FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)

[Helen]

Check the ‘detox protocol for dummies’ thread. It’s all there. It’s hard to follow every step since it changes occasionally, but I think I’ve followed it pretty strictly (HCL instead of bile acids and no Hydrogen water).

Sometimes it is better to use Phenylalanine instead of tyrosine for this. You can test it out.

 

[Continuous Heal]

I'm very interested in understanding the bile acid and phospholipid connection.

Elsewhere in the forum you will have seen me indicate that phosphatidylserine is the only supplement in my entire struggle with PFS that I can say for certain helped me, and helped me meaningfully.

I am also in the midst of a digestive struggle, with h pylori, and general discomfort over the last year or longer. Could the weakened resistance in my stomach be connected to a lack of bile acids? Did the PS prove so helpful because I've been unable to generate my own?

 

[Yura]

Heh it's funny I can feel on my left side lower stomach my large intestine full of fucking shit. I can move with it. It's like a snake.. Dehydration + lack of bile = shit is dry and looks like rabbit poop lol.. Only thing that can help is like 1 l of water with like tbsp of sea salt drinked at once first thing in the morning. This will whip the colon with the salted water. Otherwise without bile as a lubricant. Nothing is moving.. I am wondering what will happened first. Bile production or colon cancer heh..

 

[BeLikeWater]

ive gotten my aldosterone tested, it is not high, it is low

Did you take minoxidil?

 

[Kjbigman]

Here is a theory.


Finasteride is a progestin like progesterone. IT raises potassium in the cell. By doing this it increases metabolism of people who take it. Sugar metabolism is closed in hairloss people and taking finasteride bypasses the regulation, same as taking progesterone , and same as taking thyroid hormone. This causes oxidative stress. Finasteride by binding NADPH kills glutathione and recycling . This causes faster metabolism but with oxidative stress. When you go off finasterid metabolism goes back down, but now it can not even lift up at all. Since you killed all glutathione enzymes, they simply dont work now. So sugar metabolism does not go up. Same situation as steroid diabetes. Or diabetes that you can get from taking progesterone.

Now you are stuck with very low metabolism and anything that you use to speed it up contantly backfires. Sugar - no good, salt no good, Thyroid= inflammation. Everything that you use to speed makes you feel better with on symptom and makes you super inflammed. To open up the metabolism you need to support glutathione enzymes , glutathione transferase and glutathione peroxidase. This will open up your sugar metabolism and it will metabolize finasteride out of your body. Since it is still in your body.

Also since finasteride kills NADPH and glutathione recylcling , it lowers glutathione levels. glutathione breaks bonds in glycoprotein B. Which is reponsible for virus replication. If there is no glutathione there is a a lot of glycoprotein B and you get mono or EBV. Virus is an outcome of low glutathione.



Finasteride is a progestin which does not convert to cortisol or metabolites like progesterone does. Since it does not convert to metabolites as progesterone it lowers NADPH. This takes down 5 alpha reductase. Also since progestin does not convert into cortisol, it puts pressure on cortisol and this weakly inhibits the enzyme that breaks down cortisol which is 5 beta reductase. Most of the symptoms while on fin are coming from inhibiting 5 beta reductase enzyme. the higher dosage of Fin , the more you inhibit this enzyme. and the higher cortisol goes.. 5 beta reductase is the enzyme which is responsible for bile acids. This is why progestins stop bile production. Actually progesterone in certain cases could do the same.

So while you are taking finasteride, you lower NADPH and you lower NADP , you stop 5alpha reductase and you stop 5 beta reductase. Most of the symptoms come from 5 beta reductase . And the higher fin dose the more you inhibit this enzyme. This is why if you found the optimal dosage not to inhibit this enzyme you would be only inhibiting 5 alpha reductase and would not have problems while on fin.


Now. After you come off fin. I assume. your NADPH production spikes back up really high. Since fin was blocking it. while you were on it. . This is why you see high DHT in some of the PFS guys. This high NADPH inhibits 5 beta reductase even further. Since 5 alpha reductase works on NADPH, but 5 beta reductase's end product is NADPH. SO when you come off fin, your NADPH production is high , and 5 beta gets inhibited even more. Your bile acids are zero now. your fat solubles are zero, and also your cortisol is high and aldo is high , since 5 beta reductase does not break them down. You are in alkalosis. and your fat digestion is zero.

