General Chat

[opiath]

I think taking it together with vitamin C makes it the most absorbable.
The B5 and B6 vitamins I feel like for me last a long time so I don't take them every day.
I don't really understand by what mechanism biotin supports this protocol in a very high dose but I bought the powder and take 500mg-1g per day just in case.
Molybdenum is pretty important though. At least for me. Without it I get kidney pain, itchy/restless legs.
I used to be scared of it before because when I used to take 2-3mg in the past I was getting constipation but with EGCG I can handle 7-8mg just fine.

 

[opiath]

Btw interesting you said "Also I got restless legs and very sensitive teeth from too much zinc."
Why you think it was from zinc? I think copper toxicity pulls calcium from bones and teeth. Basically the body is trying to protect the tissues from oxidative damage from all that free copper. Maybe you redistributed crazy amounts of copper with that high dose histidine..?

It was from the zinc because both those symptoms go away when I do the HG7 without zinc.
Giving zinc solo just floods you with copper and iron in the bloodstream and they can't detox.

 

[Yura]

@opiath yeah B5 and B6 are B vits that stick around longer than other Bs. What about manganese. Based on hair tests it looks like I need it. Same thing chromium. Chromium is also copper antagonist that nobody is talking about..
Basically so far I wasn't taking it at once. I was doing EGCG on empty stomach to absorb as much EGCG as possible becaues, with breakfast selenium, Bs, with lunch chromium, manganese and with dinner zinc and molybdenum..
Over time iron and copper should go down. I just need to be careful to not lower ceruloplasmin too much. Because collagen breakdown is serious issues for me. But who knows how much it is low copper and how much oxidative stress from free copper..

 

[Yura]

@opiath
Jacob said recently
"
Im terrible at measuring how much egcg i take, but im having the most success with around 16 Caps of the horbach EGCG,

with around 75-100mg of zinc.

Im doing great with 2.5g of C.

Biotin I just throw a large amount under the tongue never measure.

B5 I take 1000mg

B6 300mg

And around 7.5mg of Molybdenum.

This dose is working well for me right now."

I don't know about this iron chelation thing with EGCG. I mean he is 5 years deep into this and he is still taking such insane doses of EGCG and his hemoglobin is on high end?
I don't think you can compare blood donations to taking EGCG. You can go anemic from low iron due to blood loss pretty fast.
Each 500ml of blood donation will drop feritin by 30-50. But Jacob is taking crazy doses of EGCG and still nothing. He thinkgs that it is because he has so much iron. I think it is nonsense. Maybe if he was 50yo eating last 20 years carnivore, but in his case?
Not to mention iron dominant people look older not child like. He was copper dominant.
It is interesting. It does something, but it is not chelating iron like blood loss that is obvious.. If it did he wouldn't need 16 caps of EGCG after 5 years of taking more EGCG than half of Japan population together over the life time hehe.. LOL

 

[opiath]

You don't go anemic after blood loss because you're suddenly iron deficient.
You get anemic because your bone marrow takes 8 weeks to replace the red blood cells.

Also ferritin in blood does not correlate directly with iron load and it carries a very minor amount of iron.
For example if you have a result of 100 ng/mL this means you have 500 micrograms of ferritin which carries 150 micrograms of iron.
It is used as a correlation marker but it becomes wildly inaccurate in a diseased state since it is influenced easily by inflammation, infection, liver disease, alcohol, riboflavin status, molybdenum and ceruloplasmin.

Do you realize also how much iron can people accumulate over a lifetime?
People with late stage Hemochromatosis are recorded to reach 40-50 grams of iron at the time of their death.
That's 10-15 times more then a healthy person.

I have no idea how much iron Jacob had when he started taking his full procotol but he said it was just 3 years ago when he got it to work and it took him 2 years until he was free of symptoms.

