ZINC FINGER THEORY DISCUSSION for PFS - 2 cases

[Helen]

Yes. But for example, my friend could take 7g with no reaction and I took 2g with rash all over my back, face, hands. Similar with niacin. And he has several allergys. I got none.

I have high histamine levels. Maybe its in connection with that. Or because of high or low levels of histidine? Would be interesting to know

Yeah, it would be interesting to test for histidine levels. HIgh or low we dont know in your case.

 

[TubZy]

It is all about balance. In my case. cysteine and methionine caused terrible hairloss. and histamine reactions. B6 will only work when there is enough histidine. Since histidine is broken down by b6 and if you force b6 with active forms. you will get histamine .

As you saw from amino acid profiles with androgenic hairloss. Cysteine is missing in only 50% cases.

CDO controls biotin transport from the intestine. So all this topical application stuff is irrelavant. it is not about cysteine in hair, it is about cysteine and histidine controling biotin uptake by activating CDO.

When I outlined zinc finger , I accounted for all of this. It has everything needed in there. Folate, histidine alanine. etc. Don't know why you are trying to change the protocol which is already outlined by taking some ghetto protocols which will screw you up in other things.

To get to cysteine you need serine in the body plus magnesium plus b6, you cant just keep taking cysteine it is not good. You need to restore digestion so your body restores everything. For that you need to take the protocol not some parts of it. . Since if you have high cysteine levels it will cause cancer. and 50/50 people have high cysteine. And another 50 have low serine , thus low cysteine.

NO need to look, just try around the original zinc finger. Every little part of it is needed. You can take 1/2 of the protocol, or 1/8 of the protocol. It can all fall apart if you don't take it all.

the only person who is taking it all is SEVENS , they guy who took Deca. He is taking zinc copper also, And he does not have a libido crash from them. Since he is taking all the things.

I know it is hard to understand and it is easier to take some shortened route and stuff.

But you have to understrand, it is not about fixing hairloss, it is about balancing yourself.

You take cysteine, you fix hairloss, and then you get a heart attack from high homocysteine levels. How good is it

I urge people to get tested first , really, and see exactly where there problem is . BUT even if you find your problem, and you are fixing it , in a while you will go onto another side of this problem, if you are not going to feed balanced route.


IN any case @TubZy I am for experimenting with different parts of zinc finger. Just keep this POST in mind. Since eventually no matter what route you take, you will have to come back and take everything, since you will be getting imbalanced on some other part. Like fix hairloss, lose libido, fix hairloss get diabetes.

This is why we have to be careful.

I agree, however which part of the ghetto protocol that I mentioned isn't in agreement with you? (everything mentioned in the protocol I listed is what sevens is doing)
Also can you please clarify if we need zinc or not? Even the people that do horrible on it, do we need to supplement with it or no, even if it castrates us? That is still not clear

 

[TubZy]

ALSO @TubZy Don't forget that we don't know how those tests are done for amino acids, and we don't know what they mean.

May be it means that we need to take in the amino acids which are not MISSING on that profile, to put those which are missing in balance.

that is also a possiblity that we should not forget.

As I mentioned before zinc finger could be upregulated also.

And again I know you prefer balance, but why not just suggest a full amino acid complex supplement that is in free form that you take with HCL. Let the body take which aminos it needs. Wouldn't that be the safest and best bet for balance then especially for the people that have not been tested?

 

[barbaar]

Just ordered all the aminos listed in the first post. I'm going to try the full protocol.

 

[mattyb]

Yeah \I read this one also. I think it is one of the studies I read before I put accent on those 3( I put them highlighted in BOLD in the protocol , since they are base aminos.

it is no wonder, those are 3 amino acids, which need HCL. You force them in, body has to reorganize.

It seem cool right? Easy way out for alkalosis.

Very cool.

