to strength (preworkout Alpha GPC and creatine, caffiene, carbs). But screw it for now.
Yeah I think probably it's medical marijuana also making me more "shaky/twitchy", is the best way to describe it.
Definitely a lot of related effects are gone for me, thankfully like vertigo and stuff (though even supplements sometimes cause that kind of thing, but I'm sure it's fhem), not like the intense vertigo I had on /quitting fin + Lamotrigine).
-AND good example of what I mean is like when your shaving (say with a straight razor), and instead of shaving down with the grain for a pass, you accidentally stroke left to right.
So what would have been a clean cut stroke, shaving off facial hair, is now a slice across the face.
-this happened a few times before, mostly ADHD, but I mean more like fingers/digits moving erratically at times.
-usuallg I don't think about it, but hit same thumb few times. Last cycle of prohormones, felt I was close to dislocating/breaking something.
I get hurt but not usually so easily/often.
---OR you mean to move a digit out of the way but move it toward it with force.
Like say you put down a drinking glass, almost drop it, but accidentally throw it.
I don't know if that makes sense.
That's bad!
I'm sure it's just neurological damage....
Mostly fixable. I hope.
And yeah could be anything but it's worse, BC I've had shakes from probably a lot of things, but this is different. I barely take 5-7 things now consistently, besides diet (MMJ, dex, nicotine, randro/4andro, coffee -- only).
Yeah I lack coordination for many things but always can save / catch what I'm dropping usually. I have reflexes like a cat!!
But I'm sure both times I went on meds (SNRI, 5ari) contributed to somehow even worse coordination. Lots of practice, it kind of gets better.
I worry maybe I have or will have Parkinson's later. Or some strange brain disease that causes everything. I don't think so tho. It's probably my nature, worsened.
Anyways not to catastrophise, it's probably not the Andro's.
Double jointed shoulders, fingers can go way past parallel (or wherever they should be if you stick your hand and fingers out straight), wrists feel lose...
Maybe I'm not describing well, it's more like R-andro makes those sometimes bad motor movement errors more pronounced. Probably not enhancing hypermobility. But between cartilage issues,. Being hypermobile, hyperactive/clumsy... Plus some tics/movements... Definitely something is making me more injury prone.
Just quit creatine (water retention). Surprised it contributed a lot to strength (preworkout Alpha GPC and creatine, caffiene, carbs). But screw it for now.
Yeah I think probably it's medical marijuana also making me more "shaky/twitchy", is the best way to describe it.
Definitely a lot of related effects are gone for me, thankfully like vertigo and stuff (though even supplements sometimes cause that kind of thing, but I'm sure it's fhem), not like the intense vertigo I had on /quitting fin + Lamotrigine).
-AND good example of what I mean is like when your shaving (say with a straight razor), and instead of shaving down with the grain for a pass, you accidentally stroke left to right.
So what would have been a clean cut stroke, shaving off facial hair, is now a slice across the face.
-this happened a few times before, mostly ADHD, but I mean more like fingers/digits moving erratically at times.
-usuallg I don't think about it, but hit same thumb few times. Last cycle of prohormones, felt I was close to dislocating/breaking something.
I get hurt but not usually so easily/often.
---OR you mean to move a digit out of the way but move it toward it with force.
Like say you put down a drinking glass, almost drop it, but accidentally throw it.
I don't know if that makes sense.
That's bad!
I'm sure it's just neurological damage....
Mostly fixable. I hope.
And yeah could be anything but it's worse, BC I've had shakes from probably a lot of things, but this is different. I barely take 5-7 things now consistently, besides diet (MMJ, dex, nicotine, randro/4andro, coffee -- only).
Yeah I lack coordination for many things but always can save / catch what I'm dropping usually. I have reflexes like a cat!!
But I'm sure both times I went on meds (SNRI, 5ari) contributed to somehow even worse coordination. Lots of practice, it kind of gets better.
I worry maybe I have or will have Parkinson's later. Or some strange brain disease that causes everything. I don't think so tho. It's probably my nature, worsened.
Anyways not to catastrophise, it's probably not the Andro's.
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Niles
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So almost a week into TEI supps, and I have some observations:
Para-pack gives me terrible anxiety
Vitamin E Plus is giving me low E sides (dry skin, stiff/sore joints)
Moving forward, I think I'll adjust to this:
Sym-pack: 1, 0, 1
Adrenal Complex: 1, 1, 1
Min-Plex-B: 1, 1, 1
Copper Plus: 1, 0, 1
Potassium Plus: 1, 1, 1
Vitamin E Plus: 0, 0, 1
Digest V-zyme: 1, 1, 1
This is nearly identical to the algorithm's suggestions, except I've added potassium and lowered vitamin E. If 1 vitamin E dose per day still gives me issues, I may just swap for a selenium supp, since each dose contains 70% DV selenium plus 700% DV vitamin E.
Also thinking about adding chelated calcium/magnesium supps to buffer potential lactic acidosis. @Helen do you think it would be a good idea to add Mg/Ca to my TEI protocol since I'm back in four lows?
Another note: my cheek bones have been hurting a lot again, which happened the first time I saw a significant loss of mass there a few months ago. Don't know yet whether this is due to TEI supps or the super stressful week at work that I had. I'm betting it's a combination, hopefully next week will be better without all the work stress.
Also, I seem to have developed two cysts around my left shoulder blade. They're below the skin, hard, but a bit pliable. Definitely not muscle knots, because they're like raised marbles. If I had to guess, I'd say they're probably ganglion cysts caused by cartilage deterioration around the shoulder blade. Causing a bit of pain now, but just more of a nuisance than anything else. Hopefully they go away on their own :/
Para-pack gives me terrible anxiety
Vitamin E Plus is giving me low E sides (dry skin, stiff/sore joints)
Moving forward, I think I'll adjust to this:
Sym-pack: 1, 0, 1
Adrenal Complex: 1, 1, 1
Min-Plex-B: 1, 1, 1
Copper Plus: 1, 0, 1
Potassium Plus: 1, 1, 1
Vitamin E Plus: 0, 0, 1
Digest V-zyme: 1, 1, 1
This is nearly identical to the algorithm's suggestions, except I've added potassium and lowered vitamin E. If 1 vitamin E dose per day still gives me issues, I may just swap for a selenium supp, since each dose contains 70% DV selenium plus 700% DV vitamin E.
Also thinking about adding chelated calcium/magnesium supps to buffer potential lactic acidosis. @Helen do you think it would be a good idea to add Mg/Ca to my TEI protocol since I'm back in four lows?
Another note: my cheek bones have been hurting a lot again, which happened the first time I saw a significant loss of mass there a few months ago. Don't know yet whether this is due to TEI supps or the super stressful week at work that I had. I'm betting it's a combination, hopefully next week will be better without all the work stress.
Also, I seem to have developed two cysts around my left shoulder blade. They're below the skin, hard, but a bit pliable. Definitely not muscle knots, because they're like raised marbles. If I had to guess, I'd say they're probably ganglion cysts caused by cartilage deterioration around the shoulder blade. Causing a bit of pain now, but just more of a nuisance than anything else. Hopefully they go away on their own :/
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