Hair loss theory

[Helen]

Even in slow metabolism by killing 3 beta hsd it will probably benefit your hair. Since the body cant handle the metabolic rate even if it is very very slow.

This is why we have people @TubZy who see that when they kill their metabolism with something their hair is thicker, but they feel very very slow.

But the idea is not to kill the metabolism , but to allow the body to produce enough horomones and antioxidants to raise the metabolism

LIke in 3 beta hsd deficiency, the actual enzyme is not deficient. it is fine. The problem is NAD. Without NAD this enzyme does not make progesterone, Why doesnt this enzyme make progesterone. Since progesterone will retain potassium and potassium will speed you up , speed up your thyroid effect , and if there is no NAD< then there is no NADPH. And if there is no NADPH , then by speeding up you wont be able to handle oxidative stress.


This is why people go on progesterone , which is the end product of 3 beta hsd, that speeds up the metabolism, and they feel better, energy wise, but could have hairloss if they have too little iron, since progesterone wont convert into cortisol without iron.. And they will be putting pressure on already low cortisol by increasing the metabolic rate. Same as with the thyroid. People with low 3beta hsd take the thyroid and start feeling more energy at first but then they will be running on adrenaline , since cortisol wont be there, they cant make it without 3 beta hsd. And to run on adrenaline you will be using b12 and folic acid, and folinic acid will go down. And folinic acid is what make DNA repair and grows hair.


So this is why 3 beta hsd is down in hairloss, it does not want to lift up metabolism. And to make this 3 beta hsd work, you need to make NAD work and NADPH work. So the body has the antioxidation . for the faster metabolism.

This is why if you are low on 3 beta and dont make any cortisol, then you will run on adrenaline, and to make adrenaline you need what? you need folic acid and b12 and protein.( methionine and cysteine) . And all your folic acid will go onto producing methylfolate. And folinic acid will be down. but it is folinic acid which produces the DNA repair and responsible to eNOS and hair repair.


This is why if you want to repair your metabolism you need to repair your sugar metabolism and NAD and NADPH levels , but if you just want the hair , then you just provide what the body is wasting and spending to run on in hairloss and that is folinic acid.

 

[Helen]

@tallglass13 This is why women keep taking iron supplements and they cant handle thyroid supplements without iron.

Since without iron your body cant convert make steroids and cant make cortisol. So these women cant handle thyroid supplements at all without cortisol.. But as soon as they add iron or cortisol to their t3. Boom their metabolism goes up right away. . Some people add progesterone with t3. but then you will need iron to convert progesterone to cortisol, otherwise you will run on adrenaline again.

This is why B12 deficiency folinic acid deficiency causes crazy hairloss. Iron deficiency causes insane hairloss in women.


There are tons of different hairlosses for different people.

YOU need vitamins b1 b2 b3 vitamin C vitamin E , all this will provide antioxidation, And also you need to replenish folinic acid and b12. And pottassium rich foods.

 

[Helen]

@tallglass13 This is why it is important to look at your the tests and see high or low cortisol or high and low progesterone and their output in the urine. The output in the urine can be very very low which I see all the time, means that the body cant make enough cortisol and it has to conserve it You need to run steroids pathway, so the body can make enough cortisol and then it will start dumping it in the urine. If you have high urine cortisol and high blood cortisol that is a dif picture, I saw it may be in 5% of all cases that I saw.

low cortisol tells you that you are imbalanced just as high cortisol, I never understood this thesis about lowering cortisol in people on RPF.

Gazzillion of people are taking hydrocortisones and prednisones, and dexa, since they have low cortisol in blood and doctors give it to them. IS it wrong to give that cortisol to those people yes , it is, mainly they give it with the thyroid which is better.

But this is to show you that majority of people have really low cortisol when they are very sick. Just look online, every second sick person online takes cortisol subs. It is wrong to take them. But it is also stupid to lower cortisol in those people LOL To raise cortisol you need to increase potassium in the cell. That is done with PROGESTERONE> you take progesterone , then you quit, you will have higher cortisol than before)) since you will have more potassium in the cell.

