Copper

[TubZy]

Yeah, I mean I really feel like I’m taking nothing. It’s pretty insane versus the last cycle. Plus I’ve been using on full body mode (I spent way too much on a full joovv system lol) - nothing but good things so far.

That is awesome man. For the saunas do you actually go to a place and do it or you bought your own?

 

[Walker]

That is awesome man. For the saunas do you actually go to a place and do it or you bought your own?

I bought a modular Joovv unit: www.joovv.com

They are pricy - and you can look around and find cheaper make your own kits and such, but I love mine so far. I got the Joovv Max with my wife, and we both love it.

 

[Aflac94]

Look at @Goose12 they first kept feeding him anti copper things, for 2-3 cycles, hard, to raise his levels of zinc manganese, b1 etc.

and he felt awful on the cycle, if he took copper at first, he would die. and feel just terrible since his met rate would just die. totally.

this is why they chose to feed him zinc first, and raised him met rate and chelated copper from the brain,

then as zinc reserves were replenished, they started to give him copper and then when he was able to take the copper,

same happened with Rebel


other people are probably the opposite, they first give copper, and you feel like shit and at some point they will feed the second part and that is when you feel ok.


They use minerals not to substitute here, but to Chelate and use minerals like hormones, that is why these programs are not substitution program,

they can sacrifice some minerals in order to do certain things which they thing are needed to be done.

it is like a lego constructor, they are doing layer by layer, fix one layer, then next, then next, since feed everything at once would not do anything,

people get everything at once from food.




Of course the program could be not correct, or the hairtest was done not properly, I of course could assume that also.

But @supernature you don't understand how these programs work as an idea. as I told you already, they don't substitute minerals. It is not how it works.

This is my understanding of these programs, of course I could be wrong.


This is why on first cycles on first year or even the second year, depending what mineral you have which is interfering with stuff , you could feel worse, and that worse could be for a long long time,


This is why personally I USED CHELATION , to speed up this process,

since when TEI and ARL does this , they do this by pushing a bad mineral like lead, mercury , copper iron, or whatever you are talking in, by using other minerals

and it takes TIME and make you feel like shit, since they are fixing one compartment like Brain, and sacrificing another compartment tissue, heart, liver, etc in the moment.



This is why when I understood this stuff, and I knew that I head LEAD problem, i DECIDED to go chelation route.

I just used ALA plus carnitine,

and EDTA etc and that sped up all my personal things.


People with PFS are sick before finasteride, so fixing PFS is a joke, it is almost impossible to fix, since you were predisposed to it.

all the minerals imbalances, then cause all kind of stuff, like gut problems, like fungus growth, like bacterial growth, etc.

electrolytes imbalances.


This is why people fight all these for ages using all kinds of gut things, sibo antibiotics, this that, and no one cures anything really.


Unless of course the original problem was not caused by antibiotics use.

Then killing off the fungus and rebuilding the flora will fix copper metabolism

But if copper metabolism was impaired for a long time, then your brain is already toxic,

and your PH will be always disregulated by the brain, and thus all those gut workshops don't last.

you kill fungus, and it grows again, since PH is simply disregulated

Man this is the greatest post ,,, when to you go into explaining your understanding of it. Now it makes sense to me, and I like how you are honest that it’s just your understanding and it may not be correct.

So you had lead and went chelation route to speed it up for you. Took ALA and Carnatine ,,, what if you had Copper ? What would you have taken , still ALA and Carnatine ?

 

[Kjbigman]

and where do you see elevated urine copper. go to accutane forum , or pfs forum where people tested this, in most cases copper was undetectable in urine.

Same as in me when I was in PFS, my copper was very low in urine, and zinc was 5 times the norm

my urine copper is LOW. I am currently taking finasteride. My symptoms are illustrative of either copper excess or deficiency, I don't know which. Would low urine copper be a sign of copper TOXICITY (I am retaining too much––maybe due to the finasteride?) or DEFICIENCY ?