So once again. When you are on fin , since fin raises metabolism but does not convert to cortisol like progesterone should have. It lowers both 5 alpha and 5 beta reductase.

But when you go off fin, this increases 5 alpha back to normal and beyond , but it totally inhibits 5 beta even more since NADPH decreases 5 beta


This is why andro works( inhibits 5 alpha) , 5 alpha inhibitors work, licorice works( increases cortisol) and this pushed 5 beta higher, dexamethasone , and progesterone. amino acids, zinc finger , RU lowers metabolism and increases cortisol and 5 beta increased . they all decrease need for cortisol and this increases 5 beta reductase.

So PFS is a imbalance between NADP and NADPH after you come off FIN. NADPH is what 5 alpha works on, and NADP is what 5 beta works on. NADPH is also made out of NADP. So this makes 5 beta and 5 alpha 2 enzymes that go opposite of each other. NADP to NADPH ratio. when NADP high 5 beta is higher, when NADPH is high , 5 beta is lower.


We will be trying many things to put 5 beta back online.





This is basically more precise explanation of the receptor theory but from enzymes view.

For those who are still taking fin, you can always adjust dosage so you dont inhibit 5 beta reductase too much , and this way you will be on fin with minimal sides . If you adjust the dosage lower, this will grow even more hair since you wont be experiencing protein wasting hairloss like in hyperthyroidism. Fin is just uncontrollable progesterone. Fin does not convert to cortisol, but causes the rise of metabolism. When metabolism rises progesterone converts to cortisol to make more sugar and aminos. But fin cant convert , and if you take too high of a dose it is like being hyperthyroid. Puts too much pressure on cortisol and closes down 5 beta reductase with bad sides coming from 5 beta reductase

IF you test your 5 beta reductase and make sure it is good, you can stay on fin without sides


For people who went off the fin . @TubZy and I are trying different protocols to fix this situation more precise. But you have many ways to manipulate NADP NADPH ratio, knowing this mechanism that we outlined above

I hope this explains why people feel bad on anything that increases 5 alpha reductase.



Finasteride. binds NADPH. NADPH recycles glutathione. lack of glutathione causes complete closure of sugar metabolism. Since glutathione is needed to get rid of hydrogen peroxide and glutathione is needed in glutathione transferase to get rid of toxins and drugs, including finasteride. So finasteride stops its own metabolism and I would assume can even build up thru the years.



So you need to increase glutathione transferase and also increase NADPH . glutathione transferase has histidine in it. Also it asks for tyrosine serine and cysteine to activate the glutathione. So when your go toxic in finasteride or other drugs you can go low on tyrosine, since tyrosine will be used for glutathione transferase and tyrosine kinase. This causes low dopamine ( sex drive) low thyroid, and lack of bioavailable copper and vitamin C ( emotions) since when the body becomes toxic it goes into alkalosis ( uses hydrogen for redox reactions) , and this does not allow dopamine conversion into adrenaline which is done with copper and ascorbate. ( copper stays biounavailable and you can get many symptoms of its toxicity) So you can try to take tyrosine or Phenylalanine( which is better) with lyposomal glutathione( this will increases glutathione transferase and get rid of build up of fin), b 50 vitamins( not methylated) , vitamin C, eat good fats( butter) and take bile acids. and shilagit , also cysteine selenium histidine. and serine. Also you can take SOD components, zinc copper manganese chromium. this will metabolize finasteride out of your body.

Basically this will allow your sugar metabolism to go back up on line, which will allow your body to use adrenaline, Since if there is no sugar, there is no CO2 production in the cell. If there is no CO2 then body cant breath it out. And it will lower adrenaline. And close the sugar metabolism. And it will use protein for energy, which will have side effects as high ammonia and brain fog.


Finasteride impairs bile flow, and impairs 5 beta reductase.
5 beta reductase makes your bile acids, without bile acids you will have a build up of cholesterol and malabsorption of fats. and mainly phospholipids and you will have bilirubin stones in your gallbladder which completely blocks all your bile flow.

this will cause deficiency of lipids needed for the brain , sex, fat soluble vitamins etc and you will have very thick blood since cholesterol wont be used and wont be disposed off.