Potassium supplements raise cortisol levels if you also have iron. This is why I give women potassium and iron along with b2.and their low cortisol levels in blood go up.


it is all about the balance, not the crazy stuff, like kill all serotonin, kill all the cortisol, kill all adrenaline LOL What are you going to run on , sugar? you cant run only on sugar it is impossible, unless you eat like a baboon 24/7 non stop .

YOu need to run on sugar on normal adrenaline, on normal cortisol. If any of those oxidation means are impaired, you run into the problems.

You will run into problem with low cortisol, since that will put the pressure on adrenaline. you will run into problems with high cortisol Cushings, since it will cause hypokalemia. You will int problems if you have low adrenaline, which will cause collapse. ETC. You will run into problem when you have high adrenaline which will cause hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis.

 

[Troy]

@Helen Is there any protocol you have devised for any of the different types of mpb?

 

[Helen]

@Helen Is there any protocol you have devised for any of the different types of mpb?

I would use b1 b2 b3, plus protein, plus adenosyl/ hydroxy b12 plus folinic acid. Plus potassium. rich foods. Plus vitamin C and E.

 

[dante]

It is a known fact that corticosteroids regrow hair in alopecia areata. alopecia areata - systemic corticosteroids for alopecia areata


Dexamethasone which is cortisol also treats allopecia universialis , this is not dogs and cats we are talking about, https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(15)02602-X/abstract
.

Thought it was because of cortisol's immuno-suppressant properties !!

Danny Roddy never had MPB IMO. Diffuse hairloss has nothing to do with MPB

This might be true but his doc handed him a finasteride prescription if i remember correctly

So this is why 3 beta hsd is down in hairloss, it does not want to lift up metabolism

I thought 3b-HSD is upregulated in scalp(alopecic skin) in people suffering from MPB
Regional scalp differences of the androgenic metabolic pattern in subjects affected by male pattern baldness. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Helen]

Thought it was because of cortisol's immuno-suppressant properties !!


This might be true but his doc handed him a finasteride prescription if i remember correctly



I thought 3b-HSD is upregulated in scalp(alopecic skin) in people suffering from MPB
Regional scalp differences of the androgenic metabolic pattern in subjects affected by male pattern baldness. - PubMed - NCBI

I posted a link where people use it topically( cortisol) for MPB and hair grows back. Cortisol decrease HDC enzyme which turns histidine into histamine. Thus it is immunosuppressive. It frees up more histidine and this higher histidine level allows folic acid to be converted to folinic acid. And thus you grow hair. If there is no cortisol , immune system will be too active. and you will have low histidine levels which will cause a block in the folate cycle.

I am not proposing cortisol against MPB, I am just pointing out what it does since someone posted some studies for alopecia X which has nothing to do with the MPB And I posted the studies using cortisol to completely regrow hair on the bald head in 2 types of alopecia in humans.
And folks using cortisol supplements hydrocortisone for MPB as I posted.

I dont rec any of these means. This is just to show that cortisol has nothing to do with it. And moreever not enough cortisol will lead to more hairloss. and we see in people who stop cortisol supplements after being on them for a while. All of them lose all their hair and cortisol levels are nil at that point.

As far as Roddy. He did not have any MPB, he has stress related hairloss, Which is more a dietary issue. went keto. burned all b12 and folic acid for adrenaline, got the hairloss.
But some real MPB people can have genetic mutation in all these pathways. And thus hairloss. And diet wont help them.


I know people whos doctor also handed them the finasterid prescription )) What do doctors know? And i know people who actually lost more hair on finasteride.


3 beta hsd question.
may be the quantity of the enzyme is high, since it is not reacting with anything.

Same as glutathione peroxidase levels will be high, if there is no glutathione. So glutathione peroxidase does not react with anything , and the levels stay high, but high levels of glutathione peroxidase cant neutralize the hydrogen peroxide. they need glutathione for that. Thus glutathione peroxidase enzyme is not working, it does nothing. but its levels are HIGH.

