HIGH and LOW DHT and PFS cases ( protocols , explanations, theories)

[Helen]

in case of low androgens, I think AR is overexpressed which causes the body to shut down NADPH production.

this causes insulin to go very low, and this closes down the sugar entrance into the cell.


5AR is made with IRON sulfur and activated by NADPH.


NADPH is made with g6pd enzyme which is activate by INSULIN.

So TESTOSTERONE plus NADPH= DHT

Progesterone plus NADPH= active progesterone( precursor to allopregnenolone via 3 alpha hsd))


what these hormones do they simply BIND NADPH. so when you take progesterone, it binds NADPH. , when you take testosterone it also binds, NADPH.

Binds and lowers its levels.


So now lets assume we have very sensitive receptor for DHT. this tells the body to lower NADPH production.

and the body closes down INSULIN. and thus g6pd.


But NADPH is very important molecule, it protect your hemoglobin and lipid peroxidation etc. it makes tetrafolate. from folic acid, which then increased your histamine( libido )


This is why it is so imperative not to have it totally non existant.


this is why we see higher levels of B1 in blood than b2. since b2 is used up to kill NADPH thru NADPH oxidase



so I wonder if people with closed down insulin, just use insulin intranasaly, by this they will increase NADPH production in the brain.

which will increase 5AR in the brain, and allopregnenolone and eventually will downregulate AR receptors in the brain for the DHT.




Also dont forget that to make NADPH, people need manganese and B1. and insulin.

this is why zinc is given usually with manganese and b1,

since zinc can make AR stronger which will lower manganese and b1. since the body will try to lower NADPH

thus if you give zinc plus manganese and b1. this is like making AR stronger action with zinc, and manganese and b1 increases 5AR at the same time

SO you basically get the receptor density to downregulate.

since you keep the strength of the receptor STRONG with zinc and may be b6 ( or even cysteine) , and at the same time feed things that increase NADPH ( potassium , manganese , b1 )



This is why these people crash on androgens, since their insulin is zero, they dont produce NADPH.

and if they take testosterone - boom it binds their NADPH. and the get hemolytic anemia.


NADPH is needed to make nitric oxide. This is why it is a cofactor for DHT, so only when NADPH is present, DHT should be made and act.

if there is no NADPH , that means that there is no nitric oxide and DHT should not be made

Now think about if your DHT receptor is too strong. it creates HUGE problem. since DHT acts with zero nitric oxide present.

and you basically get POIS.

 

[RebelWithACause]

The scary thing is how much it looks like I have aged this year. Since I crashed, my face has gotten sunken in everywhere. Hard to tell if it is this damn PFS sickness or just age. But damn I shouldn’t look like this already.

Not saying you are wrong but I think it is two things:

- In PFS your estrogen does not work good - this causes dry face, more prone to wrinkles, this goes away mostly when you increase estrogen, face becomes puffier again

- When you take finasteride your face puffs up. I saw pictures of myself and my face was bloated AF. Round and feminine. Different from before finasteride. Looked like a female face.

So when you quit you get both at the same time. Which will look extreme in your eyes because you are used to looking at yourself with a finasteride face.

You are also using minoxidil which is notorious for fucking up skin. I also used it in the past, my skin improved a lot since quitting it.

I talked about this with my bodybuilder friends and they told me when they crash their estrogen they look twice as old. Wrinkles, sunken face, etc. I also experienced this. When I took DBOL last steroid cycle my face puffed up again and looked youthful. DBOL converts to estrogen like crazy.

LOW ESTROGEN activity will make you look old but also psychologically make you think you are ugly. You will also see ugliness in other people.

You have to fix everything then you will get back to normal. You probably took some damage but you will look better.

 

[TubZy]

this is exactly what I wrote. people with an overexpressed AR in the brain, will have low 5 AR in the brain.

and thus gaba wont work.


Usually people have libido on withdrawal from alcohol not on alcohol in PFS/

Yeah same, when I drink I feel a little more relaxed but that is about it and have some other wierd adrenline symptoms that I don't get sober. However when I wake up the next morning, anxiety is gone, libido is super high, nitric oxide back working again fully, no POIS and energy etc feel much better. I wonder if you kept doing that over and over if it would stick haha

Is that the snapback from alcohol since either happens during withdrawal?

 

[Helen]

Just wanted to repeat this in this thread.


Accutane activates liver X receptor which causes androgen deprivation same as fin.

