Decalcifying agents

[mattyb]

What agents are known decalcifiers, as in they remove calcium from the body for excretion from urine? I have been looking for a list of compounds which accelerate decalcification or calcium excretion and/or decrease absorption of calcium, but am coming up short.

So far I have:
- Calcium/VitD/VitK restricted diet (or fasting)
- Increased dietary phosphorous
- Whole body acidification
- Furosemide (maybe not, but could be useful with calcium restricted diet)
- Dietary Oxalates
- Dietary Phytic Acid
- EDTA (maybe, a bit? But it looks like it has to be IV)
- Upregulate inflammation
- Excess dietary sodium intake (maybe - likely a J-curve, very high and very low levels)

Does anyone else have anything to add to this list. @gbolduev - has anything been useful for you in the past? I've heard malic acid might be useful, but I haven't found much info yet.

 

[TubZy]

Seems like you have it listed already, but vitamin K2 MK4 high dose worked very well. Let me see if I can find the study again.

 

[mattyb]

Vitamin K2 MK4 is literally what fucked me up in the first place. I took it in 2015 (testing out to see if it would help with hair loss) and I've had constochondritis since, likely because it calcified the hyaline cartilage in my rib cage. It massively upregulates Vitamin D, osteogenesis and calcium retention. It does the opposite of decalcification. It puts calcium into cells, doesn't take it out.

I feel like an idiot having taken it honestly. It's great for people who have problems retaining calcium though.

 

[Canari]

What agents are known decalcifiers, as in they remove calcium from the body for excretion from urine?

As i have some fibrosis and high Ca ratios, and low phosphorus, this is interesting for me!
Is adding K and P also a solution?

Can those protocols remove calcium from bones or teeth too?

I do not understand the purpose of uping inflamation... ?

 

[jaa]

Vitamin K2 MK4 is literally what fucked me up in the first place. I took it in 2015 (testing out to see if it would help with hair loss) and I've had constochondritis since, likely because it calcified the hyaline cartilage in my rib cage. It massively upregulates Vitamin D, osteogenesis and calcium retention. It does the opposite of decalcification. It puts calcium into cells, doesn't take it out.

I feel like an idiot having taken it honestly. It's great for people who have problems retaining calcium though.

I thought K2 kept calcium away from soft tissues?

 

[mattyb]

I thought K2 kept calcium away from soft tissues?

Hyaline cartilage is not like most soft tissues, as it has chondroblasts/chondroclasts which are virtually identical to osteoblasts/osteoclasts.

 

[mattyb]

As i have some fibrosis and high Ca ratios, and low phosphorus, this is interesting for me!
Is adding K and P also a solution?

Can those protocols remove calcium from bones or teeth too?

I do not understand the purpose of uping inflamation... ?

Yes, most will remove calcium from everywhere.

Some weirdos, like me, have really really good calcium deposition. My bones are super mineralized, so unfortunately when I have excess calcium my body has to put it somewhere else - like cartilage. I want things that will break down the calcium in cartilage and excrete it, and I'm willing to let some calcium go from the bones in order to accomplish this because it's not like I'm at any risk of osteoperosis. In the interim, I'm doing a lot of stuff to keep my teeth healthy because that's the one part of me I don't want getting affected.

 

[Nina]

Avoiding too much co2, as it will put excess calcium in the cell (respiratory acidosis state)

 

[opiath]

Lowering copper or a diet with lower respiratory quotient.

 

[Canari]

Avoiding too much co2, as it will put excess calcium in the cell (respiratory acidosis state)

Wouldn't we want to do this if we have alkalosis in the tissues?

respiratory quotient.

What's this!?

 

[Canari]

My bones are super mineralized,

How did you test this?
So I guess you have super good teeth?

What's about anti-vitamin K?

 

[mattyb]

Avoiding too much co2, as it will put excess calcium in the cell (respiratory acidosis state)

Actually uncompensated respiratory acidosis would be helpful, since this would acidify things and make calcium ionizable and ready for excretion. Compensated respiratory acidosis would be bad though. Metabolic acidosis will dramatically increase osteoclast activity, so that would be good.

This makes me think that building up to running +100km per week may be another strategy. The heavy breathing from running would mobilize the rib cartilage and the acidosis from exercise would help pull calcium from the rib cage. If I supplement with collagen during this, it may also help rebuild that cartilage without calcium deposition.

Lowering copper or a diet with lower respiratory quotient.

Why do you say lowering copper? What's the reasoning behind this?

Having low RQ would make sense, since this would mean blood is high in fatty and keto acids.

How did you test this?
So I guess you have super good teeth?

What's about anti-vitamin K?

I had access to an HR-pQCT when I worked in a bone research lab. I got a bone analysis that you can't get anywhere else, it looks not just superficially at the bone, but actually shows you a cross-section of the bone. I had one of the highest trabecular densities anyone had seen there.

Yes, my teeth have always been very good. Never required any dental work, no cavities, no gum disease, etc.

 

[Nina]

Actually uncompensated respiratory acidosis would be helpful, since this would acidify things and make calcium ionizable and ready for excretion. Compensated respiratory acidosis would be bad though. Metabolic acidosis will dramatically increase osteoclast activity, so that would be good.

This makes me think that building up to running +100km per week may be another strategy. The heavy breathing from running would mobilize the rib cartilage and the acidosis from exercise would help pull calcium from the rib cage. If I supplement with collagen during this, it may also help rebuild that cartilage without calcium deposition.



Why do you say lowering copper? What's the reasoning behind this?

Having low RQ would make sense, since this would mean blood is high in fatty and keto acids.



