E COLI and PFS CFS

[Helen]

I wonder if people did the test for this in their stool and what results they got.

E coli if high can causes choline deficiency. and creating TMAO which could transfer NAFLD into NASH.

and if low it can cause vitamin K2 deficiency , folate, b12 def and choline intolerance may be?


when I was dealing with people with POIS, some of them could not tolerate probiotics at all. and got worse , but most of the probiotics have lacto and bifido.


Also https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/13433/PDF

@barbaar look how serotonin and melatonin affects this colonies. this tells you that flora is supportive mechanism in the body, it helps and changes with the balance of the body chemistry to support and help certan body chemistry

and may be some people by taking antibiotics kill their helper in the moment or may be even grow not helpers.


But from the fact how flora changes based on times of year. we can see that flora acts probably as a buffer/

 

[tanedout]

My beneficial e.coli was no existent on my test. I kept a record of other people who've done the testing;

Chi



Lactobacillis 4+

E-coli NG

Bifidobacterium 4+



Brongfogboy



Lactobacillis NG

E-coli NG

Bifidobacterium NG



LivingDead



Lactobacillus spp. NG

Escherichia coli 4+

Bifidobacterium spp. 4+



Slayo



Lactobacillus species *NG

Escherichia coli 4+

Bifidobacterium 1+



Nailedbymrck



Lactobacillus species *NG

Escherichia coli 4+

Bifidobacterium 3+



Blackbox



Lactobacillus species *NG

Escherichia coli 4+

Bifidobacterium 3+



Atticas



Lactobacillus species *NG

Escherichia coli 4+

Bifidobacterium 1+



Interwebs1987



Lactobacillus spp. NG

Escherichia coli 4+

Bifidobacterium 4+



whathaveIdone



Lactobacillis 1+

E-coli 2+

Bifidobacterium 2+



Bobby.Digital (PAS)



Lactobacillus spp. NG

Escherichia coli. 3+

Bilfdobacterium. NG



TanedOut (PAS)



Lactobacillus spp. NG

Escherichia coli. NG

Bilfdobacterium. 4+

 

[jinstewart]

Mine's here: https://hackstasis.com/threads/jin-...and-pathogens-feat-tei.1569/page-5#post-55328

 

[Helen]

My beneficial e.coli was no existent on my test. I kept a record of other people who've done the testing;

Mine was too. Not detectable.

My Story

My favorite probiotic: E.Coli Nissle 1917 (Mutaflor)


this is a very good website. created by a guy who went balls in into this flora stuff. @bruschi11

But he understands that SNPs predispose you to the changes in flora and liver.

to me flora is compensatory. to help the body .

 

[Helen]

@tanedout I hope it does not work this way. lets say fatty liver. certain flora changes. and then side effects of that flora. So I hope it is not like that, we change flora , we get rid of side effects, but worsen the real problem.

as an example, e coli metabolizes choline, what if in fatty liver choline is needed. and flora changes..

It would be interesting for you to try this mutaflor with low e coli, and see if that fixes you.

 

[Helen]

@tanedout Also we can use butyric and propionic acids. Some have high butyric and some propionic. which grows certain flora.

 

[Helen]

@tanedout thanks for posting other people tests. interesting to see that slow oxidizer Slayo, has high e coli. and you fast oxidizer have low e coli.

I think it is supportive. body changes the chemistry to provide support and make more vitamins for present body chemistry.

 

[tanedout]

@tanedout I hope it does not work this way. lets say fatty liver. certain flora changes. and then side effects of that flora. So I hope it is not like that, we change flora , we get rid of side effects, but worsen the real problem.

as an example, e coli metabolizes choline, what if in fatty liver choline is needed. and flora changes..

It would be interesting for you to try this mutaflor with low e coli, and see if that fixes you.

Yeah already tried mutaflor - i got a few months supply (has to be delivered refrigerated), but it just makes me totally constipated to the point where I could not continue. Tried it on and off a few times, but same result. Might give it another go alongside psyllium husks or something - still got loads in the fridge.

Currently giving choline a go actually (alongside TUDCA which I take anyway)

 

[tanedout]

This is quite interesting @Helen

In addition, some members of the gut microbiota can convert choline to trimethylamine, which can induce liver injury leading to steatohepatitis (
Chen et al., 2016). Therefore, changes in the gut microbiome have been linked to NAFLD and NASH

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(17)30206-1

So messed up gut bacteria -> fatty liver -> further liver issues, bile flow issues -> even more messed up gut microbiome -> vicious circle

 

[Helen]

This is quite interesting @Helen



https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(17)30206-1

So messed up gut bacteria -> fatty liver -> further liver issues, bile flow issues -> even more messed up gut microbiome -> vicious circle

messed up gut flora causes inflammation of the liver and converts NAFLD into NASH. which then causes fibrosis.