After you quit accutane. your receptor is overexpressed. same as after 5 AR inhibitor


this is why your goal is to keep AR receptor strong and at the same time increase 5AR.

this will downregulate density of the receptor.

this is why if you take manganese this increase NADPH along with B1, since that is what pentose cycle runs on.

and if you take Zinc ,( normal dosage and B6 active, you will get zinc plus cysteine(( since b6 increases cysteine in the body )

Zinc plus cysteine is the attachement of the ARs to DNA. so basically if you increase those, your ARs attach better to the DNA, and this makes the AR stronger acting.

thus zinc plus b6 lower 5AR by making the receptor stronger.


but this will lower your NADPH even further, and that is why peopel feel like shit on zinc.

but if you add manganese or B1 to it. then zinc by making AR stronger wont be able to lower 5AR, since B1 will increase 5AR

And basically you put AR into the squeeze,

from one side you made it stronger with zinc and active b6.

and from another side you increase DHT levels with b1 and manganese.

And boom there is no other way out but to downregulate the DENSITY of the AR



Same can be down with HDAC inhibitors.


or you can juts destroy AR with sulphoraphane. Which is what I did.

So much easier, it is much better and easier to rebuild the AR than to destroy overexpressed density


You LOAD on sulphoraphane for 3 days, really high dosages. you will feel that it will totally destroy your ARs

you will feel like totally shit.


And then you drop it. and feed Bs multi or eat well, and you see yourself get better and better and better.

since the body starts raising insulin and NADPH production. and everything comes back on line. like your anxiety goes away, since 5AR rises, and your strength increases.

In one cycle you will see that you will be restored like 50%.


after every load you will feel improving by DOING ZERO.

At first you feel like the truck hit you , since you kill over expression of the AR, and insulin and 5AR are down still.

but then you feel daily they are coming back more and more online

I actually helped my insulin with potassium magnesium manganese electrolytes, B vitamins so it restores faster.

 

[D4n]

I think with fin it causes AR overexpression throughout the body, but in my case using minox just in the brain. I know it sounds stupid but would pure dht applied to the neck etc using a Carrier eventually downregulate AR in the brain ?

 

[Admiral]

There’s so many ideas being thrown around, I think it’s best to focuss on just a few and conclude whether it’s something that helps PFS or not.

Not sure I like the idea of messing with insuline.

 

[Helen]

There’s so many ideas being thrown around, I think it’s best to focuss on just a few and conclude whether it’s something that helps PFS or not.

Not sure I like the idea of messing with insuline.

read about it. its not going to effect your sugar levels in blood.

https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/intranasal-insulin.1438/

we have someone already trying it.

 

[RebelWithACause]

I think after this cycle I will take a month where I test the sulphoraphane. Then get a new hair test.

 

[Admiral]

read about it. its not going to effect your sugar levels in blood.

https://www.hackstasis.com/threads/intranasal-insulin.1438/

we have someone already trying it.

That’s interesting indeed, thanks. Sounds safe and non invasive , though I’ll sniff anything. I’m following his progress. Won’t be easy to get my hands on if I am ever considering this, though. Seems like it could definitely be something for me as you described me in a nutshell there (low androgens, low insuline).

We do need some more structure here with what kind of protocols are for which body type, just to steer people in the right direction a bit.

I’d try sulphoraphane loading as well, if I knew it would be appropiate for my body type.

 

[Helen]

IMO

NADPH does not only make DHT , but also other hormones,

so receptors could be overexpressed fo other hormones also, so all these regimens depend on oxidation rates,


thus some people get copper in TEI and some people get zinc.


this is why some people get better on estrogen things and some people get worse since estradiol is also made with NADPH

some people improve on soya and some people get PFS from soya.

So we should not forget about estrogen either, since it is also found low in CSF in PFS patients

So playing with estrogen can also cure some people

taht is why we had people cured on letro( AI) cure, meaning the guy cycled it and got cured. and we also had people feel better from soya.

but we dont know if soya acts as a serm or as estrogen.

 

[bruschi11]

The scary thing is how much it looks like I have aged this year. Since I crashed, my face has gotten sunken in everywhere. Hard to tell if it is this damn PFS sickness or just age. But damn I shouldn’t look like this already.

Hang in there man. Looks change based on body chemistry in snap of fingers. Incredible really.

