Brainstorming & Ideas (PFS - Gbol)

[Jaxx]

I was taking about volume expansion alkalosis with sodium retention, since cortisol is raised in PFS. And people dont have success with potassium chloride, potassium chloride taken alone will vasoconstrict people in PFS. It is the exact protocol that has to be taken. magnesium copper potassium together. etc
Potassium chloride is not good alone, it will increase more volume

Contraction alkalosis is the opposite and can happen during vomitting lets say , either chloride deficiency or sodium deficiency can cause it. Fixed by taking in salt solution, NACL.

Also arterial blood gases as they are used by most are not correct, I even think Stewarts approach is too easy . You cant tell anything by the artery.

Very many variables need to be looked at. this is why I used 3 compartments for my tests. blood , urine , hair.

Good example would be venous blood.
Let's say CO2 can be very high in venous blood, just because low heart output. or thick blood. this causes blood travel longer, THUS higher CO2.

The best test is to test minerals in artery and vein. This should be the regular test. The comparison of artery and vein minerals SHOW A LOT

Some people are also already talking about adding Zinc to this stack, i guess because Zinc was pretty critical in the clomid protocol you posted on RP forum. How does Zinc come in to play here and should it be added at all?

I posted that I am taking zinc from the beginning. Just look at what JoeKool is taking. I am taking similar protocol. I outlined what I am taking already, so did Joe, and Scenes.

You can run without zinc at the start, but there is a chance you will have a huge hair fall.

I will outline my protocol again, after I test it this week . I want to make sure I am all balanced. from what I am taking now.

I appreciate all your effects, really. I (we) just dont want to fuck up ourselves any more than necessary, and the current trials are a bit messy or at least undocumented.
So thats why i am asking questions that may seem redundant, to understand most of this all. As a psychologist i was somewhat familiar with the hormone discussions, but the mineral stuff is way out of my knowledge zone. Looking at the glazy eyes of my endo last weeks, i am pretty sure it is well above their expertise as well.
Leaves us all with trust in internet an internet community that hopefully can end this mess.

 

[Helen]

Some people are also already talking about adding Zinc to this stack, i guess because Zinc was pretty critical in the clomid protocol you posted on RP forum. How does Zinc come in to play here and should it be added at all?

I posted that I am taking zinc from the beginning. Just look at what JoeKool is taking. I am taking similar protocol. I outlined what I am taking already, so did Joe, and Scenes.

You can run without zinc at the start, but there is a chance you will have a huge hair fall.

I will outline my protocol again, after I test it this week . I want to make sure I am all balanced. from what I am taking now.

I appreciate all your effects, really. I (we) just dont want to fuck up ourselves any more than necessary, and the current trials are a bit messy or at least undocumented.
So thats why i am asking questions that may seem redundant, to understand most of this all. As a psychologist i was somewhat familiar with the hormone discussions, but the mineral stuff is way out of my knowledge zone. Looking at the glazy eyes of my endo last weeks, i am pretty sure it is well above their expertise as well.
Leaves us all with trust in internet an internet community that hopefully can end this mess.

There are trials going on now. More precise protocol will be outlined soon. Some people are in a hurry and already trying these, and having good results. I am personally back to normal

 

[Jaxx]

Honestly, i am very surprised about the results so far. Fingers crossed they will stick and will show a way out of this nightmare for everyone. Very promising...

 

[barbaar]

[mention]gbolduev[/mention] I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, I don't know nearly enough about this stuff to argue about it anyways. I'm just trying to learn what's going on exactly.

As soon as my supplements arrive I plan on following your protocol, even though I'm pssd not pfs. Should still work the same right?

 

[Shadow]

[mention]Jaxx[/mention] my endo didnt even mentioned minerals. Even worse, when I talked about 3a-HSD with her, she replied me: "You have been studying! Even I dont know what this is."

Correct me if Im wrong [mention]gbolduev[/mention] but minerals are like the "low level programming language" of our bodies.

 

[Jaxx]

@Jaxx my endo didnt even mentioned minerals. Even worse, when I talked about 3a-HSD with her, she replied me: "You have been studying! Even I dont know what this is."

Correct me if Im wrong @gbolduev but minerals are like the "low level programming language" of our bodies.

Yeah most minerals would be a step 2 or 3 blood test in my case, i'm only at step 1, which means thyroid, prolactine and testosterone but surprisingly did includes serum potassium and Na....Progesterone was only tested for women, im expecting very slow insights through the official endo route...