It is basically becaus of leaky gut. the convesion of NAFLD takes place to NASH.

so I think

folate metabolism mutations. or choline def, or bad diet., glutathione def. causes fatty liver. then bile problems, then SIBO, and NAFLD is going into NASH.

then NASH totally destroyes glutathione, this increases ammonia, and this blocks ATP and you are screwed.


Don't forget I posted 10 blood tests, from PFS people, with totally non existant folate metabolism.

Folate and choline are interconnected

since both make methyl donors.

so basically problems with folate= extra pressure on choline= fatty liver. and then vicious cycle.

 

[Helen]

So , need to get rid of SIBO, this stops conversion of NAFLD into NASH.

and then deal with NAFLD and folate metabolism. etc. otherwise SIBO will just come back in a second.

That is what we did on poiscenter.com.

some folks got cured, by taking xifaxan, and then supporting methylation. folate etc cycle.

 

[tanedout]

Folate and choline are interconnected

since both make methyl donors.

so basically problems with folate= extra pressure on choline= fatty liver. and then vicious cycle.

Interesting that choline is involved in the biosynthesis of SAMe. Makes me think of that study that showed taking SAMe mitigated accutane sides.

Choline and its metabolites serve three purposes: structural integrity and signaling roles for cell membranes, cholinergic neurotransmission(acetylcholine synthesis), and a source for methyl groups via its metabolite, trimethylglycine (betaine), which participates in the biosynthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAM).[10][11]

The function of choline is complex, and involves interplay with folate, methionine, and vitamin B12.[4]Methionine can be formed either from methyl groups derived from folate, or from methyl groups derived from betaine, which in turn receives its methyl groups from choline. Changes in one of these pathways are compensated for by the other. If neither pathway provides adequate methylation to produce methionine, its precursor, homocysteine, rises.[4]

Choline - Wikipedia

Also makes me think of the '8 tips for accutane' guy m=who recovered - he was taking choline and msm, so basically two things supporting that pathway

 

[barbaar]

My beneficial e.coli was no existent on my test. I kept a record of other people who've done the testing;

I did a pretty basic test too like a year ago. My e.coli was fine though, but enterococcus and lactobacillus were low.

 

[Helen]

@tanedout Also if you are blocking choline while you are on fin or other drugs, may be acetylcholine receptor overexpresses for some. and then after you come off. you get POIS.

since POIS people had success with acetylcholine blocking substances/

So some people were helped with choline and some were reacting to choline with POIS.

 

[Helen]

I did a pretty basic test too like a year ago. My e.coli was fine though, but enterococcus and lactobacillus were low.

yeah and you are slow oxidizer

 

[barbaar]

yeah and you are slow oxidizer

Also I was a little hungover then lol so maybe it's not 100% accurate.

 

[Orion]

Currently giving choline a go actually (alongside TUDCA which I take anyway)

What is your choline supp, and how much are you testing daily?

 

[tanedout]

What is your choline supp, and how much are you testing daily?

It's Now brand Choline & Inositol. I've used it before, and actually felt great on it for a period a few years back, but there was a reason why I stopped, but I can't remember.

I'm only just taking very small amounts of an opened capsule as I'm now very sensitive to any supplements, but hope to work up to a full cap (which is 250mg of each)

 

[supernature]

It's Now brand Choline & Inositol. I've used it before, and actually felt great on it for a period a few years back, but there was a reason why I stopped, but I can't remember.

I'm only just taking very small amounts of an opened capsule as I'm now very sensitive to any supplements, but hope to work up to a full cap (which is 250mg of each)

Arent they hitting each other actually, lowering the effect of each or there must be taken only together ?

 

[tanedout]

Arent they hitting each other actually, lowering the effect of each or there must be taken only together ?

To be honest I'm not sure why they're paired up in this supplement. I always get Now brand stuff if I can, and they only sell Choline with Inositol. It's sold as supporting the nervous system, and fatty acid metabolism, but really those are benefits from Choline from what I've read.

Inositol does seem to have some benefits, like being an anti-imflammatory, and boosting glutathione levels.