 

[Yura]

@opiath lol I know you don't go anemic suddenly after blood loss because you depleted iron. I even said that each 500ml of blood drops feritin by 30-50 points. So this way you deplete iron very effectively over time. Don't tell me that if you block another iron coming in that you could donate blood all the time as soon as your hemoglobin goes up after each blood donation for years and years and not end up with iron deficiency. All those vegans especially females who are pale like ghosts are great example of that and they lose blood just from periods let alone bleeding out 500ml per section lol..
I also understand that person in older age can accumulate insane amounts of iron, but that is not the case for Jacob. Not to mention that he was megadosing zinc long time before starting with HG7 which somewhat lowers iron absorption as well. So how he could harvest so much iron in his case. Not to mention iron dominant people look old not child like. Jacob is/was perfect example of estrogen/copper dominance not iron dominant.

Simply if he thinks that he has so much iron in him still after 1000 of EGCG bottles or whatever. I don't understand why he is not donating blood.
Because I am saying that if he started donating blood 5 years ago like 3 times a year at least. He would't need so much EGG pills that does we don't know what lol..
Every source I look says it can only block iron absorption, but it can't chelate iron out of the body that is already in tissues.
So to me it is very strange that nobody is questioning that. How it actually works, but at the same time nobody seems to do blood donations or at least talk about it which we know for sure lowers iron.
I mean you want to lower iron so you don't need to be brain surgeon to figure out tha the best way is to block more coming in and do some bleeding.
No Jacob keeps eating red meat, doesn't want to donate blood. He will keep eating a bottle of EGCG every other day for the rest of his life. LOL
Which is great he can do whatever he wants, but why nobody else is talking about it and just blindly follow what he does is like some cult shit.

Btw people report copper dumps/increase in ceruloplasmin after blood donations(the period when the body is forced to use stored iron to make new hemoglobin) as well.
Again nobody is talking about it. Because Jacob said so. LOL

 

[opiath]

You ask why nobody is talking about blood donations then you proceed to answer you own question by saying they lead to copper dumps.
Not only that but they put you in energy deficit and lowered aerobic capacity.
And you can only do them once every 2-3 months if you are not morally held up by the fact that unhealthy people are not the best blood donors.

Then you say nobody is talking about this.
You somehow missed the basic premise of his theory??
It's discussed on almost every page in two two-hundred page threads.
He explains it in multiple places using his mumbo jumbo science but you have to see it for its abstract value.

The core theory is copper and iron are accumulating in alternating layers in tissues.
It's like a stack (First-In Last-Out) if you know software.
Everytime you remove a layer by chelating one metal you are forced to deal with the other metal.
When you remove a lot of iron suddenly you have to deal with a lot of copper.
Until that copper is cleared up the iron is not going to leave tissues by itself anymore.
If you are getting worse you are just stacking layers on top of layers.
To get better you need an approach that handles them both at the same time.

The problem originates because we have tons of copper in foods we eat.
When you accumulate a bit of copper this increases your iron absorption.
You talk a lot about ceruloplasmin but its main function is not fixing your collagen, its for iron delivery to tissues.
This is what copper proteins do - change iron redox state so its transported to cells.
Hephaestin protein: it transports iron from your small intestine to bloodstream.
Ceruloplasmin protein: loads iron onto transferrin so its delivered to tissues.

 

[Yura]

@opiath "
You ask why nobody is talking about blood donations then you proceed to answer you own question by saying they lead to copper dumps.
Not only that but they put you in energy deficit and lowered aerobic capacity.
And you can only do them once every 2-3 months if you are not morally held up by the fact that unhealthy people are not the best blood donors."

copper dump is a problem for us when you know how to bind it chelate it with histidine, molybdenum etc.?
I would think that is exactly what we want and I was hoping that is exactly what EGCG would do for me.
Jacob is talking all the time how EGCG would give him or his sister/girlfriend high copper symptoms.
So why bleeding is the problem when it should do the same thing.
Yes it will leave you depleted. Especially if you hace CFS, hypothyroid etc.. Which I learned the hard way..
For that reason bleeding small amounts more often is ideal. If you can't do it yourself and feed toilet with your blood(no problem with that moral stuff lol) you can go more often for blood testing..
I am not saying do this or that. I am saying using combination of EGCG, blocking absorption and some bleeding is probably ideal. To speed up the process.
Jacob is doing this 5 years. He ingested amounts no 99,99% of people will ever do and still takes 16 caps of EGG a day really?

