ZINC FINGER THEORY DISCUSSION for PFS - 2 cases

[Tar]

@Helen, I have been reading some older posts from you to refresh my memory and I saw this one above, did you change your view about TEI? Reading the above post it seems you didn't like TEI back then, I am in four lows (hair test in signature) and ordered the supplements, but reading above it seems I can fuck myself up even more.

I also have these saved on that similar vein:

When I started taking the program ARL kept telling me that I am really low on zinc. and that zinc zinc zinc zinc I need. both companies just bombarded me with zinc. And I had terrible anemia from it. my skin had grey color. I stayed on their balancing the ratios for almost a year. then I compared picture from before and after and if was ridiculous . Then I went and tested my urine mineral levels and rbc. my zinc levels were 5 times higher than norm in the urine. My insulin was just zero I had shortness of breath. Same I got from progesterone.

I was very confused and I quit the program right away. It was harming me obivously. I could not understand why was I losing all this zinc, and feeding zinc was making it worse and worse. It was some kind of regulation. And those companies were trying to balance my ratios. and just made it worse and worse.

Then I understood, that it was a balance between two enzymes, IDE enzyme which breaks down insulin, and insulin creating enzyme . These enzymes had zinc in it. So everytime, I would feed zinc, my insulin would crash. I was wondering what the hell was going on . Zinc for some reason was raising IDE enzyme , but did not increase production of the actual insulin. ARL and TE was trying to increase my insulin levels with zinc since that is the interaction they got.

Only when I fed copper with histidine, insulin went up. , because histidine wont go up without copper, and histidine is needed for insulin. SO by feeding copper histidine , I increased my insulin and decreased my IDE enzyme. Boom it was fixed just like that. And zinc levels and b6 levels went up on their own.

And I thought I had pyroluria LOL

It is almost impossible to run low on major electrolytes like magnesium calcium potassium sodium. This only happens if you have some amino imbalance. Since your liver is full of minerals usually. That is why you eat beef liver. Only amino acid imbalance can prevent your body from restoring the balance.

and

And that is exactly why by giving you minerals the ratios on hairtests on their programs just go back and forth and nothing is really getting balanced.

I have been on the program myself. plus I have tons of people who are on the program for more than 6 years. trust me, they are not fixed. Got much older looking with congested livers and hairloss and grey hair.


Look at Larry Wilson. who is on the program for 30 years. Just look at his picture. this is what you will get by balancing or fighting wrongly what the body is doing.


Look at how you look after 30 years of the mineral balancing approach. It is ridiculous really. And hair is gone.

 

[Helen]

As I said, I didnt like programs for a long time. May be I did not understand them. But from what TEI explained to me I changed my view.

Is it safe long term? I dont know. Is it safer than what people are doing - 100%. From what TEI explained to me, their approach is correct.

I saw my close friend just recently on the TEI program, she was on it for 5 years. Looks really good.

I think Wilsons screws up many people on those programs by his recs

 

[HerrFisch]

As I said, I didnt like programs for a long time. May be I did not understand them. But from what TEI explained to me I changed my view.

Is it safe long term? I dont know. Is it safer than what people are doing - 100%. From what TEI explained to me, their approach is correct.

I saw my close friend just recently on the TEI program, she was on it for 5 years. Looks really good.

I think Wilsons screws up many people on those programs by his recs

I’m curious, what did TEI answer you?

 

[Helen]

I’m curious, what did TEI answer you?

They explained how they look at the hairtest. and answered some of my questions, and explained why people feel bad, since they dont subsitute but force stuff,

Their thinking is that most people are toxic in iron in the brain. So they told me that they could easily feed iron to people and make them feel better. in the moment.

But they are trying to recover the brain. And this is why there is a discrepancy of how people feel while on the program.


This is what parinksons people also do , they take huge B1 or B2 and chelate the hell out of brain iron

 

[Slayo]

is it possible that heavy metals induce impaired GR (and basically all steroids and thyroid) signals by substituiting zinc in the zinc finger structure ?

Zinc finger is needed for all the steroids and thyroid hormones nuclear receptors as well as retinoids and vit d

@Helen

 

[Nina]

@m_arch


Sorry, but it is not the way it works.


You go on carbs only diet for 2 months. You will have high sodium, low magnesium, low potassium, high calcium. This is the body telling you it is trying to ventilate faster. In this case it is totally useless to look at the ratios. And it is totally useless in this case to try to fix sodium magnesium ratio and especially lower adrenaline output. This is an example

If you go to Gbolduev Q and A you will see that the only thing I was talking about was ADRENALINE vs serotonin ratio. That is my oxidation types. And that is exactly the ratios of sodium magnesium, and potassium calcium balance.

