Brainstorming & Ideas (PFS - Gbol)

[Helen]

they are tons of other ways to do the same thing. YOU just need to block one hormone, retain what is needed by the other, then unblock the first one, and retain what is needed by it. FIXED.

I am still working on the mineral combination to do the same thing

 

[Ghost]

[mention]Shadow[/mention], it can for the numbness for sure. Well, I guess you have to tie together the fact that decreasing SERT would desensitize 5-HT1A. But then you can see the dopamine connection and it all falls in line. I'd also add that Serotonin is deeply rooted in all things that we are. Serotonin is so preserved that it's even used in plants. It's one of the first signaling molecules in evolution. Because it's so ancient, it honestly regulates a ton of things, and that makes tacking it down hard. That's why you get studies that can show two completely different things if they change a tiny bit of their methodology.

If someone ever tells you: "A causes B, and B causes C, and C causes D"... Become instantly Skeptical. I know that I've done that a bit in outlining my theory above, so I would hope that people would be skeptical of what I say. That doesn't mean that it's not true, but I'm fairly confident that I could tie just about anything in the human body to serotonin or minerals in a few steps, but clearly not everything is the cure for PFS/PSSD.

[mention]gbolduev[/mention] , I want to talk more about Aldo.

Yes, Aldo will decrease K+, but that's because it functions as a negative feedback for K+. K+ increases Aldo, and Aldo is supposed to keep that increase in check. If the goal is tanking Aldo, then taking K+ is not wise.

Aldosterone: A forgotten mediator of the relationship between psychological stress and heart disease
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099453/

“Potassium directly increases aldosterone secretion by the adrenal cortex and aldosterone then lowers serum potassium by stimulating its excretion by the kidney. High dietary potassium intake increases plasma aldosterone and enhances the aldosterone response to a subsequent potassium or angiotensin II infusion."

I learned this first hand this week when I started having unrelenting anxiety a few days after upping my K+ intake with Cream of Tartar. 2 days after stopping the K+, anxiety relented. That pushed me to do a lot of research into Aldo.

"Aldosterone is an adrenal corticosteroid that activates the type I glucocorticoid receptor (otherwise known as mineralocorticoid receptor [MR]). Levels of aldosterone are increased by three primary secretagogues: (1) ACTH; (2) angiotensin II; (3) potassium. Thus, activation of both HPA axis and the rennin–angiotensin system leads to increases in aldosterone.”

Another thing to think about as maybe just a casual mention is that Dopamine inhibits Aldo, so maybe if we have dopamine being inhibited it could continue this cycle. Just a conjecture, but I'll throw it in here. It's from the same study.

"Dopamine inhibits aldosterone secretion in humans by a mechanism that is independent of the effects of prolactin, ACTH, electrolytes and the renin-angiotensin system"

You are correct in saying that Licorice will eventually lower Aldo. For people trying to follow along... Well I'll just paste from the literature directly because they describe it well...

glycyrrhizin as a potential treatment for chronic hepatitis C (1998)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2036.1998.00309.x/full

"11 β-Hydroxy-steroid-dehydrogenase is an enzyme complex which exists of two isoforms. The renal isoform 11 β-dehydrogenase converts cortisol to cortisone and the liver isoform 11 β-oxo-reductase catalyses the reverse reaction.16 Glycyrrhetinic acid does not inhibit the 11 β-oxo-reductase, but does inhibit the renal 11-β dehydrogenase.17 This leads to increased cortisol levels in the kidney. Because cortisol and aldosterone bind with the same affinity to the mineralocorticoid receptor, an increase in renal cortisol will result in a hypermineralocorticoid effect.15 Stimulation of the mineralocorticoid receptor leads to suppression of renin production, and subsequently to diminished formation of angiotensin I and aldosterone"

You're basically tricking your body into decreasing Aldo production. This effect is seen after a week of treatment, and has been seen to last 2-4 months after stopping Licorice (same source as above). They never check under a week though, so it's hard to say how long you need to take licorice for it to work. I'm assuming the 2 on 5 off schedule mentioned here is fine to start with, but it may have to be tweaked.