 

[Admiral]

IMO

NADPH does not only make DHT , but also other hormones,

so receptors could be overexpressed fo other hormones also, so all these regimens depend on oxidation rates,


thus some people get copper in TEI and some people get zinc.


this is why some people get better on estrogen things and some people get worse since estradiol is also made with NADPH

some people improve on soya and some people get PFS from soya.

Exactly. Some sort of summary which protocol suits specific oxidation rates would be welcomed, I think.

I'm just lost in the idea hopping lately. Lately we've seen thought out suggestions such as:

• Progesteron + DHT + pregnenolone + estrogen
• Low dose finasteride
• Low dose DHT
• High dose sulphoraphane
• Insuline (hasn't been tried for PFS)

I feel we keep jumping on new ideas, while some of those might actually cure some of us. Not to mention we need blood levels and even hair tests to show oxidation rates for those who try this stuff.

Just my observations lately..

 

[Pedro melo]

The scary thing is how much it looks like I have aged this year. Since I crashed, my face has gotten sunken in everywhere. Hard to tell if it is this damn PFS sickness or just age. But damn I shouldn’t look like this already.

Exactly same things. I've got this black spots under my eyes. Yesterday we took a family foto and I have a twin brother. The difference is outrageous I was silo sad.
And today someone posted the photo on FB... And my hair still falling ... Oh well

 

[Helen]

Exactly same things. I've got this black spots under my eyes. Yesterday we took a family foto and I have a twin brother. The difference is outrageous I was silo sad.
And today someone posted the photo on FB... And my hair still falling ... Oh well

you see this could be from anemia which I am talking about.

 

[Pedro melo]

you see this could be from anemia which I am talking about.

But anemia is lack of iron right? I've checked ferrtin and all label regarding iron and it was good I guess

 

[Helen]

But anemia is lack of iron right? I've checked ferrtin and all label regarding iron and it was good I guess

anemia is not from lack of iron, anemia is from inability to protect red blood cells. called hemolytic anemia

same anemia happens in g6pd deficiency.

g6pd makes NADPH, NADPH makes DHT.

INSULIN makes g6pd.

so when people have g6pd deficiency , they get hemolytic anemia. and crash. and their bilirubin goes up, since they cant protect their red blood cells.

So in this situation in PFS it could be that insulin is shut down and people get some kind of hemolytic anemia. in which you run low on tetrafolate

and thus histidine is lost

 

[hairsuit]

Not saying you are wrong but I think it is two things:

- In PFS your estrogen does not work good - this causes dry face, more prone to wrinkles, this goes away mostly when you increase estrogen, face becomes puffier again

- When you take finasteride your face puffs up. I saw pictures of myself and my face was bloated AF. Round and feminine. Different from before finasteride. Looked like a female face.

So when you quit you get both at the same time. Which will look extreme in your eyes because you are used to looking at yourself with a finasteride face.

You are also using minoxidil which is notorious for fucking up skin. I also used it in the past, my skin improved a lot since quitting it.

I talked about this with my bodybuilder friends and they told me when they crash their estrogen they look twice as old. Wrinkles, sunken face, etc. I also experienced this. When I took DBOL last steroid cycle my face puffed up again and looked youthful. DBOL converts to estrogen like crazy.

LOW ESTROGEN activity will make you look old but also psychologically make you think you are ugly. You will also see ugliness in other people.

You have to fix everything then you will get back to normal. You probably took some damage but you will look better.

Brother, I will gladly be wrong. Lol. I would say you’re right about the estrogen. When I had it tested I was way low.

 

[Troy]

in case of low androgens, I think AR is overexpressed which causes the body to shut down NADPH production.

this causes insulin to go very low, and this closes down the sugar entrance into the cell.


5AR is made with IRON sulfur and activated by NADPH.


NADPH is made with g6pd enzyme which is activate by INSULIN.

So TESTOSTERONE plus NADPH= DHT

Progesterone plus NADPH= active progesterone( precursor to allopregnenolone via 3 alpha hsd))


what these hormones do they simply BIND NADPH. so when you take progesterone, it binds NADPH. , when you take testosterone it also binds, NADPH.

Binds and lowers its levels.


So now lets assume we have very sensitive receptor for DHT. this tells the body to lower NADPH production.

and the body closes down INSULIN. and thus g6pd.