Eck and Watts parted their ways, since they could not figure out potassium. this happened because they could not figure out cortisol sensitivity issue. And IMO both companys programs are wrong now because of this issue and their take on hairtests is wrong also.





And that is exactly why by giving you minerals the ratios on hairtests on their programs just go back and forth and nothing is really getting balanced.

I have been on the program myself. plus I have tons of people who are on the program for more than 6 years. trust me, they are not fixed. Got much older looking with congested livers and hairloss and grey hair.


Look at Larry Wilson. who is on the program for 30 years. Just look at his picture. this is what you will get by balancing or fighting wrongly what the body is doing.


Look at how you look after 30 years of the mineral balancing approach. It is ridiculous really. And hair is gone.

https://hackstasis.com/forums/-/list

@m_arch I like that you are trying to get it figured out from the hairtests etc. but trust me I know hairtests in and out, and all ARL and TE programs and approaches and tested all this for years. Be careful with this. The main problem is potassium regulation mistake in those programs. after that mistake everything just falls apart. Thus after years of seeing people on these programs and I am a practitioner to both ARL and TE, I don't rec people to be on those programs. I only would understand being on any program like that, if it really could balance your ratios. I HAVE NEVER SEEN BALANCED HAIRTEST On those programs. If you showed me a hairtest that would have perfect ratios and values on it, I would admit that it is good approach

As I mentioned before that I would rec ARL and TE for a very short time in critical cases, just for a chance to adjust the PH.

I am an adapt in overmineralization theory of aging. This is why I rec fasting. amino acids. etc. Not taking multivitamins. and hairtests are just for the purpose to see your oxidation rate so you can eat accordingly.

Oxidation rate is adrenaline to serotonin ratio. Which is sodium magnesium AND calcium potassium ratio.. Traceelements have it wrong with this phosphorus to calcium oxidation type. Which I dont even look at . it shows compensation of the acid base primary imbalance. I agree here more with ARL type oxidation measurement., they dont look at calcium phosphorus ratio. they look at sodium to magnesium, plus calcium to potassium, and that makes your oxidation rate which is correct. I have no idea why people look at Traceelements oxidations types. They are simply wrong.

March if you want to get closer to understanding this, test hairtests and ABGS and VBGs at the same time. After that you will understand that fixing ratios on hairtests is useless. And that minerals are not the structure of the enzymes controling all of this. the mutations are mostly in amino acids parts of the enzymes, and not mineral deficiencies.

this is why TE and ARL programs simply don't work and make you older, since they mostly concentrate on minerals and some vitamins.( a few) They did not have proper interactions since the programs were made 40 years ago.

So one more time be careful with putting minerals into your body using their recs. It does move the one ratio in the needed direction, but it screws up other things, since that minerals that they are using to move the ratio is not needed and the mutation is in the amino acid part of the enzyme.

This is why they make up all those excuses for a not balanced hairtest. I think if the program is correct, it should balance you into perfect oxidation rate within a month. may be even 2 weeks. and then when you test hair. You should have ideal perfect 4 electrolytes at least. NEVER EVER SEEN on their programs.

People take their program for 2 years, and stay in 4 lows. Or take their program for 2 years and stay in very slow oxidation. ARL tells you that you are rebuilding , but you are getting worse and worse. your liver is just full of not needed minerals , since there are no needed aminos to even bind them

But when you take the program you feel a little better, that is since you force the enzyme using the minerals and once this mineral is constantly very high in your blood, this enzyme goes a little faster, but in 2 years it will slowly just die from congested liver

This is why animals when sick dont eat. they fast


When I started taking the program ARL kept telling me that I am really low on zinc. and that zinc zinc zinc zinc I need. both companies just bombarded me with zinc. And I had terrible anemia from it. my skin had grey color. I stayed on their balancing the ratios for almost a year. then I compared picture from before and after and if was ridiculous . Then I went and tested my urine mineral levels and rbc. my zinc levels were 5 times higher than norm in the urine. My insulin was just zero I had shortness of breath. Same I got from progesterone.

I was very confused and I quit the program right away. It was harming me obivously. I could not understand why was I losing all this zinc, and feeding zinc was making it worse and worse. It was some kind of regulation. And those companies were trying to balance my ratios. and just made it worse and worse.