Anyways, the message that I wanted to get across is that you can't just raise K+ without increasing Aldo as well. So that won't work. You'd have to co-administer spiro or something. But just adding Potassium would increase Aldo and therefore not be helpful if you're using Aldo as a target for PSSD.

 

[Helen]

@Shadow, it can for the numbness for sure. Well, I guess you have to tie together the fact that decreasing SERT would desensitize 5-HT1A. But then you can see the dopamine connection and it all falls in line. I'd also add that Serotonin is deeply rooted in all things that we are. Serotonin is so preserved that it's even used in plants. It's one of the first signaling molecules in evolution. Because it's so ancient, it honestly regulates a ton of things, and that makes tacking it down hard. That's why you get studies that can show two completely different things if they change a tiny bit of their methodology.

If someone ever tells you: "A causes B, and B causes C, and C causes D"... Become instantly Skeptical. I know that I've done that a bit in outlining my theory above, so I would hope that people would be skeptical of what I say. That doesn't mean that it's not true, but I'm fairly confident that I could tie just about anything in the human body to serotonin or minerals in a few steps, but clearly not everything is the cure for PFS/PSSD.

@gbolduev , I want to talk more about Aldo.

Yes, Aldo will decrease K+, but that's because it functions as a negative feedback for K+. K+ increases Aldo, and Aldo is supposed to keep that increase in check. If the goal is tanking Aldo, then taking K+ is not wise.

Aldosterone: A forgotten mediator of the relationship between psychological stress and heart disease
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099453/

“Potassium directly increases aldosterone secretion by the adrenal cortex and aldosterone then lowers serum potassium by stimulating its excretion by the kidney. High dietary potassium intake increases plasma aldosterone and enhances the aldosterone response to a subsequent potassium or angiotensin II infusion."

I learned this first hand this week when I started having unrelenting anxiety a few days after upping my K+ intake with Cream of Tartar. 2 days after stopping the K+, anxiety relented. That pushed me to do a lot of research into Aldo.

"Aldosterone is an adrenal corticosteroid that activates the type I glucocorticoid receptor (otherwise known as mineralocorticoid receptor [MR]). Levels of aldosterone are increased by three primary secretagogues: (1) ACTH; (2) angiotensin II; (3) potassium. Thus, activation of both HPA axis and the rennin–angiotensin system leads to increases in aldosterone.”

Another thing to think about as maybe just a casual mention is that Dopamine inhibits Aldo, so maybe if we have dopamine being inhibited it could continue this cycle. Just a conjecture, but I'll throw it in here. It's from the same study.

"Dopamine inhibits aldosterone secretion in humans by a mechanism that is independent of the effects of prolactin, ACTH, electrolytes and the renin-angiotensin system"

You are correct in saying that Licorice will eventually lower Aldo. For people trying to follow along... Well I'll just paste from the literature directly because they describe it well...

glycyrrhizin as a potential treatment for chronic hepatitis C (1998)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2036.1998.00309.x/full

"11 β-Hydroxy-steroid-dehydrogenase is an enzyme complex which exists of two isoforms. The renal isoform 11 β-dehydrogenase converts cortisol to cortisone and the liver isoform 11 β-oxo-reductase catalyses the reverse reaction.16 Glycyrrhetinic acid does not inhibit the 11 β-oxo-reductase, but does inhibit the renal 11-β dehydrogenase.17 This leads to increased cortisol levels in the kidney. Because cortisol and aldosterone bind with the same affinity to the mineralocorticoid receptor, an increase in renal cortisol will result in a hypermineralocorticoid effect.15 Stimulation of the mineralocorticoid receptor leads to suppression of renin production, and subsequently to diminished formation of angiotensin I and aldosterone"

You're basically tricking your body into decreasing Aldo production. This effect is seen after a week of treatment, and has been seen to last 2-4 months after stopping Licorice (same source as above). They never check under a week though, so it's hard to say how long you need to take licorice for it to work. I'm assuming the 2 on 5 off schedule mentioned here is fine to start with, but it may have to be tweaked.

