Ulcerative Colitis / IBD

Canari

Member
Messages
1,609
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>I am trying to build up a strategy too! But chelation is not in my program now. I have a friend who just did a srtong cleaning with natural stuff, and he has nerve pain now. He is long time vegan and almost cannot eat cooked food as they made him tired. He has good energy for 50, but I guess he has too much copper and it came out too strong.</t>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
<br/>
Could it be like this?<br/>
<br/>
There are 4 Ways. 2 of those you can live with .<br/>
(mito count based on body needs or activity)<br/>
<br/>
Way1: too high mito count (high fission) = UC <br/>
Way2: too low mito count = Urgency<br/>
Way3: good mito count / normal fission = perfect <br/>
Way4: low mito count / low fission (because mito count in general is kept low) = remission<br/>
<br/>
In way2 with too low mito count if you demand energy from the body with sports and lots of food. I think it is just not capable of doing that. That would only be possible with good mito count. (therefore pyruvate cant be used up? ->lactate ->acidosis)<br/>
<br/>
I think what caffeine, palmitic acid, smoking does is pushing my metabolism up. (mito count). Right now Im feeling UC coming slightly back and my urgency is pretty good. <br/>
<br/>
I think I was in Way4 for some time when I was younger. I was always eating very litte. Now with more need for energy? the mito count is not fitting to my daily "lifestyle". It fits that my problems started with increasing food intake without beeing hungry.<br/>
<br/>
With this thoughts in Way1 / Ulcerative colitis the need for energy / resources / detoxifier / vitamins etc is increased (and more wasteproducts etc) But the body cant do that. Its just too fast metabolism. And too fast increasing one.<br/>
<br/>
So I want normal mito count which stays in place. Low fission = metabolism wont upregulate that fast. <br/>
So is it downregulation of metabolims whats missing in UC? (mitochondrial fusion) Or fission is just to high.</r>
 

Aleksandr

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,285
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="1208" time="1507895387" user_id="114"><s>
HerrFisch post_id=1208 time=1507895387 user_id=114 said:
</s>
One idea I just had.<br/>
<br/>
My body tries to lower everything (metabolism). So thyroid,adrenals go low. Methylation goes low. <br/>
To keep methylation down Copper is made biounavailable.(very high excess copper in hair test 16 (range1-4)) <br/>
But copper is also needed for :<br/>
<br/>
"It is needed in the final part of the glycolysis or Krebs energy cycle called the electron transport system. Any problem here causes fatigue, depression and other low energy problems."<br/>
<br/>
Also Copper is stimulatory for adrenals and thyroid. So easy way to keep those down is making copper biounavailable too. <br/>
<br/>
So everything leads to copper being now biounavailable but excess in tissue. <br/>
<br/>
Dr. Paul Eck called copper the “emotional mineral”. -> Nervous system dysfunctions.?
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

