Brainstorming & Ideas (PFS - Gbol)

[dante]

Basically, if you are stressed you will use a lot of pregnenolone to make progesterone for cortisol and aldosterone pathway and will have very little DHEA

This so called "Pregnenolone steal theory",hasn't it been debunked ? Haidut had provided evidences against it anyways, besides, low dose preg also crosses the blood brain barrier ,where it will increase GABAergic signaling in the hypothalamus hence decreasing CRH and downstream Cascade. Imo,if Pregnenolone increases cortisol at all in some cases,it might not be due to adrenal cortex taking up Pregnenolone and making cortisol but rather due to some other reason ,like Pregnenolone causing hypoglycemia and cortisol rising in order to correct it. What do you think?

 

[Helen]

taking pregnenolone while cortisol is high, will cause iron deficiency and hairloss, which many observed on Ray Peat forum. And yes pregnenolone will increase cortisol if cortisol is needed. Taking in any of these hormones will disregulate the mineral balance. and will cause problems.

this is the mechanism how excessive pregnenolone can lower cortisol. and all other steroids for that matter.

Pregnenolone will increase progesterone , progesterone will retain potassium , potassium will speed up metabolism. faster metabolism will increase cortisol and adrenaline. Hypoglycemia is caused by the fact, that pregnenolone will chelate iron. And iron is needed for progesterone to cortisol conversion.

 

[Helen]

Guys , I think we should stay within the topic of this thread.

 

[TubZy]

Guys , I think we should stay within the topic of this thread.

Makes sense now for the magesnium since copper puts pressure on magnesium and can lower it which you don't want. So you supplement both copper and mag at the same time.

Can you go over where iron comes in if needed and how much to use?

 

[bruschi11]

For the past few months, the user gbolduev has been discussing his theory on PFS over at the Ray Peat forum. Due to issues with moderation we thought it’d be best if the discussion was moved over here. This theory might also apply to other syndromes such as PSSD and post-Accutane, so stay tuned if you suffer from those.

Gbolduev has stated that drugs like finasteride act as a progestin in the body; meaning, they bind to progesterone receptors. This has many downstream effects, most notably on 3BHSD and many other enzymes (5ar), hormones (estradiol, cortisol, DHT), and minerals (potassium). Eventually, the body gets thrown into a chronic state of imbalance from which it is hard to recover.

The thought is that some people suffer from agonized prog receptors, while others suffer from antagonized receptors. Here are a few treatment protocols that were suggested for each case:

Case #1 – agonized receptors
1) Clomiphene ED 150mg 3 days, 100mg 4 days, 50mg 2 weeks, 25mg 4 weeks; cabergoline 0.25mg E4D; 2 weeks after start, begin taking zinc gluconate 20-50mg + NAD 500mg + vitamin E
*can substitute enclompihene for clomiphene at half the dose
*can substitute dexamethasone for clomiphene as well
*key is to slowly reduce the dose of clomiphene or substitute
2) Progesterone 50-400mg ED for 1 week w/ calorie restriction; then start on zinc + NAD
3) Magnesium 1000mg + B6 100-200mg + NAD 2000mg + zinc 100-200mg
4) Methylation using Thorne Multi-Vitamin Elite
5) Thyroid hormone + zinc + NAD

Case #2 – antagonized receptors
1) Copper 10mg ED; after 3 weeks add in zinc + NAD + magnesium + manganese + B6
2) High-dose manganese + co-factors
3) Estradiol + DHT
4) Andro + relora + licorice root
5) Pine pollen + relora + licorice root
6) Pine pollen + relora + nettle

There are ongoing trials with RU486 taking place. Others have tried fasting, methylation, pine pollen, and Ella (another anti-progestin) with good results. If you are unsure of which “case” you might fit into or have any questions in general, please post here. There are many people willing to help!

Guys I've decided to take Case #2 here and follow route number 2) High-dose Manganese + cofactors for the time being. I've mentioned this several times that I had a severe mycoplasma infection which depleted me of manganese. I'm done fasting, so ready to add in the manganese to help restore that pathway and help me heal from PFS now.

Anyways, 1) what am I looking for when you guys say cofactors? I never got that yet and have been reading this site for over a month haha. I will be taking a Thorne Extra multivitamin- does this fill the void for cofactors??

2) What brand of manganese and other minerals have we been using here?

Thanks!

(And yea my hair has greyed faster than every single one of my friends my age. I'm 29. Will be interesting how fixing a severe manganese deficiency has on that.)