But NADPH is very important molecule, it protect your hemoglobin and lipid peroxidation etc. it makes tetrafolate. from folic acid, which then increased your histamine( libido )


This is why it is so imperative not to have it totally non existant.


this is why we see higher levels of B1 in blood than b2. since b2 is used up to kill NADPH thru NADPH oxidase



so I wonder if people with closed down insulin, just use insulin intranasaly, by this they will increase NADPH production in the brain.

which will increase 5AR in the brain, and allopregnenolone and eventually will downregulate AR receptors in the brain for the DHT.




Also dont forget that to make NADPH, people need manganese and B1. and insulin.

this is why zinc is given usually with manganese and b1,

since zinc can make AR stronger which will lower manganese and b1. since the body will try to lower NADPH

thus if you give zinc plus manganese and b1. this is like making AR stronger action with zinc, and manganese and b1 increases 5AR at the same time

SO you basically get the receptor density to downregulate.

since you keep the strength of the receptor STRONG with zinc and may be b6 ( or even cysteine) , and at the same time feed things that increase NADPH ( potassium , manganese , b1 )



This is why these people crash on androgens, since their insulin is zero, they dont produce NADPH.

and if they take testosterone - boom it binds their NADPH. and the get hemolytic anemia.


NADPH is needed to make nitric oxide. This is why it is a cofactor for DHT, so only when NADPH is present, DHT should be made and act.

if there is no NADPH , that means that there is no nitric oxide and DHT should not be made

Now think about if your DHT receptor is too strong. it creates HUGE problem. since DHT acts with zero nitric oxide present.

and you basically get POIS.

So is this why I improved because I took potassium and then took b2 after taking the potassium?

Potassium increases dht and b2 increases the strength of the receptor like zinc.

 

[wuf]

in case of low androgens, I think AR is overexpressed which causes the body to shut down NADPH production.

this causes insulin to go very low, and this closes down the sugar entrance into the cell.


5AR is made with IRON sulfur and activated by NADPH.


NADPH is made with g6pd enzyme which is activate by INSULIN.

So TESTOSTERONE plus NADPH= DHT

Progesterone plus NADPH= active progesterone( precursor to allopregnenolone via 3 alpha hsd))


what these hormones do they simply BIND NADPH. so when you take progesterone, it binds NADPH. , when you take testosterone it also binds, NADPH.

Binds and lowers its levels.


So now lets assume we have very sensitive receptor for DHT. this tells the body to lower NADPH production.

and the body closes down INSULIN. and thus g6pd.


But NADPH is very important molecule, it protect your hemoglobin and lipid peroxidation etc. it makes tetrafolate. from folic acid, which then increased your histamine( libido )


This is why it is so imperative not to have it totally non existant.


this is why we see higher levels of B1 in blood than b2. since b2 is used up to kill NADPH thru NADPH oxidase



so I wonder if people with closed down insulin, just use insulin intranasaly, by this they will increase NADPH production in the brain.

which will increase 5AR in the brain, and allopregnenolone and eventually will downregulate AR receptors in the brain for the DHT.




Also dont forget that to make NADPH, people need manganese and B1. and insulin.

this is why zinc is given usually with manganese and b1,

since zinc can make AR stronger which will lower manganese and b1. since the body will try to lower NADPH

thus if you give zinc plus manganese and b1. this is like making AR stronger action with zinc, and manganese and b1 increases 5AR at the same time

SO you basically get the receptor density to downregulate.

since you keep the strength of the receptor STRONG with zinc and may be b6 ( or even cysteine) , and at the same time feed things that increase NADPH ( potassium , manganese , b1 )



This is why these people crash on androgens, since their insulin is zero, they dont produce NADPH.

and if they take testosterone - boom it binds their NADPH. and the get hemolytic anemia.


NADPH is needed to make nitric oxide. This is why it is a cofactor for DHT, so only when NADPH is present, DHT should be made and act.

if there is no NADPH , that means that there is no nitric oxide and DHT should not be made

Now think about if your DHT receptor is too strong. it creates HUGE problem. since DHT acts with zero nitric oxide present.

and you basically get POIS.

I just received my lab test back and I have already very high Zinc and high B6 (both above the range), could it be an idea at this point to add some Potassium, Manganese and B1 following this logic?

Could anyone give me a tip if it makes sense.
Thanks

 

[Helen]

I just received my lab test back and I have already very high Zinc and high B6 (both above the range), could it be an idea at this point to add some Potassium, Manganese and B1 following this logic?

Could anyone give me a tip if it makes sense.
Thanks

this is because you took high dose cortisol, you need to wait for the body to get balanced.