Anyways, the message that I wanted to get across is that you can't just raise K+ without increasing Aldo as well. So that won't work. You'd have to co-administer spiro or something. But just adding Potassium would increase Aldo and therefore not be helpful if you're using Aldo as a target for PSSD.




Please read what I wrote again. If you block aldo, with spiro. who cares that aldo will be raised if you feed potassium,. it is not working. In this time you take tons of potassium. Retain it while blocking aldo by spiro. And then you quit spiro. And just load on salt to lower aldo.

Much easier solution, is IV, sodium plus potassium chloride, that is it.

 

[Helen]

@Shadow, it can for the numbness for sure. Well, I guess you have to tie together the fact that decreasing SERT would desensitize 5-HT1A. But then you can see the dopamine connection and it all falls in line. I'd also add that Serotonin is deeply rooted in all things that we are. Serotonin is so preserved that it's even used in plants. It's one of the first signaling molecules in evolution. Because it's so ancient, it honestly regulates a ton of things, and that makes tacking it down hard. That's why you get studies that can show two completely different things if they change a tiny bit of their methodology.

If someone ever tells you: "A causes B, and B causes C, and C causes D"... Become instantly Skeptical. I know that I've done that a bit in outlining my theory above, so I would hope that people would be skeptical of what I say. That doesn't mean that it's not true, but I'm fairly confident that I could tie just about anything in the human body to serotonin or minerals in a few steps, but clearly not everything is the cure for PFS/PSSD.

@gbolduev , I want to talk more about Aldo.

Yes, Aldo will decrease K+, but that's because it functions as a negative feedback for K+. K+ increases Aldo, and Aldo is supposed to keep that increase in check. If the goal is tanking Aldo, then taking K+ is not wise.

Aldosterone: A forgotten mediator of the relationship between psychological stress and heart disease
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099453/

“Potassium directly increases aldosterone secretion by the adrenal cortex and aldosterone then lowers serum potassium by stimulating its excretion by the kidney. High dietary potassium intake increases plasma aldosterone and enhances the aldosterone response to a subsequent potassium or angiotensin II infusion."

I learned this first hand this week when I started having unrelenting anxiety a few days after upping my K+ intake with Cream of Tartar. 2 days after stopping the K+, anxiety relented. That pushed me to do a lot of research into Aldo.

"Aldosterone is an adrenal corticosteroid that activates the type I glucocorticoid receptor (otherwise known as mineralocorticoid receptor [MR]). Levels of aldosterone are increased by three primary secretagogues: (1) ACTH; (2) angiotensin II; (3) potassium. Thus, activation of both HPA axis and the rennin–angiotensin system leads to increases in aldosterone.”

Another thing to think about as maybe just a casual mention is that Dopamine inhibits Aldo, so maybe if we have dopamine being inhibited it could continue this cycle. Just a conjecture, but I'll throw it in here. It's from the same study.

"Dopamine inhibits aldosterone secretion in humans by a mechanism that is independent of the effects of prolactin, ACTH, electrolytes and the renin-angiotensin system"

You are correct in saying that Licorice will eventually lower Aldo. For people trying to follow along... Well I'll just paste from the literature directly because they describe it well...

glycyrrhizin as a potential treatment for chronic hepatitis C (1998)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2036.1998.00309.x/full

"11 β-Hydroxy-steroid-dehydrogenase is an enzyme complex which exists of two isoforms. The renal isoform 11 β-dehydrogenase converts cortisol to cortisone and the liver isoform 11 β-oxo-reductase catalyses the reverse reaction.16 Glycyrrhetinic acid does not inhibit the 11 β-oxo-reductase, but does inhibit the renal 11-β dehydrogenase.17 This leads to increased cortisol levels in the kidney. Because cortisol and aldosterone bind with the same affinity to the mineralocorticoid receptor, an increase in renal cortisol will result in a hypermineralocorticoid effect.15 Stimulation of the mineralocorticoid receptor leads to suppression of renin production, and subsequently to diminished formation of angiotensin I and aldosterone"