Another thought is that this could be dependent on deprotonation of the 3 basic amino acids. Without deprotonation of these AAs some of the positive anti-inflammatory effects may not occur. Endotoxin‐neutralizing effects of histidine‐rich peptides

This would create a feed-forward mechanism, whereby increasing protons through deprotonation would raise acidity, and this acidity would further increase deprotonation, which would further facilitate the deprotonation of the 3 positive/basic AAs. Deprotonation of these AAs would also increase demand for chloride in order to balance charges, and when paired with potassium and histidine/histamine would increase synthesis of gastric acid. This process would reach then inhibit itself, when the pH would get too low (around 4) histidine would start retaining it's proton again.

Supplementing amino acids with negative charges at physiological pH would oppose this process, since they would increase overall negative charge and therefore decrease retention of Cl-. So taking a total AA supplement and expecting the body to work itself out won't really help with Cl- retention and gastric acid synthesis. The basic AAs are the only AAs that can lose a proton at physiological pH and still retain a positive overall charge and increase demand for cations.

I now understand how the positive AAs like histidine can help with chelation. They will literally force the body to increase the excretion of the most positively charged ions, which are mostly metals that act as strong drivers of oxidation reactions. Arganine and Lysine, to an extent, seem able to chelate metals like iron: http://www.jrnlappliedresearch.com/articles/Vol4Iss2/Waugh-Jar-spring.pdf

I have heard of people, mostly vegans, using watermelon juic (which is super high in arganine) as a way to promote hair growth. I wonder if they are simply chelating heavy metals like iron, which then reduces lipid peroxide formation and restores digestion. On top of that, if they are health conscious vegans I imagine their intake of sulfur and cysteine-rich vegetables is pretty high.

 

[wuf]

Yeah, it would be interesting to test for histidine levels. HIgh or low we dont know in your case.

I am going to have blood tests for:

Histidine - histamine - cystein - folic acid - copper - ceruloplasmin - iron panel - insulin.

I don't want to jump on casual protocols, so from results of these tests the way should be more clear.

Are these tests you mentioned above enough?
Thanks

 

[tanedout]

@wuf Guess you've already had progesterone, estrogen and cortisol etc?

You're lucky being able to get such a selection of bloods - I've just been to my doctor hoping to get an amino acid panel done, along with venous gases (suspect my c02 is low as I tend to get chest pain that increases when idle, but is relieved by either doing some exercise or eating (apparently exercise and eating carbs can increase c02), and would tie in with alkalosis, but they can't test for either without a referral to a specialist, and a good reason.

 

[Helen]

@mattyb

I remember when I was sick, Watermelon was a disaster for me. It caused so much hairloss it was not even funny. Arginine chelates manganese. since manganese is the part of arginase. Histidine causes more active Carbonic anhydrase, and lowers Co2, this causes metabolic alkalosis to go away and allows metabolism to rise. Sodium hydrocarbonate that you read about caused met alkalosis and resp acidosis. this is why histidine was used. Since the goal was getting rid of overcompensation I would assume.

It is the hardest part to get rid of alkalosis when Co2 is retained. it does not allow alkalosis to go away. I see this overcompensated condition in so many people these days. I think it happens since originally having Co2 retention problems, people try to resolve low thyroid effect by forcing metabolism with either stress, or supplements like zinc , alkaline waters, etc. this causes alkalosis on top of original Co2 retention problems.


They do feel much better when they overcompensate the Co2 retention problems energy wise but slowly losing more and more zinc

 

[wuf]

@wuf Guess you've already had progesterone, estrogen and cortisol etc?

You're lucky being able to get such a selection of bloods - I've just been to my doctor hoping to get an amino acid panel done, along with venous gases (suspect my c02 is low as I tend to get chest pain that increases when idle, but is relieved by either doing some exercise or eating (apparently exercise and eating carbs can increase c02), and would tie in with alkalosis, but they can't test for either without a referral to a specialist, and a good reason.

Yes I already tested hormonal panel.
I can test everything if it is available, my doctor knows me and I just need to text him an email with the tests I need and he prescribes them.

 

[mattyb]

@gbolduev

That's interesting. I eat a lot of watermelon during summer and never had any issues with increased shedding at all during those times. If anything, watermelon has always made me feel pretty good. My hair growth seems best in summer, particularly near the end.