Same with 3 beta hsd. high levels of the enzyme cant do anything unless you have NAD. Without NAD it does not work. so the actual enzyme levels could be high. but the enzyme does not have any outcome. This is what I write. this is why you have high DHEA, high DHT< high andro since 3 beta does not work.

When I say low or high 3 beta hsd, I dont mean the enzyme. I mean the action of the enzyme.


To fix the MPB IMO< you need to have balanced oxidation. Sugar fats and protein. And not high or slow thyroid.

You need balanced oxidation of sugars not too high and not too low. IF you go too high on sugar oxidation you will have a diffuse hairloss.

If you have too slow sugar oxidation you will run on adrenaline too much, and you will spend b12 and folic acid , and folinic acid will be low and you simply wont even make hair and Nitric oxide wil be down and nitric oxide signals Vegf to keep growing stuff.

If you have a problem with potassium levels or toxicity or iron deficieny you will have low cortisol, with low cortisol you will have more pressure on adrenaline system yet again and again hairloss.


This is why oversexed people lose hair. they lose histidine and nitric oxide. And folinic acid goes down. Since histidine is a limiting factor of converting folic acid into tetrafolate. And thus no folinic acid, Folinic acid is what grows hair. This is why when I chelate I take folinic acid later to restore my hair. And so do chemotherapy people. they all take folinic acid , folic acid wont work. But folinic will.

 

[dante]

I dont rec any of these means. This is just to show that cortisol has nothing to do with it. And moreever not enough cortisol will lead to more hairloss. and we see in people who stop cortisol supplements after being on them for a while. All of them lose all their hair and cortisol levels are nil at that point.

Yeah , i understand, cortisol suppresses inflammation and excessive immune response and forcibly reducing it might increase inflammation even more and increase the hair loss so very low cortisol can cause hair loss but then again we have Cushing's Syndrome where there is very high cortisol and people who suffer from it also lose hair in an MPB fashion ,right ??

As far as Roddy. He did not have any MBP, he has stress related hairloss, Which is more a dietary issue. went keto. burned all b12 and folic acid for adrenaline, got the hairloss

i think he wrote in his book that he went keto in order to reduce his hair loss

And i know people who actually lost more hair on finasteride.

Yes, it's indeed very rare but it does happen and some people get "hyper-androgenic" responses on fin like increased sebum, increased hair loss etc. Why do you think it happens ?

3 beta hsd question.
may be the quantity of the enzyme is high, since it is not reacting with anything.
When I say low or high 3 beta hsd, I dont mean the enzyme. I mean the action of the enzyme.

Yeah but in the paper above, the authors try to guess the activity of 3a-HSD and 3b-HSD by providing 3H-DHT as substrates and then calculate the respective metabolites in alopecia vs non-alopecic skin .
From the paper above -
"3-alpha,beta-hydroxysteroid oxoreductase (3-alpha, beta-HO) was studied using 3H-DHT as precursor and measuring the corresponding formed 3-alpha- and 3-beta-androstanediols (alpha DIOL and beta DIOL). The beta DIOL was the predominant metabolite and total 3-alpha, beta-HO activity was higher in alopecic skin (12.4 pmol/g tissue/h) than in non alopecic areas (8.4 pmol/g tissue/h)
The greater formation of beta DIOL in the sebaceous glands-enriched alopecic skin supports the hypothesis for a specific role of this metabolite in the control of the sebaceous activity"
Well, it clearly means that the enzyme is "acting" all right.

(If i have made any mistake in interpreting the paper , please mention it )

 

[Helen]

Yeah , i understand, cortisol suppresses inflammation and excessive immune response and forcibly reducing it might increase inflammation even more and increase the hair loss so very low cortisol can cause hair loss but then again we have Cushing's Syndrome where there is very high cortisol and people who suffer from it also lose hair in an MPB fashion ,right ??


i think he wrote in his book that he went keto in order to reduce his hair loss


Yes, it's indeed very rare but it does happen and some people get "hyper-androgenic" responses on fin like increased sebum, increased hair loss etc. Why do you think it happens ?