Btw the argument that donating blood is not moral if you are not 100% healthy is hilarious to be honest. You think everybody else who is donating doesn't have all kinds of toxicities? The person can be perfectly heatlhy, but have high level of all kinds of things from microplastic, pesticides, herbicides, heavy metals. all kinds of pathogens and it goes on and on. The blood of human from this day and agre will never be perfect if you want enough blood to save lives.
When you need buch of blood or you die last thing you care about if there is something of range.

 

[Ingeno]

I tried different ratios of the HG7 protocol, with higher EGCG dosages I go anemic (pale skin, feeling very weak and lethargic). Also it drops my libido, makes me apathic and robotic, emotions getting sucked out of me. Also higher EGCG dosages give me right side liver discomfort. I do like the theory behind it but calibration by symptoms is hard for me because I don't get many sides besides the one I listed above. Also some slight testicular discomfort, tried increasing b6 and zinc but not doing anything.

I did use NAC and other chelators in the past and I think the creator of the protocol said that those people might need other ratios. Biotin also doesn't really dissolve quickly under the tongue, taking 2 grams and it clumps for 30 seconds or so.

@opiath any ideas?

 

[opiath]

I tried different ratios of the HG7 protocol, with higher EGCG dosages I go anemic (pale skin, feeling very weak and lethargic). Also it drops my libido, makes me apathic and robotic, emotions getting sucked out of me. Also higher EGCG dosages give me right side liver discomfort. I do like the theory behind it but calibration by symptoms is hard for me because I don't get many sides besides the one I listed above. Also some slight testicular discomfort, tried increasing b6 and zinc but not doing anything.

I did use NAC and other chelators in the past and I think the creator of the protocol said that those people might need other ratios. Biotin also doesn't really dissolve quickly under the tongue, taking 2 grams and it clumps for 30 seconds or so.

@opiath any ideas?

I think there are knowledge "gaps" in the protocol about other mineral deficiencies and how different genetics influence your needs to each of the supplements.
Like for example difference in genetics that affect GABA and Acetylcholine determine how your body responds to Zinc/B6 and B5.
For slow oxidizer zinc has one effect, for fast oxidizer zinc has another effect.
People vary a lot in COMT speed also.
Slow COMT would make you intolerant to high doses of EGCG. Especially if your methylation is fucked up too.
Fast COMT means you can take a ton of EGCG and metabolize it in a few hours.
Doesn't mean you dont chelate iron with slow COMT. Just means you have to take lower.

Since you mention anemic symptoms, loss of libido, apathic and robotic this for me screams low estrogen activity.
And usually estrogen is not low because you have too much zinc but because there is an inbalance between steroid synthesis and zinc.
This happens exactly when manganese is low. Manganese increases steroidogenesis which will increase estrogen.

Also biotin is intimately is connected to manganese.
It could explain why you cant take more biotin.
The enzyme which biotin increases the most is Pyruvate carboxylase. It's a manganese enzyme.
It's the secondary entrypoint of glucose into mitochondria. It's why we can make fat from sugar but we cant make sugar from fat. Since fat has only one entrypoint while glucose has two. To make fat or sugar you have to enter mitochondria from 2 doors so you dont deplete the krebs cycle metabolites

I remember in 2017 when I was severely deficient in manganese I would get crazy reactions from 10mg of biotin.
Now I take 1 gram and feel nothing.
Jacob doesn't think it's relevant probably but he said before recovering he used to eat brown rice everyday which is a very rich source of manganese.
You can try to take it for few days to see if it makes you tolerate the protocol. No need to overdo it though.
If you are deficient it will dramatically increase your zinc need.
You may need 100-200mg of zinc to offset 8mg of manganese since it increases acetylcholine a lot which can push you in respiratory acidosis until you retain the zinc to buffer it.
Other nutrients like Inositol, Iodine, Selenium, Glycine are not dicussed much but they can also influence how you respond to the supplements.
Given enough time you absorb them over time though. Even if the protocol creates a gap for them so they'll go up eventually.