This is why I said to do liver flushes all the time. Also you can take bile acids. chenodeoxycholic acid plus cholic acid. 5 beta reductase makes those . These 2 acids will dilute all your stones and let you absorb all the needed lipids from the diet. After years of fin your gallbladder had zero bile acids, means it is solid green mass with very little bile.

Also you need to eat good fats, plus vitamin Bs, since b vitamins make NADPH and NADP those are needed for 5 alpha and 5 beta reductases. Also you can add vitamin C , since cholesterol is converted down the line into 5 beta reductases by vitamin C and NADPH which fin impairs.

https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formu...=1524070039&sr=8-1&keywords=bile+acid+factors

https://www.amazon.com/Allergy-Rese...70118&sr=8-2&keywords=nt+factor+energy+lipids

And vitamin B vitamins plus vitamin C



Plus flush the liver over and over again. This is the problem in PFS

Delta 4-3-oxosteroid 5 beta-reductase deficiency: failure of ursodeoxycholic acid treatment and response to chenodeoxycholic acid plus cholic acid.


@mattyb

I'm trying to figure this out, but I am confused, what do you mean by finasteride "puts pressure on cortisol?" Do you mean, on finasteride cortisol is too low (due to fin not converting) so the enzyme 5-beta reductase is reduced to prevent further cortisol break down?

 

[Ergogenic Health]

Just a heads up - SJW can reduce plasma concentration of Finesteride:

The effect of St. John's wort on the pharmacokinetics, metabolism and biliary excretion of finasteride and its metabolites in healthy men. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[RebelWithACause]

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/bi00072a028

Slow-binding leads to prolonged inhibition, even after drug levels drop.
Imagine taking the drugs for years. You need to speed up metabolism probably to lower it from the body faster.

Also:

Even though no permanent bond is formed:

• The EI* complex is extremely stable
• It can take hours to days to dissociate

So in practice:

• The enzyme is “stuck” inactive for a long time
• It looks like irreversible inhibition in real life

 

[RebelWithACause]

Combine with hypothyroidism and it probably takes months for the body to create new 5ar enzymes.

 

[bruschi11]

Combine with hypothyroidism and it probably takes months for the body to create new 5ar enzymes.

I think pfs, ERb just dies. So we can’t use our selenium well to make t3 as you say hypo.

 

[Yung_Geezer]

Would this be an appropriate thread to talk about the work that Dr. Will Powers has been doing?

 

[RebelWithACause]

Sure why not? Not much else happening at this point here lol

 

[RebelWithACause]

So what is FINASTERIDE. Is it like Helen claimed a progestin and raising metabolism. Danny Roddy also claimed it's like a "Frankenstein Progesterone". ChatGPT claims all types of things says it's mostly just an inhibitor, no real effects apart from that. Except that it is based on a steroid hormone and it competes with testosterone on receptor. I want to know what effect this drug has on the body.

This is the full name of finasteride: (1S,3aS,3bS,5aS,9aS,9bS,11aS)-N-(tert-butyl)-3-oxo-4-aza-5α-androst-1-ene-17β-carboxamide

Does it have effects like progesterone? Or is this not true. Does it act like nandrolone where it raises your metabolism like Helen said.

I noticed when I tested finasteride later on I felt lower metabolism. Not higher. I also know for one of the guys here it lowered his potassium on his hairtest (blocked cortisol).

Can someone give more insight? Whether you read it somewhere or your own ideas.

 

[RebelWithACause]

There is still so little information apart from "it blocks 5ar". Is that all it does? Is it purely a 5ar inhibitor. Or does it also have progesterone type of effects. For example.

 

[RebelWithACause]

Also if it lowers cortisol how does it? When 5ar blocked I assume cortisol will pool longer in the body because less is broken down into 5ar metabolites.

 

[RebelWithACause]

• an androgen-like molecule
• that’s been modified (notably the “4-aza” change)
• to bind to and block 5α-reductase, the enzyme that normally converts testosterone → DHT

• It has very weak direct hormonal activity
• It does not significantly activate androgen receptors (so it’s not acting like testosterone or DHT)
• It’s not meaningfully estrogenic or progestogenic in normal use

Info from ChatGPT.

