Brainstorming & Ideas (PFS - Gbol)

[ruprmurdoch]

A question that I do have.

Chicken or the egg? High Prog or Low K+?

Which comes first, and I honestly don't know enough of this literature to say yet... Does K+ decrease Prog receptors? I thought I had read that here? The study above seems to paint a different picture: that lowered K+ increases Prog levels. It doesn't seem to me that decreasing Prog would lower receptor levels, but again maybe I'm missing something and I admittedly have only looked at a handful of papers in this field.

I will tell you my case: I have partially empty sella syndrome, my pituitary height is 3mm (should be between 8-6mm). I release a lot of acth, and my cortisol and progesterone is high. My aldosterone is lowish. I crave for bananas,tomatoes, other potasium rich product. This is one of cases.

 

[ruprmurdoch]

Case #1 – agonized receptors
1) Clomiphene ED 150mg 3 days, 100mg 4 days, 50mg 2 weeks, 25mg 4 weeks; cabergoline 0.25mg E4D; 2 weeks after start, begin taking zinc gluconate 20-50mg + NAD 500mg + vitamin E
*can substitute enclompihene for clomiphene at half the dose
*can substitute dexamethasone for clomiphene as well
*key is to slowly reduce the dose of clomiphene or substitute

Can someone explain me what is the role of vit E and NAD in this protocol. As far as I understand zinc is for raising progesterone. Does Vit E and NAD raise any other specific hormones?

 

[Willylong98]

What form of DHT should be taken when doing so?

 

[TubZy]

[QUOTE="namaste, post: 13, member: 50"
Case #1 – agonized receptors
1) Clomiphene ED 150mg 3 days, 100mg 4 days, 50mg 2 weeks, 25mg 4 weeks; cabergoline 0.25mg E4D; 2 weeks after start, begin taking zinc gluconate 20-50mg + NAD 500mg + vitamin E
*can substitute enclompihene for clomiphene at half the dose
*can substitute dexamethasone for clomiphene as well
*key is to slowly reduce the dose of clomiphene or substitute

I believe zinc and NAD are on a ratio. Taking just one with deplete the other hence why taking them both at the same time would be ideal.

@gbolduev

 

[Admiral]

Hello guys,

Long, more than a decade long sufferer of PFS here. Willing to try this protocol badly, but I can’t figure out if I need to go the antagonized route or the agonized one.

My levels are: low T, low DHT, low cortisol, low DHEA, low progesterone, low estrogen and a highish TSH.

Anyone willing to help me a bit would be awesome..

 

[Helen]

Hello guys,

Long, more than a decade long sufferer of PFS here. Willing to try this protocol badly, but I can’t figure out if I need to go the antagonized route or the agonized one.

My levels are: low T, low DHT, low cortisol, low DHEA, low progesterone, low estrogen and a highish TSH.

Anyone willing to help me a bit would be awesome..

Just wait a little bit. We are getting to the bottom of it.

 

[Admiral]

Just wait a little bit. We are getting to the bottom of it.

Thanks man. Love your work. I’ll check in later.

 

[mattyb]

Hello guys,

Long, more than a decade long sufferer of PFS here. Willing to try this protocol badly, but I can’t figure out if I need to go the antagonized route or the agonized one.

My levels are: low T, low DHT, low cortisol, low DHEA, low progesterone, low estrogen and a highish TSH.

Anyone willing to help me a bit would be awesome..

Just curious, but what is your cholesterol intake like? Blood cholesterol levels?

 

[Admiral]

Just curious, but what is your cholesterol intake like? Blood cholesterol levels?

It was 4.6 (0 - 5.0) last time I checked.

 

[mattyb]

So highish cholesterol and entire steroid pathway is downregulated. Have you had pregnenolone levels checked? Problem is either p450scc or 3b-HSD, and pregnenolone levels would tell us which it is. Since cholesterol is borderline high I am guessing p450scc, but if you are PFS than 3b-HSD is likely too. Could also be STAR protein limiting p450scc.

Easy treatment for upregulating p450scc or STAR protein would be eustress (something like IF/CR/exercise) + high dietary cholesterol intake + betaine HCl followed by high dietary protein intake. m_arch is following a similar plan and is having success (using just betaine HCl and IF/exercise/breathing exercises). I think high cholesterol and protein intake after 1-2 weeks would be a good idea as well.

 

[Helen]

Matty, cholesterol is high , 450scc is downregulated and HCL with the protein, is exactly zinc finger approach. 450scc cant put pregnenolone to work, since this will put potassium in the cell. And it cant be done with insensitive cortisol. Thus metabolism in the crapper and once potassium goes into the cell, this will put copper in there, and will make estrogen work. As long as estrogen is back on line , DHT will be working. This is a mechanism for PFS

YOu see this person is a decade sufferer for PFS. and his progesterone and cortisol are already low. this is what protein deficiency is doing along with stomach acid deficiency. Normally progesterone and cortisol are high in PFS but go lower and lower and lower and lower thru years.

Basically the same as in all other diseases and conditions that we discussed

 

[Admiral]

I appreciate the information, but it really goes over my head. I’ve never tested pregnenolone. But you are right, every hormone is on the lower side, with T, E and progesterone sometimes even below baseline. DHT is hoovering between 0.95 and 1.02 (1.0 - 2.9) as well.

I know about betaine Hcl, intermittent fasting. Could definitely look more into that. Don’t quite get the extra cholesterol intake when it’s aready quite high, though. But you both seem very well educated on all of this.

I am not a quick learner when it comes to all this stuff.. Sorry about that.