But my intake of manganese through diet is quite high (often ~200% RDA) and I've almost always taken small amounts of supplementary zinc. In summer I am always more active as well, so I am much less likely to have issues with resp acidosis/met alkalosis. I think eating seasonally helps a lot with keeping me healthy. Summer is more fruit and vegetables, while winter is more fats, starches, and meats.

 

[Helen]

@gbolduev

That's interesting. I eat a lot of watermelon during summer and never had any issues with increased shedding at all during those times. If anything, watermelon has always made me feel pretty good. My hair growth seems best in summer, particularly near the end.

But my intake of manganese through diet is quite high (often ~200% RDA) and I've almost always taken small amounts of supplementary zinc. In summer I am always more active as well, so I am much less likely to have issues with resp acidosis/met alkalosis. I think eating seasonally helps a lot with keeping me healthy. Summer is more fruit and vegetables, while winter is more fats, starches, and meats.

Manganese does lower chlorides by the way. If you have low chlorides it could be your problem. Manganese does that by increasing acetylcholine , worsening your CO2 retention.

Arginine increases acetylcholine release and increases its breakdown at the same time. Manganese decreases break down of acetylcholine

l -arginine's effect on the hypoxia-induced release of acetylcholine from the in vitro cat carotid body, Respiratory Physiology & Neurobiology | DeepDyve

 

[mattyb]

Manganese does lower chlorides by the way. If you have low chlorides it could be your problem. Manganese does that by increasing acetylcholine , worsening your CO2 retention.

Arginine increases acetylcholine release and increases its breakdown at the same time. Manganese decreases break down of acetylcholine

Chloride is back in balance now, came back in range when I restored digestion which is still humming along nicely.

I just can't emphasize enough how awful desk jobs are. Outside of some depression in my teen years and early 20s (also when I was often very sedentary), I had zero significant health issues my entire life until I started a desk job two years ago. I have to constantly fight against what sitting all day does. I am really looking forward to a career change, hopefully it will happen next year. I can't imagine working at a desk for 30 years, it's a death sentence unless you spend all your time actively trying to counteract the negative effects.

 

[Helen]

Chloride is back in balance now, came back in range when I restored digestion which is still humming along nicely.

I just can't emphasize enough how awful desk jobs are. Outside of some depression in my teen years and early 20s, I had zero significant health issues my entire life until I started a desk job two years ago. I have to constantly fight against what sitting all day does. I am really looking forward to a career change, hopefully it will happen next year. I can't imagine working at a desk for 30 years, it's a death sentence unless you spend all your time actively trying to counteract the negative effects.

So true, some people are trying to get balanced while sitting on their behind all day long. Hypodynamia is killing them, and they have to take hormones, drugs, etc . Humans need to hunt and run etc, we can't sit on a chair like a praying mantis on a green leaf.

 

[Scenes]

I can say something to my experience with this whole thing.
I dont have PFS but i think im stuck in a same way as those people, I’ve used Deca ( Nandrolone) for a long Time and now im off steroids for about 4 Month. I have done the Clomid Protocol from gbolduev with no results. I ordered some aminos after reading this whole discussion here and started to take Essenital Amino Acids , Aspartic Acid and Serine from Myprotein.com. For the first time after Those couple month i started to feel libido again. I’m Taking those things for 5 days now and really got the feeling my body moves forward.I have some spontaneous and strong erections and my Testicles are a little bit bigger finally. I take all the aminos with betain HCL.
I also use Selenium, B12 sublingual 2500 IU, 1 gr Folate, Niacin 250 Mcg, 3 mg Copper, and 25 mg Zink + Vit e 400 IU, Citrulin and Arginin 4 gr each.

The Essential Aminos ( 15 gr per Day) contain :
Leucine 5gr
Valine 2.2gr
Lysine 2.2gr
Phenylalanine 1.8gr
Threoine 1.5gr
Isoleucine 890mg
Hisditine 720mg
Methionine 500mg
Tryptophan 200mg

@gbolduev
Do you think its neccary to add L Tyrosine and Beta Alanine?