Yeah but in the paper above, the authors try to guess the activity of 3a-HSD and 3b-HSD by providing 3H-DHT as substrates and then calculate the respective metabolites in alopecia vs non-alopecic skin .
From the paper above -
"3-alpha,beta-hydroxysteroid oxoreductase (3-alpha, beta-HO) was studied using 3H-DHT as precursor and measuring the corresponding formed 3-alpha- and 3-beta-androstanediols (alpha DIOL and beta DIOL). The beta DIOL was the predominant metabolite and total 3-alpha, beta-HO activity was higher in alopecic skin (12.4 pmol/g tissue/h) than in non alopecic areas (8.4 pmol/g tissue/h)
The greater formation of beta DIOL in the sebaceous glands-enriched alopecic skin supports the hypothesis for a specific role of this metabolite in the control of the sebaceous activity"
Well, it clearly means that the enzyme is "acting" all right.

(If i have made any mistake in interpreting the paper , please mention it )

Why would you talk about Cushings. I had cushings , Cushings lead to diffuse hairloss in me personally . You just thin out all over. Since cortisol just eats your hair if it is way too high.

Cortisol also takes the pressure off adrenaline. Don't forget, it does not just suppress the immune system.


I will look at the study again. DHEA is converted to testosterone with 3 beta and 17 beta. One is on NAD and one on NADPH. So it is the balance between 2 which is achieved thru potassium. In that study that you provide all 3 of these enzymes are high. Then how would people have high DHEA in male PB and high andro. If that is the case and everything is high , it is simply IRON overload. and manganese deficiency.


I forget Roddy story. He was screwing himself up with all these diets. I think he went 80 10 10 , then got the hairloss. I guess too much sugar , got the diffuse hairloss. Then he went into keto, hairloss got better, but he got impotent since he was converting all his dopamine into adrenaline on keto diet since adrenaline need is high .

And then in the end he just combined 2 diets, together into Peats diet.

 

[freeflow]

YOu need to run on sugar on normal adrenaline, on normal cortisol. If any of those oxidation means are impaired, you run into the problems.

You will run into problem with low cortisol, since that will put the pressure on adrenaline. you will run into problems with high cortisol Cushings, since it will cause hypokalemia. You will int problems if you have low adrenaline, which will cause collapse. ETC. You will run into problem when you have high adrenaline which will cause hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis.

What about the carb backloading diet? You run and work out mostly on fats and backload some carbs only after training.
THis is preferred on swole source pretty much.

 

[TubZy]

Even in slow metabolism by killing 3 beta hsd it will probably benefit your hair. Since the body cant handle the metabolic rate even if it is very very slow.

This is why we have people @TubZy who see that when they kill their metabolism with something their hair is thicker, but they feel very very slow.

But the idea is not to kill the metabolism , but to allow the body to produce enough horomones and antioxidants to raise the metabolism

LIke in 3 beta hsd deficiency, the actual enzyme is not deficient. it is fine. The problem is NAD. Without NAD this enzyme does not make progesterone, Why doesnt this enzyme make progesterone. Since progesterone will retain potassium and potassium will speed you up , speed up your thyroid effect , and if there is no NAD< then there is no NADPH. And if there is no NADPH , then by speeding up you wont be able to handle oxidative stress.


This is why people go on progesterone , which is the end product of 3 beta hsd, that speeds up the metabolism, and they feel better, energy wise, but could have hairloss if they have too little iron, since progesterone wont convert into cortisol without iron.. And they will be putting pressure on already low cortisol by increasing the metabolic rate. Same as with the thyroid. People with low 3beta hsd take the thyroid and start feeling more energy at first but then they will be running on adrenaline , since cortisol wont be there, they cant make it without 3 beta hsd. And to run on adrenaline you will be using b12 and folic acid, and folinic acid will go down. And folinic acid is what make DNA repair and grows hair.