Then I understood, that it was a balance between two enzymes, IDE enzyme which breaks down insulin, and insulin creating enzyme . These enzymes had zinc in it. So everytime, I would feed zinc, my insulin would crash. I was wondering what the hell was going on . Zinc for some reason was raising IDE enzyme , but did not increase production of the actual insulin. ARL and TE was trying to increase my insulin levels with zinc since that is the interaction they got.

Only when I fed copper with histidine, insulin went up. , because histidine wont go up without copper, and histidine is needed for insulin. SO by feeding copper histidine , I increased my insulin and decreased my IDE enzyme. Boom it was fixed just like that. And zinc levels and b6 levels went up on their own.

And I thought I had pyroluria LOL

It is almost impossible to run low on major electrolytes like magnesium calcium potassium sodium. This only happens if you have some amino imbalance. Since your liver is full of minerals usually. That is why you eat beef liver. Only amino acid imbalance can prevent your body from restoring the balance.

Does this theory still stand? The oxidation types etc. That you talked about on Ray Peat forum?

 

[Admiral]

Wtf.. never knew Helen was so against TEI/ARL just a while ago. What happened that changes his mind so drastically?

 

[Helen]

Wtf.. never knew Helen was so against TEI/ARL just a while ago. What happened that changes his mind so drastically?

your answer is on 2 last pages.

 

[Nina]

your answer is on 2 last pages.

Is this theory about oxidation type still what you believe in? With the adrenaline/serotonin balance etc.

 

[Aleksandr]

Lol holy crap that post

 

[Nina]

Lol holy crap that post

Gbolduev phase was wild.

 

[Snow1]

So yes to ARL or TEI or not????

 

[RebelWithACause]

So yes to ARL or TEI or not????

It seems best way for the average person to get back to health. Staying on it for 10+ years? Probably not a good idea.

Look at Lewis from Deep Healing Space. Guy had copper toxicity, Post-Accutane, liver issues, etc. (all correlated) and fixed it. So it works. Even Dr. Wilsons' program.

Maybe if you are healthy enough to get off the program you get off and live a balanced life. Fast sometimes to get rid of the excess minerals, etcetera. But these programs are for very sick people. To get you out of that hole. From what I read on DHS and other people's stories it works.

 

[Aflac94]

Does this theory still stand? The oxidation types etc. That you talked about on Ray Peat forum?

So wait , how will we know if TEI is working or doing the wrong thing?

You’ve said in the past that it’s normal to feel like shit on the program and just to wait it out.

But above you explained that you felt like shit on the program Bc it was wrong.

Is there a way to tell the difference and Do you still rec TEI? @Helen

 

[Helen]

So wait , how will we know if TEI is working or doing the wrong thing?

You’ve said in the past that it’s normal to feel like shit on the program and just to wait it out.

But above you explained that you felt like shit on the program Bc it was wrong.

Is there a way to tell the difference and Do you still rec TEI? @Helen

can you please read 2 last pages of this thread.

This topic is going over and over and over the same thing

 

[Aflac94]

I misunderstood their program, I contacted TEI and the explained it to me. It is not a balancing company. I understand now what they do for potassium regulation, they are doing correct things.

Okay Thanks. So they are chelation company? I still have such a shit understanding of everything overall. I wish there was a book I could read.

I still wonder about all of us premature babies getting pharmacological dose of steroids in utero and if that predisposed as , lots of people on here seems were born early

 

[bruschi11]

Cysteine levels are elevated in MS. So the deficiency in CDO seems to be the culpit. It has to do either with low histidine OR low iron delivery.

Also it could be from carnosinase deficiency, and you know what is needed for that? MANGANESE. Without manganese I think histidine levels will be low.

May be this is the culpit for MS and iron toxicity is the cause. In this case Chlorides and salt, will be really bad for people with MS. Since chloride is anti Manganese. I remember I had people allergic to sea water. It caused eczema which is histidine deficiency. After adding Manganese it was gone.


It would be interesting to see beta alanine and histidine urine levels in MS.


I guess another possibility would be manganese toxicity and iron deficiency. So I think it is histidine iron manganese balance which should be looked in for MS

Manganese, copper, and zinc in cerebrospinal fluid from patients with multiple sclerosis - Biological Trace Element Research

I think this is going on with me since I donated fucking blood. NAC high in oats. Any time I increase cysteine I die (b6, b2).

I know this is about CDO and iron as fe2. Sulfur needs to go up in hair and it’s the deadest it’s been by far ever.