 

[wuf]

Today I started Scene's protocol: 2mg copper + 150mg magnesium + 100mg potassium.
I want to try it for few days and then give a rest, I have paranoia of hurting my self so I will take it with caution.
My erections are aready 100%, what I am missing is libido and feeling horny in my brain.. I mean, it's there but the signal is weaker than before.
Any comments?
Should I take this protocol on empty or full stomach?
Any other suggestion.
Thanks
[mention]Scenes[/mention]
[mention]gbolduev[/mention]
[mention]TubZy[/mention]

 

[Jaxx]

Good luck, would be nice to log it seperately, its still a bit fuzzy atm

 

[wuf]

I used copper (2.5mg) + magnesium (150mg) + potassium (99mg) yesterday night, and today I don't feel the bests sexually speaking.
I have zero libido and stomach issue.

 

[TubZy]

I used copper (2.5mg) + magnesium (150mg) + potassium (99mg) yesterday night, and today I don't feel the bests sexually speaking.
I have zero libido and stomach issue.

Start your own log

 

[BeLikeWater]

Gbolduev whats your opinion of progesterone as treatment, seems lots of people recovered from using it.

 

[Helen]

Gbolduev whats your opinion of progesterone as treatment, seems lots of people recovered from using it.

I wrote about it all extensively. Progesterone is one of the protocols. Did not you read the first page of this thread?

I mentioned either RU , or high dose progesterone

Or now the mineral protocol that I am using

 

[galio23]

So copper without magnesium and potassium is 100% useless? I tried eating beef liver in the past (up to 200-300 grams at one sitting) just because of the copper content and felt nothing. Do you think i should try separate copper supplement+ magnesium/potassium?

Thanks

 

[Goose12]

Here is a quote from an article about copper toxicity
http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperToxDoc.htm

"The Copper Personality
The copper personality refers to the observation that certain individuals tend to accumulate copper, perhaps as a physical or psychological mechanism that is adaptive for these individuals. Copper accumulation results in various degrees of detachment from reality which some have labeled spaciness.

The detachment enables these individuals to better cope with stress. People with a copper personality tend to be intelligent, creative, childlike and artistic."

The whole article is very interesting and fits what [mention]gbolduev[/mention] says about copper. I thought this quote was interesting because it generally describes my personality and since pfs, being stuck in my head has gotten worse, but lately I have been improving. This seems like a common symptoms pfs sufferers share, being spaced out and not living in the now.

Another interesting thing in the article is it mentions vitamin C chelates copper and I noticed a lot of benefits from vitamin C to my all around health, especially dark circles under my eyes. I know this has been mentioned before I just wanted to put it out there.

 

[Goose12]

Here is another quote from the article since copper seems to be a big subject right now.

"
Effects Of Copper On Other Minerals
Copper, in excess, tends to lower manganese, zinc and potassium levels. Copper toxicity can also result in deficiency of vitamin C and B6, inositol, folic acid and rutin.

Copper tends to increase tissue levels of calcium and sodium.

Copper can displace iron from the liver.

Effects Of Other Minerals And Vitamins On Copper
Mercury, cadmium and zinc – compete for absorption.
Molybdenum and sulfur – bind copper in the intestine.
Iron and manganese – remove copper from the liver.
Zinc – lowers copper levels in the blood.
Vitamin C – chelates copper in the blood.
Vitamin B6, folic acid and niacin are also copper antagonists.
Cobalt is synergetic with copper"

 

[vicecaz]

Thanks for those posts Goose
Being post accutane I also feel spaced out/not living in the now/anhedonic
A lot of people on the accutane board had insane amount of copper when they performed a hair test too

 

[Anonymous]

DO you think the potassium and magnesium is beef liver is enough to make the copper bioavailable ?

 

[Helen]

DO you think the potassium and magnesium is beef liver is enough to make the copper bioavailable ?

NO

 

[Anonymous]

@Gbolduev:

Do you think digestion and personality, and other issues will be solved with the mineral protocol?
When do you think you will post it?
Thanks and Much Appreciated.

 

[Anonymous]

-Is it ok to take pine pollen extract on the water fast?
-Is 4 days significant enough of a fast to help sensitize my androgen receptors?
I knw its not the best, just wondering?
-when do you think the protocol will be posted?
- is it ok to follow Copper, Potassium, Magnesium until then?

 

[Raincoast]

Does carnosine replace resveratrol (cylcling) for those with high copper? Or can I use them together?