 

[joekool]

http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=51&start=20

Check out my page 3 of my log for what I'm taking. Fyi, today was an amazing day. Experienced some intense libido and erection. Only in morning tho but definitely new.

[mention]Latapy[/mention] did you post a thread of what your symptoms and history is? We can try to help

 

[Jaxx]

Thanks Joe, great to read about your progress!

 

[Helen]

@Jaxx my endo didnt even mentioned minerals. Even worse, when I talked about 3a-HSD with her, she replied me: "You have been studying! Even I dont know what this is."

Correct me if Im wrong @gbolduev but minerals are like the "low level programming language" of our bodies.

minerals are part of enzymes that regulate everything. So all imbalances are caused by minerals deficiencies or toxicities, Unless you have organic problems with some organ.

I am making a matrix of all interactions of all minerals and enzymes as a big system. LIke you feed one mineral and I see what it does to all systems .

That is why it never works for people when they take minerals, since they take one. and they unbalance others. Fix sexual problem cause diabetes.

thus minerals supplements or any supplements at all. should be taken for short term, and you should never take any supplements at all. Just eat and live healthy life.

If you do have bad habits, like smoking drinking etc, jerking off excessively , addictions. You need to learn how those addictions unbalance you and support that side..

This is why I will never agree with ray peat that everyone is the same. EVERY one is different and everyone needs to learn how to balance themselves

 

[mattyb]

I was taking about volume expansion alkalosis with sodium retention, since cortisol is raised in PFS. And people dont have success with potassium chloride, potassium chloride taken alone will vasoconstrict people in PFS. It is the exact protocol that has to be taken. magnesium copper potassium together. etc
Potassium chloride is not good alone, it will increase more volume

PFS people have chloride resistant alkalosis with potassium and magnesium depletion.

Contraction alkalosis is the opposite and can happen during vomitting lets say , either chloride deficiency or sodium deficiency can cause it. Fixed by taking in salt solution, NACL.

Also arterial blood gases as they are used by most are not correct, I even think Stewarts approach is too easy . You cant tell anything by the artery.

Very many variables need to be looked at. this is why I used 3 compartments for my tests. blood , urine , hair.

Good example would be venous blood.
Let's say CO2 can be very high in venous blood, just because low heart output. or thick blood. this causes blood travel longer, THUS higher CO2.

The best test is to test minerals in artery and vein. This should be the regular test. The comparison of artery and vein minerals SHOWs A LOT

Oh my bad! For some reason I thought you were suggesting volume contraction earlier on. That makes much more sense, seen as a mineralcorticoid disorder goes much more in line with other things you've suggested in the past regarding aldosterone and progesterone.

I had chronic chloride depletion (hypochloremia) myself, so I keep relating my own case to PFS/PSSD when that's not the case.

Typically in medical practice factors like low stroke volume would be accounted for in a clinical setting with other tests and would be considered when interpreting blood gases, so blood gases can still be useful using standard protocols and keeping all other prior tests in mind. Internists often order like 2-3 tests (e.g. spirometry, urine, blood, echo, etc.) at once and are measuring multiple times per day in blood as well. Obviously in more complex cases where you have no idea what's going on I agree with your approach of tissue, blood, and venous + arterial gases to get an idea of where the whole system is at. I still am reluctant to really trust hair minerals though because I just haven't read enough on them yet - I still don't know how to differentiate between mineral dumping and actually having high levels of a mineral. I wish there was a better way like direct tissue biopsy without the invasiveness and difficulty though.

 

[Snell1234]

@Jaxx my endo didnt even mentioned minerals. Even worse, when I talked about 3a-HSD with her, she replied me: "You have been studying! Even I dont know what this is."

Correct me if Im wrong @gbolduev but minerals are like the "low level programming language" of our bodies.

minerals are part of enzymes that regulate everything. So all imbalances are caused by minerals deficiencies or toxicities, Unless you have organic problems with some organ.

I am making a matrix of all interactions of all minerals and enzymes as a big system. LIke you feed one mineral and I see what it does to all systems .

That is why it never works for people when they take minerals, since they take one. and they unbalance others. Fix sexual problem cause diabetes.

thus minerals supplements or any supplements at all. should be taken for short term, and you should never take any supplements at all. Just eat and live healthy life.

If you do have bad habits, like smoking drinking etc, jerking off excessively , addictions. You need to learn how those addictions unbalance you and support that side..