 

[Ingeno]

@opiath

Thanks for the extensive response.

I forgot to add that I do already take manganese for a while, 5mg daily. I had a few 'okay' days when I tried low dose protocol, like 30mg zinc with 10% of the rest and only 1 EGCG capsule (338mg or so of EGCG) but Jacob isn't fan of doing low dose.

Also, biotin doesn't necessarily make me feel bad, I don't really feel anything of it. It's just that it doesn't dissolve immediately.

 

[opiath]

I'd say clumping or disolving depends more on acid-base balance then biotin status itself.
You're taking the pure powder and not the 1% biotin solution right?
What's your zinc dosage on most days?

 

[Ingeno]

I'd say clumping or disolving depends more on acid-base balance then biotin status itself.
You're taking the pure powder and not the 1% biotin solution right?
What's your zinc dosage on most days?

Yeah I use the pure biotin powder, also when I take 2 gram I don't really like the taste and even causes very slight nausea sometimes.

Zinc between 100/150mg when taking the full dose protocol. Not sure how accurate it is but I also always had low copper and iron on my HTMA's.

For me it's just really hard to calibrate because higher zinc usually causes more apathy and even lower libido and lower penile sensitivity. Increasing b6 seems to cause tingling in hands, increasing EGCG increases right side pain etc etc. My side effects seem to do the opposite of what Jacob writes in his protocol.

 

[Yura]

@Ingeno This idea that EVERYONE is iron let alone copper toxic is laughable. Especially for males it is not that common to be copper toxic.
What makes you think that you need to antagonize iron and copper with HG7?
Like I was hypothyroid, estrogen dominant, mercury, copper toxic my whole life and after that I fucked up even more when I started with steroids.
If you didn't have none of that I don't see why would you accumulate toxic amount of copper? You were vegetarian/vegan for long time or something?
Even that shouldn't be a problem. If your bile flow was working.. Mine was not working. That's why I know for sure I am loaded with copper, even with low copper on hair tests and most blood tests.. Just two times I had very high free copper like 20 times upper limit. That was some solid copper dump heh..

 

[Ingeno]

@Ingeno This idea that EVERYONE is iron let alone copper toxic is laughable. Especially for males it is not that common to be copper toxic.
What makes you think that you need to antagonize iron and copper with HG7?
Like I was hypothyroid, estrogen dominant, mercury, copper toxic my whole life and after that I fucked up even more when I started with steroids.
If you didn't have none of that I don't see why would you accumulate toxic amount of copper? You were vegetarian/vegan for long time or something?
Even that shouldn't be a problem. If your bile flow was working.. Mine was not working. That's why I know for sure I am loaded with copper, even with low copper on hair tests and most blood tests.. Just two times I had very high free copper like 20 times upper limit. That was some solid copper dump heh..

Well, it's said that fin inhibits bile flow so might have caused copper toxicity?

 

[Yura]

@Ingeno Well you should know if you have or don't have bile flow. It is pretty obvious by looking on your poop and how you handle fats etc..

 

[Ingeno]

@Ingeno Well you should know if you have or don't have bile flow. It is pretty obvious by looking on your poop and how you handle fats etc..

Usually normal brown color. Sometimes a bit darker or lighter depending on supplements. I do notice more liver discomfort lately though. Been doing liver flushes as well for couple of years.

 

[Yura]

@Ingeno your bile flow is probably ok. My poop is hard to pass(there is no lubricant) and color depends on food I was eating.. That is no bile flow...

 

[Yura]

@opiath I really like brown rice. Even parboiled brown rice it is like semi white/brown. I like the taste and that it is not constipating like white rice, but arsenic content is probably really high in brown rice right.. Also it is crazy high in phytic acid which if I take minerals with meals it will bind to it and lower absorption right.. For iron it is a good thing. For calcium, zinc etc.. not so much..

 

[opiath]

Phytic acid is pretty good actually.
Binds iron in the gut and some in the blood.
Also the body makes inositol from it which neutralizes copper toxic effects and makes bile more liquid.
Even if it binds some zinc who cares. One 30mg tablet is gonna be enough to offset 2 weeks of high phytate diet.