I'm curious since you have high copper, maybe nonavailability. Do you consider yourself robot-like or very emotional? What side of the spectrum?</r>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><MENTION><s>[mention]</s>mattyb<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
The only way to get rid of too much fission is fasting right? <br/>
Or do you think there are other ways? <br/>
Could smoking have something to do with fission? There are some articles about smoking and CU. <br/>
And for me it helps both problems.</r>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><MENTION><s>[mention]</s>gbolduev<e>[/mention]</e></MENTION> <br/>
I see you talking a lot about fasting for certain diseases. <br/>
Im not sure if you know something about mitochondria fission & its connection to UC but would you agree with mattyb that for mitochondrial fission fasting would be the best and maybe only thing?</r>
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="1227" time="1507901471" user_id="114"><s>
HerrFisch post_id=1227 time=1507901471 user_id=114 said:
</s>
@mattyb <br/>
<br/>
Could it be like this?<br/>
<br/>
There are 4 Ways. 2 of those you can live with .<br/>
(mito count based on body needs or activity)<br/>
<br/>
Way1: too high mito count (high fission) = UC <br/>
Way2: too low mito count = Urgency<br/>
Way3: good mito count / normal fission = perfect <br/>
Way4: low mito count / low fission (because mito count in general is kept low) = remission<br/>
<br/>
In way2 with too low mito count if you demand energy from the body with sports and lots of food. I think it is just not capable of doing that. That would only be possible with good mito count. (therefore pyruvate cant be used up? ->lactate ->acidosis)<br/>
<br/>
I think what caffeine, palmitic acid, smoking does is pushing my metabolism up. (mito count). Right now Im feeling UC coming slightly back and my urgency is pretty good. <br/>
<br/>
I think I was in Way4 for some time when I was younger. I was always eating very litte. Now with more need for energy? the mito count is not fitting to my daily "lifestyle". It fits that my problems started with increasing food intake without beeing hungry.<br/>
<br/>
With this thoughts in Way1 / Ulcerative colitis the need for energy / resources / detoxifier / vitamins etc is increased (and more wasteproducts etc) But the body cant do that. Its just too fast metabolism. And too fast increasing one.<br/>
<br/>
So I want normal mito count which stays in place. Low fission = metabolism wont upregulate that fast. <br/>
So is it downregulation of metabolims whats missing in UC? (mitochondrial fusion) Or fission is just to high.
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Yeah you're definitely getting it!<br/>
<br/>
I like to think of things as part of stages or a cycle, so here is a pretty clear way to think about it.<br/>
<br/>
1. Original tissue injury (could be from anything - radiation, virus, toxin, etc.)<br/>
↓<br/>
2. Mitochondrial Fission begins in the affected tissue. Metabolism is increased in that tissue - minor to no symptoms yet. Metabolism in all other tissues remains normal.<br/>
↓<br/>
3. Buildup of toxic byproducts of metabolism, lack of neutralizers (SOD, catalase, etc.) - symptoms begin flaring up<br/>
↓<br/>
4. Immune system reacts to damage, antibodies are made, inflammation is at a peak - primary disease symptoms are at their worse. Cells are being damaged from toxic metabolic byproducts and toxic secretions from the immune system who thinks there's a pathogen causing the damage.<br/>
↓<br/>
5. Body releases anti-inflammatory cascade (e.g. cortisol, IL-10) to try and dampen immune response. The anti-inflammatory response helps decrease damage from the immune system, but the cortisol actually increases mitochondrial fission. Symptoms may be stagnant or improve slightly at this point.<br/>
↓<br/>
6. All cells become resistant to glucocorticoids (cortisol) after prolonged exposure. Body's glucose stores may be exhausted as well from enhanced immune activity, which consumes tons of glucose. The lack of stimulation from glucocorticoids and lack of glucose for energy causes metabolism to decrease in all tissues. Cells in the affected tissue reduce rate of fission, and metabolic rate in the affected tissue returns to baseline. Metabolic rate in all other healthy tissues is below baseline because they were normal beforehand. Primary symptoms go away, main disease goes into remission. But other symptoms like fatigue and lack of energy may begin to crop up. <br/>
↓<br/>
7. At this point, the disease is in remission. It may flare up again if there is another injury to the tissue (more radiation, toxins, stress, etc.). It may also flare up in response to increased energy load (if the person eats a ton). If either or both of these happen, the cycle restarts itself and we go back to stage 1.<br/>
<br/>
So you can see we need to play into remission. Gotta go low energy for a prolonged period of time to promote mitochondrial fusion and intracellular reorganization. Keep energy low to keep the immune system quiet. And keep energy low to resensitize the cells to cortisol (remember - cells are sensitive to hormones based off of need, not just exposure). That will break the cycle and send people into remission for a much longer period of time, and possibly even cure them (as long as they limit exposure to the things that caused the damage in the first place - like radiation, stress, toxins, virus/bacteria, etc, or find a way to protect themselves from those things if exposed).</r>