@gbolduev this is the guy you said is taking the full protocol you are talking about? Where is his cysteine?

Full protocol from first page is:

1) histidine + serine + aspartic acid
2) essential aminos + electrolyte supplement
3) pine pollen powder (mineral supplement) + b vitamins in small doses

 

[Admiral]

This protocol (or concept) is targetting to lower cortisol, yet mine is baseline already. Should I still give it a go? Or is progesterone perhaps a better option, even though I am sceptical about that as well since my estrogen is baseline as well.

Pff.. just can’t seem to find the protocol that suits my bloodwork.

 

[tanedout]

For an amino supplement that contains all the amino acids in large quantities, I’m wondering if this product could be useful. It is all the natural amino acids extracted from beef, in a concentrated form. Just look at the supplement facts. For example, one serving contains:
3582 mg serine
5384 mg lysine
7189 mg arginine
18,950 mg glycine
1334 mg histidine
1236 mg methionine
500mg cysteine
Etc....

MuscleMeds, Carnivor Beef Aminos, 100% Pure Beef Protein, 300 Tablets

As has been mentioned already in this thread, maybe taking this in a proper stomach acid environment would allow easy absorption of all these aminos. And it is balanced because it is basically just concentrated beef protein.

Those amounts look huge per serving! There's an amino acid complex here which is supposed to be in a balance for being beneficial for protein synthesis. Includes all the essential ones, and all the other ones Gbol mentions in the protocol, but they're not in HCI form https://www.althealth.co.uk/products/lifeplan-amino-acid-700-full-complex-yeast-free-complex-50-tabs

 

[TubZy]

Those amounts look huge per serving! There's an amino acid complex here which is supposed to be in a balance for being beneficial for protein synthesis. Includes all the essential ones, and all the other ones Gbol mentions in the protocol, but they're not in HCI form https://www.althealth.co.uk/products/lifeplan-amino-acid-700-full-complex-yeast-free-complex-50-tabs

I found a few other good ones too. But my goal would be to take the aminos with additional histidine/cysteine too.

Healthy 'N Fit Anabolic Amino 10,000 at Bodybuilding.com: Best Prices for Anabolic Amino 10,000

 

[HerrFisch]

For an amino supplement that contains all the amino acids in large quantities, I’m wondering if this product could be useful. It is all the natural amino acids extracted from beef, in a concentrated form. Just look at the supplement facts. For example, one serving contains:
3582 mg serine
5384 mg lysine
7189 mg arginine
18,950 mg glycine
1334 mg histidine
1236 mg methionine
500mg cysteine
Etc....

MuscleMeds, Carnivor Beef Aminos, 100% Pure Beef Protein, 300 Tablets

As has been mentioned already in this thread, maybe taking this in a proper stomach acid environment would allow easy absorption of all these aminos. And it is balanced because it is basically just concentrated beef protein.

Dude, this is not a serving size. Thats for 100g. 3 Capsules is the serving size. Imagine alone glycine (18grams) in 3 capsules ?

Amino acids in capsules will always contain pretty little amounts of anything. And capsules will always be overpriced.
IMO capsules are always stupid expensive and totaly not worth it.

 

[TubZy]

Dude, this is not a serving size. Thats for 100g. 3 Capsules is the serving size. Imagine alone glycine (18grams) in 3 capsules ?

Amino acids in capsules will always contain pretty little amounts of anything. And capsules will always be overpriced.
IMO capsules are always stupid expensive and totaly not worth it.

Any good sources for powders? There is a boat load of BCAA ones but hard to find full complex free form amino acid in powder. I'm probably being lazy though lol

 

[Nighteyes]

Any good sources for powders? There is a boat load of BCAA ones but hard to find full complex free form amino acid in powder. I'm probably being lazy though lol

I am considering this one from Pure Encapsulations. It even has some of the aminos in HCL form The price is a little bit steep though.

Amino Replete 540g - Pure Encapsulations