You're basically tricking your body into decreasing Aldo production. This effect is seen after a week of treatment, and has been seen to last 2-4 months after stopping Licorice (same source as above). They never check under a week though, so it's hard to say how long you need to take licorice for it to work. I'm assuming the 2 on 5 off schedule mentioned here is fine to start with, but it may have to be tweaked.

Anyways, the message that I wanted to get across is that you can't just raise K+ without increasing Aldo as well. So that won't work. You'd have to co-administer spiro or something. But just adding Potassium would increase Aldo and therefore not be helpful if you're using Aldo as a target for PSSD.

Please read what I wrote again. I wrote all that about the FORK created where you cant take potassium and sodium from food and and it will not work, and that is why you have to use licorice, or ella or spiro route to break the fork. You probably did not pay attention to my logic
If you block aldo, with spiro. who cares that aldo will be raised if you feed potassium,. it is not working. In this time you take tons of potassium. Retain it while blocking aldo by spiro. And then you quit spiro. And just load on salt to lower aldo.

Much easier solution, is IV, sodium plus potassium chloride, that is it. This is used in the hospital to treat this condition. Just reread what I wrote again. It is kind of weird that you write to me the simple interaction of aldo and potassium and so on. This is a given and not being talked about. I gave the solution to the situation from Shadow tests and explained the fork of alkalosis and how to deal with it without the IV. IV bypasses all of this, thus used in the hospital,. and you are cured in 1 day.

 

[Helen]

Ghost, to retain potassium you need to take it with magnesium or zinc. If you are PSSD, you cant retain potassium .It will lower your magnesium, since aldo lowers magnesium and potassium and taking potassium will increase aldo. This is a given .

Zinc magnesium b6 potassium is an ok combo for you . Progesterone will retain potassium while blocking aldo, also. So if you just increase progesterone 2 fold, it will do its job of overcoming aldo.

 

[Helen]

I would assume for pssd it is sodium potassium fork. and for pfs, it is potassium calcium fork.

 

[vicecaz]

I would assume for pssd it is sodium potassium fork. and for pfs, it is potassium calcium fork.

Would you put Post accutane syndrome with PFS? Or would you assume it is a completely different " fork " ?

I'll post my hair analysis and hormones results before Christmas, I already know I have extremely high progesterone

 

[Ghost]

Glad you understand that also. I haven't been on here for more than a week so if you mentioned it before that I didn't see it. I hope I didn't offend you at all, I just question everything lol. You have to realize that I've talked to dozens of people claiming to have figured out PSSD since 2014, and here we all are marching into 2018 in a few weeks.

I am looking into licorice and then adding k+ again. Obviously I'm gonna stick on Zinc and Mag during that time too. Probably will kick in some Na+ at the end. This will be taking place over the next week so I'll be checking back with updates on that. Spiro is another choice I will look to afterwards.

I'm worried about increasing Prog because of the reasons that I've listed in the previous pages (fighting Prog has been a key goal of mine for PSSD treatment)/also want to ask your opinion on this. So I think that adding Prog to fight Aldo is a bit worrying/not necessary unless I don't fully understand your methods/ timeline (in which case I am interested).

My point with complexity is that we're doing so many things with each thing that we change. Looking at the affects of Ella on Aldo is important, but it's also a PR antagonist, and Licorice has so many more actions than just this one. Finally, the only case of PSSD that I've seen licorice work for took 3 months of high dosage. To be fair, they didn't do anything else to speed it up, but it was far from an overnight fix-it-in-a-day type scenario.

Also note that I took potassium and DID feel the aldo change, so it was being absorbed. Nothing else changed in my diet and the anxiety increase was basically unparalleled in over 3 years of PSSD.