 

[Yung_Geezer]

Sorry for late reply, but I'll get into the Dr Powers stuff without further ado, though I'll mention quickly that I've never sat down and read his posts in full, I've only gleamed through. I think I have the correct understanding but I'll post some links so anyone here can read for themselves.

So essentially, Dr Powers has observed that PFS (and PSSD?) sufferers have normal levels of T in their blood but not in their urine. His theory is that those that get PFS have some sort of mutation where we can't excrete T through our urine, and instead can only excrete it by converting it to DHT or E, so when we take a DHT blocker, it makes our system go haywire. He seems very confident that he's got the correct mechanism, but 1) is still accepting all the data he can get, and 2) the question of best treatment method(s) is still open.

You can read his latest post here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DrWillPowers/comments/1sbm8xq

He goes over some treatment methods he thinks patients should *not* do, and seems to think rn that temporary chemical castration might actually be the best treatment for PFS. Essentially just shutting the system down and giving it time to reboot.

Here's a ~7 minute video that very briefly goes over his theory and talks about data collection:

Basically, every PFS sufferer should do a male hormone panel, an androstanediol glucuronide blood test, and a DUTCH test, then send the results to [email protected] and/or Dr Powers' office.

As an aside, Dr Powers is a hormone doctor that works with trans patients, and has a controversial reputation in the trans community. This is another thing that I don't fully know rn, but my understanding is that his preferred method of HRT is an non-mainstream method. I think I've seen Powers himself say that he prefers his method because it's easier for patients on it to detransition if they choose, but I think it's been critiqued for being less effective than the mainstream method(s?). I fully trust his judgment about PFS causation, though his suggestions for treatment *maybe* should be taken with a grain of salt.

Okay, that's all for now.

 

[RebelWithACause]

I did the opposite I used HCG, Proviron, etc. and eventually got cured this way which all raise hormones higher than baseline. I do know people feel better castrated. I also felt better after I did TRT I stoppedcold turkey had very low testosterone levels and felt better in PFS than ever. Testosterone for some reason doesn't work the same as taking something like HCG or DHT/Proviron.

Could also just be receptors overly sensitive so you lower your hormones you feel better. Same as Helen and 100s of others proposed. But this is not a cure. To cure you have to press even harder on the receptors with like a high dosage of Proviron and then stop. Or very high B1 dosage. Etc. multiple ways to do it. But you will feel bad of course. This is also what Helen said and it worked for me. Then after I took a lot of stuff to recover my health more but had nothing to do with PFS.

Also some people were cured from using high dosages of Letrozole for months. Just to give examples. These are extreme measures but they worked.

I don't understand how people still walk with PFS after years. Within 5 years you can easily get to a point you are functional no matter how bad your case is. Except maybe if you are 50+ years old then it's a lot harder obviously. It just takes longer. Even then possible. Unless you do like me you take stupid shit like TRT and wrong stuff which I did. I made those mistakes. So I was cured only after like 6 years. But could of done it within 3 probably.

I was one of the worst case scenarios, my life was over I was close to become homeless non functional completely gone if you would of seen me you'd think I'd be some junkie on the streets. No nitric oxide, no libido, muscle loss, bone loss. Didn't have energy for anything was 80s years old in metabolism. I saw guys on this forum talk about their girlfriend and normal-ish life I was like how the fuck are you even able to do that. So yes different levels of course to it.

Here I am I don't have PFS anymore. Then I see guys they make videos starting a youtube channel about PFS but don't do anything themselves they wait for a solution. I didnt even have energy of capability of making a youtube channel when I had PFS. I don't get it. But I must be crazy myself. I also see this guy Mark on Twitter he does interviews, complains about PFS, etc. dude doesn't seem to do anything to get out of it.

Anyways I am not here to shit on PFS sufferers because yes it's a horrible thing to experience and I do feel for guys in PFS. Often it's not their fault. And learned helplessness is part of it. But even back on this forum then we had a few people who went really HARD at it. Most of those guys are PFS-free. Healthproblem-free? No. Just like me. But PFS free for sure.

And a lot of others who just sat and wanted to argue. I do understand cdsnuts a lot better now. He had a lot of people like that on his forum.

I hope this guy Dr. Will Powers can give people some solution or at least the courage to try some stuff.

 

[RebelWithACause]

That being said I'd love for someone to study the compound itself so we understand what it exactly is and what effect apart from blocking 5ar it can cause