This is why I will never agree with ray peat that everyone is the same. EVERY one is different and everyone needs to learn how to balance themselves

So magnesium and copper is all we need as part of the protocol? Potassium isn't even necessary?

 

[Minime]

So @gbolduev has talked about contraction alkalosis being a major cause of PFS.

Recently I read this paper talking about how contraction alkalosis isn't actually a thing, and that the real cause of contraction alkalosis is always chloride depletion.

It Is Chloride Depletion Alkalosis, Not Contraction Alkalosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3269186/

I am wondering - how many people with PFS/PSSD have actually tried just repleting chloride?

Has anyone with PSF/PSSD had electrolytes measured and showed hypochloremia (low blood chloride)?

I think this is also why so many people are having success with low dose potassium (e.g. 99mg). All low dose potassium supps are typically potassium chloride, not citrate or anything else. In one of the papers referenced in the review I linked potassium and sodium repletion didn't correct alkalosis if given in forms other than NaCl and KCl. 99mg of potassium is absolutely nothing. It's the chloride that's making a difference.

I was taking about volume expansion alkalosis with sodium retention, since cortisol is raised in PFS. And people dont have success with potassium chloride, potassium chloride taken alone will vasoconstrict people in PFS. It is the exact protocol that has to be taken. magnesium copper potassium together. etc
Potassium chloride is not good alone, it will increase more volume

PFS people have chloride resistant alkalosis with potassium and magnesium depletion.

Contraction alkalosis is the opposite and can happen during vomitting lets say , either chloride deficiency or sodium deficiency can cause it. Fixed by taking in salt solution, NACL.

Also arterial blood gases as they are used by most are not correct, I even think Stewarts approach is too easy . You cant tell anything by the artery.

Very many variables need to be looked at. this is why I used 3 compartments for my tests. blood , urine , hair.

Good example would be venous blood.
Let's say CO2 can be very high in venous blood, just because low heart output. or thick blood. this causes blood travel longer, THUS higher CO2.

The best test is to test minerals in artery and vein. This should be the regular test. The comparison of artery and vein minerals SHOWs A LOT

Is this something doctors are willing to do (comparison of artery and vein minerals) or is this something only people with their own means can accomplish (such as @gbolduev with his lab)?

 

[jacknap]

So @gbolduev has talked about contraction alkalosis being a major cause of PFS.

Recently I read this paper talking about how contraction alkalosis isn't actually a thing, and that the real cause of contraction alkalosis is always chloride depletion.

It Is Chloride Depletion Alkalosis, Not Contraction Alkalosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3269186/

I am wondering - how many people with PFS/PSSD have actually tried just repleting chloride?

Has anyone with PSF/PSSD had electrolytes measured and showed hypochloremia (low blood chloride)?

I think this is also why so many people are having success with low dose potassium (e.g. 99mg). All low dose potassium supps are typically potassium chloride, not citrate or anything else. In one of the papers referenced in the review I linked potassium and sodium repletion didn't correct alkalosis if given in forms other than NaCl and KCl. 99mg of potassium is absolutely nothing. It's the chloride that's making a difference.

I was taking about volume expansion alkalosis with sodium retention, since cortisol is raised in PFS. And people dont have success with potassium chloride, potassium chloride taken alone will vasoconstrict people in PFS. It is the exact protocol that has to be taken. magnesium copper potassium together. etc
Potassium chloride is not good alone, it will increase more volume

PFS people have chloride resistant alkalosis with potassium and magnesium depletion.

Contraction alkalosis is the opposite and can happen during vomitting lets say , either chloride deficiency or sodium deficiency can cause it. Fixed by taking in salt solution, NACL.

Also arterial blood gases as they are used by most are not correct, I even think Stewarts approach is too easy . You cant tell anything by the artery.

Very many variables need to be looked at. this is why I used 3 compartments for my tests. blood , urine , hair.

Good example would be venous blood.
Let's say CO2 can be very high in venous blood, just because low heart output. or thick blood. this causes blood travel longer, THUS higher CO2.

The best test is to test minerals in artery and vein. This should be the regular test. The comparison of artery and vein minerals SHOWs A LOT

interesting. the hair test I took last year before I crashed from ru58841 was before I had any issues. I was always someone who just wanted to excell in health and ended up shooting myself in the foot.

you think getting another hair / blood / urine test would prove fruitful to determine wtf is wrong with me?