 

[Helen]

Glad you understand that also. I haven't been on here for more than a week so if you mentioned it before that I didn't see it. I hope I didn't offend you at all, I just question everything lol. You have to realize that I've talked to dozens of people claiming to have figured out PSSD since 2014, and here we all are marching into 2018 in a few weeks.

I am looking into licorice and then adding k+ again. Obviously I'm gonna stick on Zinc and Mag during that time too. Probably will kick in some Na+ at the end. This will be taking place over the next week so I'll be checking back with updates on that. Spiro is another choice I will look to afterwards.

I'm worried about increasing Prog because of the reasons that I've listed in the previous pages (fighting Prog has been a key goal of mine for PSSD treatment)/also want to ask your opinion on this. So I think that adding Prog to fight Aldo is a bit worrying/not necessary unless I don't fully understand your methods/ timeline (in which case I am interested).

My point with complexity is that we're doing so many things with each thing that we change. Looking at the affects of Ella on Aldo is important, but it's also a PR antagonist, and Licorice has so many more actions than just this one. Finally, the only case of PSSD that I've seen licorice work for took 3 months of high dosage. To be fair, they didn't do anything else to speed it up, but it was far from an overnight fix-it-in-a-day type scenario.

Also note that I took potassium and DID feel the aldo change, so it was being absorbed. Nothing else changed in my diet and the anxiety increase was basically unparalleled in over 3 years of PSSD.

LOL. I literally posted it today , Don't you see my 3 posts before yours. I explained there the aldo potassium and everything. Can't you see those posts? No worries, buddy, just trying to help throwing in some ideas.

I hope more people have blood tests like Shadow had. So we can compare? Do you have some may be?

 

[MNK99]

For resveratrol and or resveratrol + DHT, can one just use say https://tinyurl.com/y9z4jcbu ?
I mean for PFS. I'm rotating herbs right now and am feeling a bit better, but still am far from where I was.

If someone was using resveratrol + DHT, is the DHT supposed to be from a prohormone like Proviron?

What about NDT thyroid hormones, are those useful?

 

[Jaxx]

LOL. I literally posted it today , Don't you see my 3 posts before yours. I explained there the aldo potassium and everything. Can't you see those posts? No worries, buddy, just trying to help throwing in some ideas.

I hope more people have blood tests like Shadow had. So we can compare? Do you have some may be?

Ive summarized a couple of blood tests from the PSSD forum below:
http://www.pssdforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1048&start=190

Corragio:
17-OH PROGESTERONE 2.06 ng/ml [0.2-2.3] normal
DHEA-S 568.10 microg/dl [ 167-591] normal
ANDROSTENEDIONE 2.56 ng/ml [0.6-3.3] normal
TESTOSTERONE 7.51 ng/ml [1.42-9.23] normal/good
FREE TESTOSTERONE 29.35 pg/ml [ 27- 69.3] normal/low
17 BETA-ESTRADIOL 15 pg/ml [11-44] normal
I have also tested others hormones before: LH, FSH, TSH reflex, ACTH and PRL were normal. Also DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE was normal. Due to my bone pain and two fractures last summer I' ve also tested CALCITONINE and PARATORHORMONE that were normal. My CALCEMIA is a bit higher than normal 10.4 mg/dl [8.4-10.2].

Nonsense:
PROGESTERONE * 1.8 nmol/L [0.2 - 0.5] HIGH
Serum prolactin level 157 mu/L [60 - 300]
Serum oestradiol level 139 pmol/L [0 - 190]
Serum testosterone level 32.6 nmol/L [10 - 30] HIGH
Serum sex hormone binding globulin level 39 nmol/L [15 - 55]

Marsupial:
A 17-hydroxyprogesteron 5.63 nmol/l 1.90-6.52 [*]
Androstendion 11.28 nmol/l 1.75-8.60 [ ]*
A Progesteron 0.400 nmol/l 0.000-0.474 [*]