Hemoglobin is high. Hemoglobin needs to be moved to fe2 via histdine and Heme oxygenase. Cannot push HO too hard as it creates carbon monoxide.

Electrolytes and water need to be retained in body for carbon monoxide. The better this is controlled, the more focus can be put into moving iron off hemoglobin to fe2 which gets CDO working.

One thing that can’t happen is pushing fe2 to fe3 too hard. As fe2 is CDO. Not fe3.

Iron in hair can be normal. Sulfur in hair low. Why? Cuz fe2 is for CDO. Not fe3. I have crashed more than once with normal iron in hair but sulfur drops. If things go wrong.. iron will then drop afterward and both iron sulfur dead… Krebs cycle goes dead as it’s dependent on the two of them.

Histidine is the most important piece. Manganese is important but can’t supply all the histidine cuz of it does and we push manganese too hard we kill arginine. B3/b12 can kill electorlytes but are beyond needed for NAD —-> histidine.

I gotta give histdine too. I’ll try some zinc carnosine.

Attached is the hair test. I believe it’s worse than it shows cuz I kept pushing methylation for a month before this test. Worst thing I could’ve done.

 

[bruschi11]

I was curing this last fall. I mean I did cure it and just had to re-assemble the rest of body chemistry. Instead I was handed Dhea and fucked Everything up. I donate blood and boom it feels like everything moved into brain.

I’ve been low histidine all of 2023 low manganese. I had xc antiporter/NRF2 issues I finally fixed with b5.

This is a giant mess. I needed this website up for help.

I literally have MS from mistakes. It just sucks most things that hurt me were staying outside the norm specifically Dhea donating blood ozone (ozone without histdine is deadly… kills fe2 while iron is stuck on hemoglobin).

 

[bruschi11]

I don’t know if anyones reading due to deadness of forum but for gbold I’ll write here a bit. Not getting help on RP forum. Without gbold there really is no help.

Alright I’ve been living in salt water and have been thinking it’s a problem. Just the last 2-3 weeks I’ve been in the salt water but that’s when I began manganese. Lol I take manganese, massive improvement overnight. The NEXT DAY I go to beach and have been going to the beach or in salt water almost every day ever since.

Several mistakes were made pushing b2 boron biotin copper dumps all anti fe2. Too much manganese depleted arginine making me diabetic for a couple days. Too much zinc and chromium increased citrulline too much leading to crazy carbon monoxide.

I’m really in a fucked up place. The science all adds up but end of day yes absolutely this is MS due to poor CDO issue.

I notice in April, I wasn’t doing well but sulfur was increasing in hair next to manganese in hair next to histidine in blood. I definitely felt more fixable then. And no I wasn’t touching salt water. Problem then was b5/ system xc was dead. We can’t have ZERO cysteine. We need a little. I just can’t push it.

I cured this last fall. I had it. I honestly think I might be Fucked this time.

I’m gonna order histidine to take orally. It makes sense. Tmg/ glycine to control cysteine too.

 

[bruschi11]

Manganese deficiency is in Lyme… spoke to bunch of older people at Lyme clinic in 2017 and 2019 when I went there. All had been diagnosed with MS for years… ended up having Lyme and the Lyme treatment improved them drastically.

I always had higher hemoglobin… until 2017-2019 when I got better. Even during Lyme relapse from all my health stuff… in early 2019 I had bloods and hemoglobin was perfect.

Mid 2020 I got rid of babesia last step of Lyme for good. Iron in hair spiked. Hemoglobin was high end in blood. I had plenty of manganese.

I needed both NAD and nrf2- histidine and Heme oxygenaz. I believe lithium (lithium + b12 which was good= NADH to NAD+) got me to NaD. Chromium got me to NRF2.

I got a lot better. I fasted a couple times 3 and 10 days. Eventually b5 for NRF2 was huge.

This time hemoglobin higher than ever but it was bad last august. Last august I had one of best 2 month improvements I’ve ever had. Mainly through NAD. Manganese was normal to high end in hair. But it dropped by the new year. Manganese/histidine. has mostly been low end since.

Histdine in February was soooo low. Like 1/2 the range.

I think zinc chromium manganese histidine TMG b3 and/or b12 maybe aspartate instead of b6. Cuz aspartate is needed for urea cycle and b6 just increases cysteine.

What a disaster. But must say manganese immediatley helped but been doing bad bad things ever since . It’s been 2.5 weeks since I first took manganese. But countless mistakes since including living in salt water since.