So this is why 3 beta hsd is down in hairloss, it does not want to lift up metabolism. And to make this 3 beta hsd work, you need to make NAD work and NADPH work. So the body has the antioxidation . for the faster metabolism.

This is why if you are low on 3 beta and dont make any cortisol, then you will run on adrenaline, and to make adrenaline you need what? you need folic acid and b12 and protein.( methionine and cysteine) . And all your folic acid will go onto producing methylfolate. And folinic acid will be down. but it is folinic acid which produces the DNA repair and responsible to eNOS and hair repair.


This is why if you want to repair your metabolism you need to repair your sugar metabolism and NAD and NADPH levels , but if you just want the hair , then you just provide what the body is wasting and spending to run on in hairloss and that is folinic acid.

Where does fibrosis, calcification etc come into play in regards to hair? Are those just downstream effects that occur from being imbalanced metabolically?

 

[Helen]

Where does fibrosis, calcification etc come into play in regards to hair? Are those just downstream effects that occur from being imbalanced metabolically?

I think it is downstream effects really.

I think hairloss can happen from so many things , it is easier to go case by case. You see some people tell me that they have high DHEA< high andro, high test , high DHT. high progesterone, high cortisol.


@dante, Do you have the list of the hormones markers for a typical hairloss MPB/

Like all hormones in blood, Some wrote that DHEA is high , andro is high , what about the rest.

 

[TubZy]

I think it is downstream effects really.

I think hairloss can happen from so many things , it is easier to go case by case. You see some people tell me that they have high DHEA< high andro, high test , high DHT. high progesterone, high cortisol.


@dante, Do you have the list of the hormones markers for a typical hairloss MPB/

Like all hormones in blood, Some wrote that DHEA is high , andro is high , what about the rest.

I mention fibrosis because that usually is always associated in almost all cases whether it is hair loss or injury. So treating fibrosis either locally or systematically can have potential in treating hair loss regardless of the case IMO. It is simply a response that is caused from something else. This is why dermaneedling can help anything from hair to scar tissue, it breaks up fibrosis and releases growth factors. But again that would be happening locally not systematically so there is a bigger issue overall. Systematic/metabolic enzymes have been catching my eye lately because of this.

 

[Helen]

@dante, so you are saying that all hormones are high in MPB. then it does look that all 450 cytochrome enzyme are up. And then it is an iron overload problem.

Maybe that is why manganese was found low in all hairloss people. which I suggested for this type of hairloss

And Manganese does kill 3 beta hsd.

 

[dante]

@dante, so you are saying that all hormones are high in MPB. then it does look that all 450 cytochrome enzyme are up. And then it is an iron overload problem.

Maybe that is why manganese was found low in all hairloss people. which I suggested for this type of hairloss

And Manganese does kill 3 beta hsd.

I am not saying anything, i am simply quoting what they found in the study . First of all, i don't think they are saying that all enzymes are high . They are comparing the activity of enzymes in alopecic vs non-alopecic skin.
They found that 3 beta diol was higher in alopecic skin compared to hairy/non-alopecic skin.
Also, they found that androstenedione formed from testosterone was higher in hairy areas compared to alopecic areas and androstanedione formed from DHT was also higher in hairy areas compared to alopecic areas. ( which means that the oxidative side 17b-HSD is more dominant in hairy areas compared to alopecic areas as T to androstenedione is an oxidative reaction- atleast this is how i interpreted it)

Also, going by the 3b-HSD reaction in wikipedia
a 3β-hydroxy-Δ5-steroid + NAD+ ⇌ a 3-oxo-Δ5-steroid + NADH + H+

if formation of 3 beta diol is higher in alopecic area,it means the reaction is driven towards the backward side i.e NADH getting oxidized to NAD+ and DHT getting reduced to 3 beta diol.
Perhaps ,one could say that in alopecic areas , steroids are getting reduced more compared to hairy areas of the scalp !! What do you think ?