I'm still not sure if I suffered brain damage as I have this strange 'hole in my head' feeling that has never left since I crashed. it often 'pumps' in a way. it doesn't hurt but is super weird. I also had convulsions 2 nights the first week of crashing and couldn't get any rem sleep. sleep is super close to normal now just 1 or 2 wakes... sexual function is lagging the most

 

[MNK99]

So @gbolduev has talked about contraction alkalosis being a major cause of PFS.

Recently I read this paper talking about how contraction alkalosis isn't actually a thing, and that the real cause of contraction alkalosis is always chloride depletion.

It Is Chloride Depletion Alkalosis, Not Contraction Alkalosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3269186/

I am wondering - how many people with PFS/PSSD have actually tried just repleting chloride?

Has anyone with PSF/PSSD had electrolytes measured and showed hypochloremia (low blood chloride)?

I think this is also why so many people are having success with low dose potassium (e.g. 99mg). All low dose potassium supps are typically potassium chloride, not citrate or anything else. In one of the papers referenced in the review I linked potassium and sodium repletion didn't correct alkalosis if given in forms other than NaCl and KCl. 99mg of potassium is absolutely nothing. It's the chloride that's making a difference.

I was taking about volume expansion alkalosis with sodium retention, since cortisol is raised in PFS. And people dont have success with potassium chloride, potassium chloride taken alone will vasoconstrict people in PFS. It is the exact protocol that has to be taken. magnesium copper potassium together. etc
Potassium chloride is not good alone, it will increase more volume

PFS people have chloride resistant alkalosis with potassium and magnesium depletion.

Contraction alkalosis is the opposite and can happen during vomitting lets say , either chloride deficiency or sodium deficiency can cause it. Fixed by taking in salt solution, NACL.

Also arterial blood gases as they are used by most are not correct, I even think Stewarts approach is too easy . You cant tell anything by the artery.

Very many variables need to be looked at. this is why I used 3 compartments for my tests. blood , urine , hair.

Good example would be venous blood.
Let's say CO2 can be very high in venous blood, just because low heart output. or thick blood. this causes blood travel longer, THUS higher CO2.

The best test is to test minerals in artery and vein. This should be the regular test. The comparison of artery and vein minerals SHOWs A LOT

interesting. the hair test I took last year before I crashed from ru58841 was before I had any issues. I was always someone who just wanted to excell in health and ended up shooting myself in the foot.

you think getting another hair / blood / urine test would prove fruitful to determine wtf is wrong with me?

I'm still not sure if I suffered brain damage as I have this strange 'hole in my head' feeling that has never left since I crashed. it often 'pumps' in a way. it doesn't hurt but is super weird. I also had convulsions 2 nights the first week of crashing and couldn't get any rem sleep. sleep is super close to normal now just 1 or 2 wakes... sexual function is lagging the most

That's a fear I have too and have had -post antidepressant use (and a head injury - mild thank GOD).
I don't know if we can link other forums - but I asked on Bluelight if perhaps Effexor lowered my I.Q./ gave me irreversible brain damage. I think the consensus was it did not. I was 21/22 then. I felt far smarter at 25 after getting pretty healthy again. Although maybe that did wind me up. it's hard to say if I was always "wired" as I was obsessed with running in my early 20s/late teens, but I was a fat kid. Was it ADHD/ or drug damage that caused the wiredness - who knows. I think its fixable mostly though but patience is needed when we are harmed by PFS/PSSD/Accutane/etc. There are some meds that do cause lowered IQ tests and cognitive function, but it resolves at times - when off. The antipsychotics like Seroquel for instance.\

Way before I realized how bad it was to use effexor - I tried to push thru and work/ and study, and I couldn't. Later I could pretty effectively. It took a hell of a lot of effort, but I got way better - till the recent PFS bs.

I tested mental speed many times -- and it was faster in my late 20s and on ADHD meds then post effexor, for sure. Even with no meds and no sleep. Basically, I think near most this type of "brain damage" isn't permanent if we can correct the whole issue.

@Jacknap Are your brain sensations like "Zaps" (like an electrical shock feeling) or numbness? Temperature/Pressure? Probably hard to describe the feeling.

Note: Some psyche meds and substances of abuse DO cause permanent brain changes / "damage", but I fkn hope fin isn't in that category. Nor the meds from my misdiagnosis days.

 

[mattyb]

Is this something doctors are willing to do (comparison of artery and vein minerals) or is this something only people with their own means can accomplish (such as @gbolduev with his lab)?

As far as I know, no doctors ever do venous and arterial gases at the same time. Lots of the time in internal medicine they may do an arterial blood gas and a regular venous draw for electrolytes/whatever in close proximity.