 

[Helen]

my urine copper is LOW. I am currently taking finasteride. My symptoms are illustrative of either copper excess or deficiency, I don't know which. Would low urine copper be a sign of copper TOXICITY (I am retaining too much––maybe due to the finasteride?) or DEFICIENCY ?

Hey. man, That is a good question. Could you please test your ceruloplasmin since you are on finasteride.

I also had super low copper in PFS in urine, and zinc was 5 times over the limit.

Do you have bloods while you are on finasteride. Might be helpful.

 

[Kjbigman]

ceruloplasmin: 0.19 g/l (range: 0.2-0.6 g/l).
copper: 87 ug/dl (range: 70–140 ug/dl).
urine copper: 7.5 ug/l (<60).

The reason I got these tests was for fear of Wilson's disease. I had all the symptoms. My skin is anemic and my hair is turning gray, and I have had some vision issues. However, no evidence was found of Wilson's rings in the eyes.

By the way, my bilirubin is always slightly elevated and has been that way even before finasteride. Also, urine phosphorous was super low but I tested for blood phosphorous and blood calcium and both were in the normal range.

 

[Kjbigman]

I mentioned before that finasteride, lowers DHT and increases t and estro, could downregulate estro receptor,

estrogen is what increases ceruloplasmin and copper absorption in the body.


but ceruloplasmin usually rises with ACTh, and ACTH rises with higher metabolism and potassium levels


this is why if you take cortisol, it lowers ACTH, and ceruloplasmin goes down. and copper absorption also

I Was reading this study about ceruloplasmin and ACTH and they suggest an opposite relationship -- more ACHT, more corticosterone, less ceruloplasmin.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Helen]

I Was reading this study about ceruloplasmin and ACTH and they suggest an opposite relationship -- more ACHT, more corticosterone, less ceruloplasmin.
View attachment 1620

[/QUOTE]

The effects of ACTH and of cortisol on serum ceruloplasmin in rabbits - ScienceDirect

Increase of ceruloplasmin level in blood of rats after ACTH. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Kjbigman]

The effects of ACTH and of cortisol on serum ceruloplasmin in rabbits - ScienceDirect

Increase of ceruloplasmin level in blood of rats after ACTH. - PubMed - NCBI[/QUOTE]
So, if I have low ceruloplasmin, then I would have corresponding low ACTH. So no Addison's disease (which has consistent elevated ACTH). Would Finasteride play a role in messing up my cortisol production?

 

[Helen]

@Kjbigman I agree with you , if you chronically give ACTH , it will eventually lower potassium and ceruloplasmin will tank

but usually ACTH goes up, when cortisol is needed and cortisol usually needed in high metabolism. so by raising ACTH, body assumes that copper is needed to slow down thyroid.

ACTH also increases zinc the same way, since when ACTH goes up, body thinks that cortisol is needed and it increases zinc in blood, to make cortisol more sensitive.

thus ACTH increase raises both copper and zinc.


So if you give ACTH from the outside, not as body regulation, first ceruloplasmin will go up, and then eventually with hypokalemia hits, cerulopasmin will go down.

 

[Kjbigman]

@Kjbigman I agree with you , if you chronically give ACTH , it will eventually lower potassium and ceruloplasmin will tank

but usually ACTH goes up, when cortisol is needed and cortisol usually needed in high metabolism. so by raising ACTH, body assumes that copper is needed to slow down thyroid.

ACTH also increases zinc the same way, since when ACTH goes up, body thinks that cortisol is needed and it increases zinc in blood, to make cortisol more sensitive.

thus ACTH increase raises both copper and zinc.


So if you give ACTH from the outside, not as body regulation, first ceruloplasmin will go up, and then eventually with hypokalemia hits, cerulopasmin will go down.

I see. If I have Addison's disease (chronic elevation in ACTH) then my ceruloplasmin will be low. So I cannot rule out Addison's. But typically a spike in ACTH is accompanied by a spike in ceruloplasmin. My ceruloplasmin is low, however, so either I have secondary adrenal insufficiency (low ACTH), or I have Addison's disease (chronic high ACTH).

Question is whether finasteride has something to do with this.