 

[tallglass13]

thank you @Helen , for your time on all this. I think you mentioning the oversexed and use of nitric oxide makes the most connection in the males that I observe... I think most males have abused either p*** or had too much sex without replenishing zinc and selenium and nitric oxide precursors... I think that's why minoxidil works because it's donating nitric oxide back to the scalp... A lot of people feel that scalp itch when they become aroused through masturbation or sex and it's probably from stealing the nitric oxide from the scalp...I just see so many males with the same exact pattern with the big horseshoe that dips all the way back of their head...so you're saying to keep bh4 up and so we can recycle and make Nitric Oxide without superoxide...

 

[TubZy]

To be honest, I think Danny Roddy is not the best example in relation to hair loss. Danny Roddy, IMO never even had hair loss and if he did it was VERY minimal almost like a shock type of loss that was barley noticeable. On top of that, the guy is as skinny as a twig with a weak jaw/frame and voice/lisp defintely not particular "healthy" looking to me at least. I was never a fan of him even on RPF.
I don't think Peats ideas work for hair instead you hear the same recycled phrase like a robot "eat more sugar, eat more carbs, eat more protein, take progesterone etc." like there has actually been documented proof that it worked in the past for hair.

I don't have anything against him, it's just if you are going to piggyback RP's name and make money out of it, criticism should be said, when needed.
Haidut does have some useful advice and can be helpful, but in the past when he said to another user "I have no interest in hair loss" and then it turns out he is bald himself is really interesting IMO

 

[Ingeno]

@dante, so you are saying that all hormones are high in MPB. then it does look that all 450 cytochrome enzyme are up. And then it is an iron overload problem.

Maybe that is why manganese was found low in all hairloss people. which I suggested for this type of hairloss

And Manganese does kill 3 beta hsd.

Manganese kills my libido after a few days, even when combined with zinc and regular vitamin B complex.

Also, on my horny days I shed more and get the scalp itch. No libido days and I have less hair loss. Does the perfect world even exist where you have zero hair loss and high libido?

 

[dante]

Haidut does have some useful advice and can be helpful, but in the past when he said to another user "I have no interest in hair loss" and then it turns out he is bald himself is really interesting IMO

I think haidut said that he lost most of his hair when he went keto and it seems that he recovered some of it . He said that the only example of almost complete hair regeneration that he has seen was in a college friend of his who was almost completely bald at the end of college,then went to live in Tian Shan mountains with a community and many years later when haidut saw him again , he had nearly completely regenerated his hair

 

[Helen]

I am not saying anything, i am simply quoting what they found in the study . First of all, i don't think they are saying that all enzymes are high . They are comparing the activity of enzymes in alopecic vs non-alopecic skin.
They found that 3 beta diol was higher in alopecic skin compared to hairy/non-alopecic skin.
Also, they found that androstenedione formed from testosterone was higher in hairy areas compared to alopecic areas and androstanedione formed from DHT was also higher in hairy areas compared to alopecic areas. ( which means that the oxidative side 17b-HSD is more dominant in hairy areas compared to alopecic areas as T to androstenedione is an oxidative reaction- atleast this is how i interpreted it)

Also, going by the 3b-HSD reaction in wikipedia
a 3β-hydroxy-Δ5-steroid + NAD+ ⇌ a 3-oxo-Δ5-steroid + NADH + H+

if formation of 3 beta diol is higher in alopecic area,it means the reaction is driven towards the backward side i.e NADH getting oxidized to NAD+ and DHT getting reduced to 3 beta diol.
Perhaps ,one could say that in alopecic areas , steroids are getting reduced more compared to hairy areas of the scalp !! What do you think ?

Yes it makes sense. I will think more about this study , it is interesting, but it looks like if there is a need for NAD then 3 beta hsd will work backwards. It fits along with what we said above about 3 beta hsd not working.( forward) and thus not retaining potassium and thus causing low cortisol which then causes high hdc and lowers the folate cycle.