Juvo:
Test 585 range 300 - 1080 ng/dL
Test Free % 2.0 range 1.6 - 2.9%
Test Free Calc 119 range 47 - 244 pg/mL
SHBG 30 range 11 - 80 nmol/L
DEHYDROEPIANDROSTERONE SULFATE 305 mcg/dl range 85 - 690 mcg/dl
Androstenedione 0.768 ng/mL range 0.330 - 1.340 ng/mL
17-Hydroxyprogesterone, HPLC-MS/MS 68.00 ng/dL <=138.00 ng/dL
TSH 4.64 (H) range 0.20 - 4.50 uIU/mL
Free T4 0.9 range 0.7 - 1.5 ng/dL
Progesterone adult 0.3 ng/ml standard range 0.0-0.2

My own tests all came normal (Testosterone, LH, FSH, Prolactin, FT4, TSH) but doc didnt test for progesteron or estradiol, even after making a case for it. (guess i need to go to a private lab)

 

[Helen]

Yes, but you need to test electrolytes, it is understandable that progesterone is high .

 

[Jaxx]

The insights that progesterone was high within the PSSD community is pretty new, not many additional tests were carried out i guess. Maybe some others have some other information available.
Just to give you an idea of the struggle, my endo refuses to test for progesterone as it "doesnt make any sense for men" and my GP wont test it as "he wouldnt know what it a high value implicates".

I am very much interested in testing the ella route, as it is OTC here. Just want to make sure i make it a clean trial.

 

[Ghost]

I have tons more PSSD blood results that I'll dig out and put up here as well as a lot of Progesterone literature. I have written a few programs/algorithms that I used to analyze a lot of the PSSD data, but it's hard when people used different labs, with different drugs, and in different countries.

I'm in the middle of exam season at university right now so I really have no time other than to jump on here quick but around christmas time I'll be going back and translating it over to the PSSD Forum and integrating it with the work we've already done.

 

[nonsense]

I am one of the guys whose results Jaxx posted. I don't have serum values, but I do have hair tests. Lowish Mg, Mn,K and Na. Terrible ratios. (linked below). What complicates things for me is that I am currently taking Lyrica + Agomelatine - neither of those did anything for me sexually - good or bad. I couldn't cope well with the thought that I may never have my sexuality back so those were a last resort. So not really sure how to proceed.

Nonsense:
PROGESTERONE * 1.8 nmol/L [0.2 - 0.5] HIGH
Serum prolactin level 157 mu/L [60 - 300]
Serum oestradiol level 139 pmol/L [0 - 190]
Serum testosterone level 32.6 nmol/L [10 - 30] HIGH
Serum sex hormone binding globulin level 39 nmol/L [15 - 55]



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[Steve]

I would assume for pssd it is sodium potassium fork. and for pfs, it is potassium calcium fork.

If we had pfs and then we took 5-htp for 2 to 3 months after we had pfs, could we have both pfs and pssd?

If so, what would we have to do for that?

 

[wuf]

[mention]gbolduev[/mention]
Do you think hyperbaric chamber could help to restore tissue's functions?

 

[MNK99]

[mention]gbolduev[/mention]
Do you think I can use resveratrol daily with CD's herbs?

Or is resveratrol (and Res+DHT) supposed to be cycled on and off?
MAYBE used for several days/weeks or so...

I don't have DHT, R-andro etc. But I do have Res coming in today and I would like to try it.

 

[wuf]

[mention]gbolduev[/mention]
are you back in track after your minerals route? or you still have issue from finasteride?

 

[ruprmurdoch]

"Aldosterone is an adrenal corticosteroid that activates the type I glucocorticoid receptor (otherwise known as mineralocorticoid receptor [MR]). Levels of aldosterone are increased by three primary secretagogues: (1) ACTH; (2) angiotensin II; (3) potassium. Thus, activation of both HPA axis and the rennin–angiotensin system leads to increases in aldosterone.”

High acth=low aldosterone
low acth=high aldosterone