 

[mattyb]

Matty, cholesterol is high , 450scc is downregulated and HCL with the protein, is exactly zinc finger approach. 450scc cant put pregnenolone to work, since this will put potassium in the cell. And it cant be done with insensitive cortisol. Thus metabolism in the crapper and once potassium goes into the cell, this will put copper in there, and will make estrogen work. As long as estrogen is back on line , DHT will be working. This is a mechanism for PFS

YOu see this person is a decade sufferer for PFS. and his progesterone and cortisol are already low. this is what protein deficiency is doing along with stomach acid deficiency. Normally progesterone and cortisol are high in PFS but go lower and lower and lower and lower thru years.

Basically the same as in all other diseases and conditions that we discussed

That makes sense. I missed the detail about being a 10-year sufferer. This is exactly what I was talking about how late stage diseases look different than early stage. Very important to focus on early stage disease conditions and fix those. Thanks for the clarification, makes a lot of sense.

In this type of late stage PFS, how do we differentiate between agonized and antagonized receptors? Do we assume agonized because hormones are low, even if they may have been antagonized at the beginning? Or do they remain antagonized despite low hormone levels?

 

[Helen]

I think agonised and antagonised basically means in this context cysteine to histidine ratio. low cysteine -fast oxidizer, low histidine - slow oxidizer. high and low progesterone. But fast oxidizer in this case is not a true fast oxidizer, it is 4 highs oxidizer. meaning that person person was not utilizing CO2 properly, but finasteride forced his potassium into the cell.

I think this is what finasteride does. Basically there is some one with hairloss, who is not utilizing CO2 properly. Potassium stays down in the cell in this case. thyroid is lowered, calcification, hairloss. they take something like finasteride, and just increase progesterone with cortisol at the same time. Boom this allows thyroid hormone to work in the cell,since there is cortisol now . But I guess this dowregulates or upregulated cysteine to histidine ratio depending on the metabolism pre fin. For some people they would need more cortisol and for some more progesterone. so the receptors adjust.


I guess the body will take proper ratios if you force it with HCL. The only thing I am worried about is iron absorbtion with HCL.

 

[Admiral]

I’ll add hcl, up my protein and see from there. Any other quick advice I can get before I’ll wait for more observations and perhaps a protocol?

For what it’s worth, my hormones reached baseline levels but have been there consequently for years now. My body feels and looks like a 70 year old because of it. Especially my face.

Tried a lot, but all failed.

 

[mattyb]

We could chelate iron with things like sage and rosemary? Or stop iron absorption with things like coffee. The HCl would only be temporary too, so short term increase in iron uptake might not be a huge problem, especially if it's after a fast or something like that. The person could always chelate the iron later on too by donating blood or fasting in the future.

 

[gaivs]

Normally progesterone and cortisol are high in PFS but go lower and lower and lower and lower thru years

I have pfs for 8 years now. Last time I tested, 2 months ago, I had progesterone above range and cortisol in the low side of the range. Does this makes sense?

 

[joekool]

Hey Gaivs, couple points... progesterone in and of itself is a 5AR blocker (more so that it has a higher affinity for 5ar, which is why Finasteride starts as a progesterone)... so once you're progesterone dominant, it creates a vicious cycle of lowering dht...

RU is an anti-prog so it helps clear it out and give a starting point of recovery... Have you ever had any thyroid levels checked in your PFS time?

 

[gaivs]

Hey Gaivs, couple points... progesterone in and of itself is a 5AR blocker (more so that it has a higher affinity for 5ar, which is why Finasteride starts as a progesterone)... so once you're progesterone dominant, it creates a vicious cycle of lowering dht...

RU is an anti-prog so it helps clear it out and give a starting point of recovery... Have you ever had any thyroid levels checked in your PFS time?

Hey joekool I tested TSH and free T4 2 months ago also. TSH in range and T4 high, above range. I am reading the theories and still dont know what should I do The DHT test was also high above range.

I have ella in hand now. Didnt take it yet tho. But RU I cant get it easy. And it is too expensive to try to get it and dont receive.

 

[Aleksandr]

So highish cholesterol and entire steroid pathway is downregulated. Have you had pregnenolone levels checked? Problem is either p450scc or 3b-HSD, and pregnenolone levels would tell us which it is. Since cholesterol is borderline high I am guessing p450scc, but if you are PFS than 3b-HSD is likely too. Could also be STAR protein limiting p450scc.

Easy treatment for upregulating p450scc or STAR protein would be eustress (something like IF/CR/exercise) + high dietary cholesterol intake + betaine HCl followed by high dietary protein intake. m_arch is following a similar plan and is having success (using just betaine HCl and IF/exercise/breathing exercises). I think high cholesterol and protein intake after 1-2 weeks would be a good idea as well.

Actually i crave / consume a lot of whole egg mayo. I bet thats high in cholesterol?

I also crave / consume a lot of protein, although mostly meat. But i am trying to get morr seafood in. Often mackerel or tuna with mayo and rice. My digestion has been bad the last 5 years or so. Earlier this year my doc said i had IBS (was getting stabbing pains) but TWY on raypeatforum suggested hcl witg meals. So i popped 3 caps with each meal for months. I must have gone through 750+ capsules 500mg each. Instantly my bowel movements turn perfect on HCL , like the next day.

Actually my symptoms sound a lot like @Admiral , despite eating a lot of protein and cholesterol i dont feel like i have high hormone levels. My hair test suspected high aldosterone levels (because of high sodium) but i havent had bloods done.

I just stopped taking hcl the last few months cos of the $$$, and i havent been needing it until lately. But i think part of the reason is that ive been on a diet that i know digests well for me, and ive had a few blowouts lately cos christmas.

@gbolduev did you say popping hcl for a long time wasnt a good idea? Whats the logic behind this?