 

[Helen]

I see. If I have Addison's disease (chronic elevation in ACTH) then my ceruloplasmin will be low. So I cannot rule out Addison's. But typically a spike in ACTH is accompanied by a spike in ceruloplasmin. My ceruloplasmin is low, however, so either I have secondary adrenal insufficiency (low ACTH), or I have Addison's disease (chronic high ACTH).

Question is whether finasteride has something to do with this.

do you have bloods for hormones ,

post all you got while on finasteride.

like progesteone, cortisol, etc. estrogen.

You must have those tests right?

 

[Kjbigman]

Not yet for hormones, but will try to get soon when I am out of a third world nation. I am still on finasteride. The only bloods I got were listed above.

 

[Kjbigman]

Weird but I just ate chocolate and immediately got cold hands and sort of racing, creative thoughts. Therefore I assume that it is due to the copper but wouldn't this mean that the copper was being utilized by ceruloplasmin? If its stored or free copper it wouldn't be used. My body must actually be using the copper, right? Also, I feel like it's a kind of mini adrenaline surge. Copper is necessary for the adrenal function is it not? Struggling to figure out what's happening.

 

[Helen]

Weird but I just ate chocolate and immediately got cold hands and sort of racing, creative thoughts. Therefore I assume that it is due to the copper but wouldn't this mean that the copper was being utilized by ceruloplasmin? If its stored or free copper it wouldn't be used. My body must actually be using the copper, right? Also, I feel like it's a kind of mini adrenaline surge. Copper is necessary for the adrenal function is it not? Struggling to figure out what's happening.

this is why it would be great if you test your hormones, and especially progesterone cortisol estrogen etc while on finasteride, you would help us. and yourself.

 

[TubZy]

Weird but I just ate chocolate and immediately got cold hands and sort of racing, creative thoughts. Therefore I assume that it is due to the copper but wouldn't this mean that the copper was being utilized by ceruloplasmin? If its stored or free copper it wouldn't be used. My body must actually be using the copper, right? Also, I feel like it's a kind of mini adrenaline surge. Copper is necessary for the adrenal function is it not? Struggling to figure out what's happening.

Please test your hormones , we rarely get that many ppl that have tested while on fin

 

[merebalacy]

Aside from the sexual problems, my main problems are all copper related. I feel if I can fix my copper imbalance, I can live through this. I'm currently trying to get another hair test done, but I feel the program doesn't read or fight a copper imbalance properly and fast enough. If I were to fight this problem, I just don't know where to start as I have no clue whether I am copper toxic, copper deficient or have biounavailabe copper. Dr Wilson has a nice article about it but nor he seems very clear. He just preaches a full program will handle this over time (COPPER TOXICITY SYNDROME). My main symptoms are described just perfectly in that piece.

Some of the copper imbalance signs I've experienced:

• Low ceruloplasmin
• No connective tissue
• Bone loss
• Collagen loss
• Systematic candida overgrowth
• Brittle and weak hair
• Vitiligo
• No pigment repair
• Yellow color in the corner of my eyes

Normal serum copper and zinc levels but low copper on the hair test. It seemed as it it dropped even further the more copper I took.

If I can cure this, I would be the happiest person alive. Not sure the R-Andro cycles I had planned will work for this.

Any experiences or suggestions?

What do you mean by no connective tissue, do you mind explaining a bit more?
These symptoms resonate with me quite a lot, and I have made quite a bit of progress with recovering from these.

 

[Admiral]

What do you mean by no connective tissue, do you mind explaining a bit more?
These symptoms resonate with me quite a lot, and I have made quite a bit of progress with recovering from these.

Just stiffness. Everything cracks and pops, muscle aches. It’s the least of my problems, though.

 

[Yura]

Just stiffness. Everything cracks and pops, muscle aches. It’s the least of my problems, though.

Are you there bro? YOu are doing HG7 protocol right?

 

[Admiral]

I do. I just can’t get the b6 symptoms under control. It keeps giving me neuropathy no matter the dose or co factors. I’ve seen some big plusses, though, but I have to look elsewhere. Will likely hop on ARL within a few months.