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="1290" time="1507985562" user_id="114"><s>
HerrFisch post_id=1290 time=1507985562 user_id=114 said:
</s>
@mattyb <br/>
The only way to get rid of too much fission is fasting right? <br/>
Or do you think there are other ways? <br/>
Could smoking have something to do with fission? There are some articles about smoking and CU. <br/>
And for me it helps both problems.
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Fasting makes the most sense and is the safest. I think some chemotherapies can do the trick also, but they have other detrimental side effects.<br/>
<br/>
Nicotine stimulates fission typically. It makes other conditions like Crohn's much worse. I think it works for UC because it reduces blood flow specifically to the colon. The lack of blood flow starves the area and may reduce mito-fission as a result, or it may just reduce immune system activity. The problem is that you have to keep smoking to get positive effects, and once you stop the flare-ups typically return with a vengeance.</r>
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Oh yeah, and I think exercise can help with inflammatory diseases of the gut as well, by drawing blood away from the central area and towards the limbs for an extended period of time. This decreases energy availability to gut, forcing gut metabolism to decrease and possibly stimulating mito-fusion for a short period of time. I think it can also help with sensitization to glucocorticoids for the parts of the body you're exercising, which can help fight against some of the low metabolism symptoms that would crop up in Stage 6.</t>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r>Thank you that post is great! <br/>
<br/>
But for my urgency problem, what do you think about it being connected to excess copper /biounavailable copper? <br/>
<br/>
And by speeding up metabolism it helps by using / excreting copper slowly.<br/>
Copper toxicity makes so much sense and all the symptoms would fit. (+hair test)<br/>
Copper is made biounavailable to slow down metabolism or the metabolism is slowed down therefore excess copper.<br/>
<br/>
Body uses every increase in metabolism to dump copper via bile. <br/>
<br/>
If I now increase my metabolism in a day over time, it can be dumped more easily. <br/>
Would fit 100% to my experiences. <br/>
But fast as in high dose caffeine or stress it dumpes too fast. <br/>
<br/>
(Maybe chronically smoking people actually do have a lowish metabolism. Therefore the first cigarette in the morning increases metabolism faster than the second one would.? First cigarette in the morning is known to be "urgent" for lots of people. People that stop smoking often develop digestive problems.) <br/>
<br/>
<URL url="http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=89&start=10#p1428"><LINK_TEXT text="http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php ... t=10#p1428">http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=89&start=10#p1428</LINK_TEXT></URL></r>
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Okay, thought about it a bit more. <br/>
<br/>
Raised copper makes sense in the context of UC. If there's lots of mito-fission, demand and uptake of copper raises significantly due to increased demand for cytochrome C oxidase (copper containing enzyme), as well as increased demand for CuZnSOD. If mitochondria are dysfunctional (like they would become later on when MnSOD and catalase gets low), then this causes an efflux of CytCOX from the cell, which is a copper containing enzyme. This liberates copper into the bloodstream. These are things you would all expect when UC is in starting to go into remission. Which would make some sense for why you get a trade off between UC and urgency.<br/>
<br/>
It is hard to say exactly what is going on though especially since you have been on keto for a while. Things like low cortisol, high pyruvate, high lactate can be caused by keto and may not have anything to do with the UC. On keto people typically have lower copper intake, but there is still some copper intake and intestinal absorption can always be upregulated when a mineral is in need.</t>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Ok if I get you right, you say its possible for that "copper dumping" and if I go from remission into flare up it will disappear?<br/>
Because copper gets used again. And the increased demand (from fission) would stay for some time even if I go back to remission with dampened metabolism and then there is too much copper and it gets too high in tissue. <br/>
<br/>
My copper in the blood is pretty low. (right now) Maybe because its biounavailable in tissue and the body does not want any more.<br/>
<br/>
Do you think its possible to prolong a UC flare by somehow increasing / enhancing the bodys capability to fight ROS? <br/>
Like more Antioxidants or Gluthatione? <br/>
Because if those get lower with dampened metabolism youll get faster into another flare. <br/>
<br/>
That would increase the span from low fission to high fission, in which UC then appears maybe later ?</t>
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="1445" time="1508088544" user_id="114"><s>
HerrFisch post_id=1445 time=1508088544 user_id=114 said:
</s>
Ok if I get you right, you say its possible for that "copper dumping" and if I go from remission into flare up it will disappear? Because copper gets used again. And the increased demand (from fission) would stay for some time even if I go back to remission with dampened metabolism and then there is too much copper and it gets too high in tissue. <e>
</e></QUOTE>