 

[namaste]

@Jaxx my endo didnt even mentioned minerals. Even worse, when I talked about 3a-HSD with her, she replied me: "You have been studying! Even I dont know what this is."

Correct me if Im wrong @gbolduev but minerals are like the "low level programming language" of our bodies.

minerals are part of enzymes that regulate everything. So all imbalances are caused by minerals deficiencies or toxicities, Unless you have organic problems with some organ.

I am making a matrix of all interactions of all minerals and enzymes as a big system. LIke you feed one mineral and I see what it does to all systems .

That is why it never works for people when they take minerals, since they take one. and they unbalance others. Fix sexual problem cause diabetes.

thus minerals supplements or any supplements at all. should be taken for short term, and you should never take any supplements at all. Just eat and live healthy life.

If you do have bad habits, like smoking drinking etc, jerking off excessively , addictions. You need to learn how those addictions unbalance you and support that side..

This is why I will never agree with ray peat that everyone is the same. EVERY one is different and everyone needs to learn how to balance themselves

Do you still think it is wise for someone with PSSD or PFS to take Thorne Extra Nutrients, or should I take the individual minerals that you will outline in your post next week? I wasn't sure if the methylation component was still important in your mind.

Do you still plan on testing an SSRI in the future?

 

[Reverse]

I see the mention of arterial and venous gasses.
I'm not sure how they relate to pfs but is this connected to the pronounced veins I always in my body dissappearing?

When pfs first hit, I still had my veins showing in my arms.
They dissappeared about a year later.

And I share the same question as Snell,
do we only need copper and magnesium?
No potassium?
Should I lower potassium intake from food?

 

[TubZy]

@Jaxx my endo didnt even mentioned minerals. Even worse, when I talked about 3a-HSD with her, she replied me: "You have been studying! Even I dont know what this is."

Correct me if Im wrong @gbolduev but minerals are like the "low level programming language" of our bodies.

minerals are part of enzymes that regulate everything. So all imbalances are caused by minerals deficiencies or toxicities, Unless you have organic problems with some organ.

I am making a matrix of all interactions of all minerals and enzymes as a big system. LIke you feed one mineral and I see what it does to all systems .

That is why it never works for people when they take minerals, since they take one. and they unbalance others. Fix sexual problem cause diabetes.

thus minerals supplements or any supplements at all. should be taken for short term, and you should never take any supplements at all. Just eat and live healthy life.

If you do have bad habits, like smoking drinking etc, jerking off excessively , addictions. You need to learn how those addictions unbalance you and support that side..

This is why I will never agree with ray peat that everyone is the same. EVERY one is different and everyone needs to learn how to balance themselves

Truly remarkable how minerals can strongly alter enzyme function...

 

[blindsided]

Reverse- I have the exact opposite where my veins are much more pronounced, especially in forearms, hands and lower legs since PFS (I've had for around 2 years now).

Not that anyone is asking me, but just putting it out there cuz I feel like it.

On the surface this gbolduev stuff seems way too simplistic. Not sure what to make of it or how many people this could ultimately help. That said, obviously this dude knows a lot about how the body works and I have to say I am somewhat intrigued. Or maybe it seems that way given i don't really know shit, lol.

I will say this, at least for my situation: I started having symptoms after I stopped taking Fin (2 years ago) and in particular had sky high cortisol. I believe many of my symptoms that I developed at that time were directly related to high cortisol, which was caused by stopping Fin. So at least in my case, as gbolduev suggests, cortisol seemed to play a big factor. If I could have controlled my cortisol when I stopped, which I believe is being suggested here at least in part, I think things may have played out differently for me.

 

[TubZy]

Why did you choose to use aspirin btw? Just because it is an acid?

I'm guessing because it stimulates respiratory centers, which causes minor hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis, and the respiratory alkalosis will stimulate the body to lose bicarb to maintain acidity and induce a low-level metabolic acidosis (countering the persistent metabolic alkalosis of PFS). The increase in ventilation rate would also break down bicarb faster, since bicarb is broken down into CO2 + H20 at the lungs where the CO2 is released.

But I think it is a bit contradictory. Both ACE and aspirin cause metabolic acidosis but their mechanisms are very different. I think in the long run Aspirin poses more problems since it's primary mechanism still induces respiratory alkalosis and the metabolic acidosis comes secondary. ACE is different in that it's primary mechanism induces metabolic acidosis, the respiratory alkalosis that ensues is secondary.

Thanks