I had access to an HR-pQCT when I worked in a bone research lab. I got a bone analysis that you can't get anywhere else, it looks not just superficially at the bone, but actually shows you a cross-section of the bone. I had one of the highest trabecular densities anyone had seen there.

Yes, my teeth have always been very good. Never required any dental work, no cavities, no gum disease, etc.

How does it make calcium ready for excretion? As it will go into your cells when you have too much co2.

Copper increases calcium as stated by hair analysis companies.

 

[ruprmurdoch]

Vitamin k2 mk7- increace calcitonin, so puts calcium to your bones from veins. I think this is a decalcyfying agent also, beacuse calcium goes where it have to.

 

[mattyb]

How does it make calcium ready for excretion? As it will go into your cells when you have too much co2.

Copper increases calcium as stated by hair analysis companies.

If you are in acidosis, it means that calcium is ionized and pulled from tissues and unbound from proteins.The H+ ions create a physiochemical drive to dissociate sodium, potassium and calcium from the bone. If the acidosis is sustained, it stimulates osteoclasts to begin breaking down the bone. This is because acidosis inhibits the intestinal absorption of calcium, and in order to maintain blood levels of calcium the body pulls it from the bone.

CO2 doesn't exist primarily as CO2 in the blood. Most CO2 is converted to HCO3-, which is alkalizing, and this will put calcium into tissues. Respiratory acidosis is when CO2 is too high and there's too much H2CO3 (there might be a probelm with carbonic anhdrase if this happens), which is acidic - this is usually acute or it's eventually compensated by an increase in HCO3- or a change in respiratory drive.

The high CO2 of respiratory acidosis slightly compensates for this, since CO2 is used to form the calcium carbonate in bone. So it's effect on calcium loss is not as significant as metabolic acidosis. But overall, any acidosis (metabolic or respiratory) pulls calcium from tissues.

 

[TubZy]

Vitamin K2 MK4 is literally what fucked me up in the first place. I took it in 2015 (testing out to see if it would help with hair loss) and I've had constochondritis since, likely because it calcified the hyaline cartilage in my rib cage. It massively upregulates Vitamin D, osteogenesis and calcium retention. It does the opposite of decalcification. It puts calcium into cells, doesn't take it out.

I feel like an idiot having taken it honestly. It's great for people who have problems retaining calcium though.

Interesting, that is very new to me, I'll have to check it out

 

[IHateFin]

What agents are known decalcifiers, as in they remove calcium from the body for excretion from urine? I have been looking for a list of compounds which accelerate decalcification or calcium excretion and/or decrease absorption of calcium, but am coming up short.

So far I have:
- Calcium/VitD/VitK restricted diet (or fasting)
- Increased dietary phosphorous
- Whole body acidification
- Furosemide (maybe not, but could be useful with calcium restricted diet)
- Dietary Oxalates
- Dietary Phytic Acid
- EDTA (maybe, a bit? But it looks like it has to be IV)
- Upregulate inflammation
- Excess dietary sodium intake (maybe - likely a J-curve, very high and very low levels)

Does anyone else have anything to add to this list. @gbolduev - has anything been useful for you in the past? I've heard malic acid might be useful, but I haven't found much info yet.

msm also breaks up calcium deposits in the body. it will also rid of toxic metals too so thats a plus and yuou piss it all out.

 

[jacknap]

Vitamin K2 MK4 is literally what fucked me up in the first place. I took it in 2015 (testing out to see if it would help with hair loss) and I've had constochondritis since, likely because it calcified the hyaline cartilage in my rib cage. It massively upregulates Vitamin D, osteogenesis and calcium retention. It does the opposite of decalcification. It puts calcium into cells, doesn't take it out.

I feel like an idiot having taken it honestly. It's great for people who have problems retaining calcium though.

shit so we shouldn't be taking k2? I do120mcg with my vitamin d3. before I did about 480mcg. Can't say i noticed anything bad or good tho.

 

[mattyb]

**** so we shouldn't be taking k2? I do120mcg with my vitamin d3. before I did about 480mcg. Can't say i noticed anything bad or good tho.

It really depends on the person, if you retain calcium, then K2 is no bueno. Low dose K2 is probably safe for most people though, but just keep in mind it raises vitamin D and calcium retention. I was taking super high doses though, much higher, sometimes more than 5mg per day topically. It was in a vain attempt to regrow hair :/

 

[Aleksandr]

Actually uncompensated respiratory acidosis would be helpful, since this would acidify things and make calcium ionizable and ready for excretion. Compensated respiratory acidosis would be bad though. Metabolic acidosis will dramatically increase osteoclast activity, so that would be good.

This makes me think that building up to running +100km per week may be another strategy. The heavy breathing from running would mobilize the rib cartilage and the acidosis from exercise would help pull calcium from the rib cage. If I supplement with collagen during this, it may also help rebuild that cartilage without calcium deposition.



Why do you say lowering copper? What's the reasoning behind this?

Having low RQ would make sense, since this would mean blood is high in fatty and keto acids.



I had access to an HR-pQCT when I worked in a bone research lab. I got a bone analysis that you can't get anywhere else, it looks not just superficially at the bone, but actually shows you a cross-section of the bone. I had one of the highest trabecular densities anyone had seen there.

Yes, my teeth have always been very good. Never required any dental work, no cavities, no gum disease, etc.

Maybe something like walking up and down a large outdoor stair would be better than running incase of injuries. It can really puff you out. Ive been doing a interval version: run up the stairs, then walk down them. Repeat. For 15min twice a week for some tennis fitbess

Btw Matty whats your genetic heritage? Do you think that could be responsible for retaining calcium? It seems like a lot of asian cultures would have developed with low dietary calcium, so i could imagine they would be better retainers