Yes. Pretty much. The lowered metabolism of remission also inhibits the copper from being integrated into metalloenzymes, because the synthesis of those enzymes requires energy. Copper doesn't really have a intracellular pools where it is stored for future use though, so any unused copper not being integrated into metalloenzymes needs to be dumped into bile/feces.<br/>

<QUOTE><s>
</s>My copper in the blood is pretty low. (right now) Maybe because its biounavailable in tissue and the body does not want any more.<e>
</e></QUOTE>

It is very hard to say. Your copper could just be low from being on a ketogenic diet, and have really nothing to do with your UC. May or not may not be unrelated. Hard to say. Could be low if your sex hormones are low (est, test, prog). Bunch of reasons for low copper, hard to say.<br/>

<QUOTE><s>
</s>Do you think its possible to prolong a UC flare by somehow increasing / enhancing the bodys capability to fight ROS? <br/>
Like more Antioxidants or Gluthatione? <br/>
Because if those get lower with dampened metabolism youll get faster into another flare. <br/>
<br/>
That would increase the span from low fission to high fission, in which UC then appears maybe later ?
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

I don't think the flare up symptoms really hit until antioxidants are low. It's when antioxidants are depleted or metabolism outpaces their synthesis that symptoms begin flaring up. Upregulated metabolism from radiation/toxins/etc. creates more superoxide, and it's the superoxide exposure that upregulates fission. So I think if you can control superoxide by upregulating antioxidants you can stop fission (but it won't promote fusion IMO). That's why I think drugs that increase act as accelerants of the antioxidant system are super helpful in inflammatory diseases. Look up the drug Ebselen, there is a company called Sound Pharmaceuticals that has been having success in treating auditory conditions from physical and chemical trauma (loud noises, chemotherapy, etc.). They are starting to extend it's use into neurodegenerative disorders as well. Ebselen is a superfast self-regenerating thioredoxin regenerator that also has H202 neutralizing effects alongside cysteine residue interactions. It's a super interesting drug thats been studied for decades and is finally making it's way into clinical trials. It's whole action is in increasing the regeneration of many of the primary post-superoxide antioxidants.<br/>
<br/>
One problem is that antioxidant levels take a while to adapt to elevated superoxide levels - it doesn't happen immediately. So exposure to a quick insult like radiation that quickly increases superoxide takes a few hours or even days until antioxidants catch up - so if the damage is too severe already and the immune system has already swept in and causing damage of it's own (because it responds quite quickly and strongly in young and healthy people) by the time the antioxidants are there to do their job the damage is too much, superoxide overruns the cell, and fission outpaces itself until eventually it hits a critical mass where the cell dies or new mitochondria can't form due to lack of nutrients/defective metabolism/excessive mtDNA damage.</r>
 

mattyb

Moderator
Messages
833
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="1590" time="1508171145" user_id="114"><s>
HerrFisch post_id=1590 time=1508171145 user_id=114 said:
</s>
@mattyb May I ask what you do for work / University?
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Masters in Pharmacy, bachelor's in kinesiology (minor in biomedical sciences). Supervisor was an endocrinologist/cell biologist (MD/PhD). My thesis was primarily on fasting and metabolism, running a small study on intermittent fasting in diabetics. Most of my graduate course training was in statistics. Had done lots of research in other areas as well, as I worked in the research ethics department and in a general research support unit for the health region. So I am kind of a jack of all trades in the biomedical research world. I have worked with almost every type of physician from surgeons to family docs along the way.<br/>
<br/>
Right now I work in a provincial sleep clinic/university, I run a large prospective study on sleep apnea using oximetry data and it's relationship to cognitive function/cardiovascular disease/urine and blood biomarkers.</r>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><QUOTE author="mattyb" post_id="1594" time="1508180996" user_id="95"><s>
mattyb post_id=1594 time=1508180996 user_id=95 said:
</s>
<QUOTE author="HerrFisch" post_id="1590" time="1508171145" user_id="114"><s>
HerrFisch post_id=1590 time=1508171145 user_id=114 said:
</s>
@mattyb May I ask what you do for work / University?
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Masters in Pharmacy, bachelor's in kinesiology (minor in biomedical sciences). Supervisor was an endocrinologist/cell biologist (MD/PhD). My thesis was primarily on fasting and metabolism, running a small study on intermittent fasting in diabetics. Most of my graduate course training was in statistics. Had done lots of research in other areas as well, as I worked in the research ethics department and in a general research support unit for the health region. So I am kind of a jack of all trades in the biomedical research world. I have worked with almost every type of physician from surgeons to family docs along the way.<br/>
<br/>
Right now I work in a provincial sleep clinic/university, I run a large prospective study on sleep apnea using oximetry data and it's relationship to cognitive function/cardiovascular disease/urine and blood biomarkers.
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Wow that sounds pretty awesome! <br/>
I actually thought of studying pharmacy too <E>:)</E></r>
 

Aleksandr

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,285
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>Yeah that sounds cool MattyB! Perfect for this place too. Glad to have you here</t>
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,064
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<t>So right now Im trying to avert a UC flare. I guess by improving my problems I got my metabolism too high for UC to stay in remission. <br/>
I kind of knew that. <br/>
<br/>
Maybe I manage to get it down on my own. <br/>
Could also have some good to it because its maybe helping me to get rid of that excess copper even faster. <br/>
<br/>
Right now I supplement with some non acidic vitamin C ~3g, some boswellia serrata, zinc and some Glutamine. <br/>
I think fasting while being in a flare up is not that good.</t>
 

Canari

Member
Messages
1,609
Re: Mitochondrial problems.

<r><E>:|</E> <E:mad:</E> I am 2 days with no supp and no nerve problem, so it may mean that I get rid of something, maybe copper as I took zinc. Thus I understand your dilemma...</r>