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[MNK99]

-Dude everything's changed. In this city (those were basically just high pressure sales jobs tho -which are a bitch), my first jobs - brokerages, no way the bosses had undergrads, master''s, law degrees, phd's, mba's etc. They were old businessmen. But 3-5y later all different, 10 y later, even horses all over toronto and canada have masters and dual degress.
-It's mostly a scam. Not fake schools here unlike the states, but I feel you.
-Geologists, engineers (in good times, when oil's not in a bear market), rake it in here, if they also have social skills. I am no geologist nor engineer.

-One grey hair's not bad at all. and health definitely comes first. All your tests, going to class, actually studying... seeing profs, etc is way easier when schools a priority. So health for now makes total sense.
-Ny's crazy. Like 48000 lawyers, 26k bar positions.

 

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Restocked on B1, B2 and B6....Also continuing juicing and intermittent fasting type diet

 

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Will be incorporating the same training i went through from teens until crash....
Basketball, sprinting, sparring and strength training for isolated areas like wrists, forearms, hands and neck along with usual strength routines.

HOPEFULLY, I'll get atleast 50% of the bone mass i lost

 

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*IMPORTANT* UPDATE ON HOW TO RECOVER AND PREVENT DAMAGE:

Vitamin B2, B6, D and possibly B1 are crucial to maintain bone mass during PFS. B2 and B6 at 100 mg every 12 hrs. are the only things that stopped my bone pain and loss. I conclude with strong belief that these are essential to bone metabolism. If you just have early signs or mild PFS, I STRONGLY ADVISE to get on B2 and B6 before your bones are compromised stay on that indefinitely until you have resolved all other PFS issues.

BONE LOSS IS VERY VERY SLOW.
For me it started with slight testicular discomfort, then extreme fatigue, then tinnitus...months later it was loss of libido, less semen, etc...and within a year I started experiencing facial discomfort, face pressure, numbness in face, tingly fingers and hands, finger pain. Until 2 years in I wake up and see woman sized hands and wrists and less chin and jaw mass, shrunken elbows and ankles, shrunken shoulders and collar bone, shrunken teeth etc....TAKE B2 and B6 NOW and daily ... bone loss happens more often than what's posted in any forum. save yourself the trouble and trauma.
I know I post about this alot here but just want to leave some starting advice for new comers.

Is there a thread with a thought out intro for people just crashing with pfs?

A common list of things that has brought improvements for us all, so that new comers can go to something without having to consider a costly plan like TEI or ARL. A list of essential things like B2 and B6 are for me. I remember first starting and wasting valuable time reading through endless threads for answers and a pattern of what works.
A start up go to list would've been helpful.

 

[Helen]

*IMPORTANT* UPDATE ON HOW TO RECOVER AND PREVENT DAMAGE:

Vitamin B2, B6, D and possibly B1 are crucial to maintain bone mass during PFS. B2 and B6 at 100 mg every 12 hrs. are the only things that stopped my bone pain and loss. I conclude with strong belief that these are essential to bone metabolism. If you just have early signs or mild PFS, I STRONGLY ADVISE to get on B2 and B6 before your bones are compromised stay on that indefinitely until you have resolved all other PFS issues.

I know I post about this alot here but just want to leave some starting advice for new comers.

Is there a thread with a thought out intro for people just crashing with pfs?

A common list of things that has brought improvements for us all, so that new comers can go to something without having to consider a costly plan like TEI or ARL. A list of essential things like B2 and B6 are for me. I remember first starting and wasting valuable time reading through endless threads for answers and a pattern of what works.
A start up go to list would've been helpful.

.
Great that it is helping you

This is all written out in electrolytes protocol. It is in @Boris signature

 

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.
Great that it is helping you

This is all written out in electrolytes protocol. It is in @Boris signature

@Helen
Youre right...I guess what I mean to say is that for myself, I remember first crashing and not having a clue about anything. And I remember how my thoughts were racing and I couldn't think straight.

4 things kept happening in my search for answers.

1.People claiming they recovered and then saying later that they crashed again

2.People saying it's impossible to recover

3. People posting endless theories about pfs

4. People posting regimens to follow.

With my unstable mind I just kept banging my head in the wall because there was nothing clearly mapped out. I was looking for patterns of what works in recovery. I was looking for atleast a few pushes in the right direction where everyone agreed, "take this and do that" A starting point for my journey.

I also ran into too many people claiming that bone loss wasn't an issue...I may have tried more diligently to prevent it had I know those people were in denial.

Too many options with nothing clear was too much...now I see there are common traits in some protocols. That would've given me more confidence to try more sooner.

I hope you get where I'm coming from.

 

[Helen]

@Helen
Youre right...I guess what I mean to say is that for myself, I remember first crashing and not having a clue about anything. And I remember how my thoughts were racing and I couldn't think straight.

4 things kept happening in my search for answers.

1.People claiming they recovered and then saying later that they crashed again

2.People saying it's impossible to recover

3. People posting endless theories about pfs

4. People posting regimens to follow.

With my unstable mind I just kept banging my head in the wall because there was nothing clearly mapped out. I was looking for patterns of what works in recovery. I was looking for atleast a few pushes in the right direction where everyone agreed, "take this and do that" A starting point for my journey.

I also ran into too many people claiming that bone loss wasn't an issue...I may have tried more diligently to prevent it had I know those people were in denial.

Too many options with nothing clear was too much...now I see there are common traits in some protocols. That would've given me more confidence to try more sooner.

I hope you get where I'm coming from.

yeah, I understand you, but we so far mapped out possibilities for people, TEI, electrolytes protocol, Cdnuts protocol,

And also we are in final trials for hormonal routes.

SO soon we will have everything finalized, and tried. and then we will open up this forum. with final clean theory and all the routes how to do what.


As of now, forum is closed to the public, and we took on a few people just to try out all this on them.


We do have success with electrolytes protocol , I am cured, with it. Orion is cured, you see you are doing better.

We also have success with TEI.


And I hope we will have success with our hormonal routes. like anavar, ( which we are doing 2 months clean trial right now.)

And also the route which I suggested of estrogen, progesterone, pregnenolone and progesterone ( no trials of that route yet))


SO as you see we are working on organization of things. And when forum gets open to the public, we will have all the protocols outlined in more user friendly manner.


Glad that you are doing good.

 

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So i'm thinking back to my experience of crashing and relating it to the present and learning what it all means...

It all happened in about this order over the course of a year

1st was a bit of testicular discomfort....faded after a week or two

2nd extreme fatigue where i literally knocked out at a bar in the middle of watching a music show....NEVER happened before

3rd periods of fatigue

4th a bit of flacid shrinkage

5th tinnitus and INTENSE EXTREME back pain...that back pain lasted about 2 weeks and would come and go. I literally would have to sit down or lay down....i couldn't stand at all

6th Digestive system having odd sounds and movement....no discomfort or pain or anything...just strange behavior, no gas. sounds were like hunger sounds but not exactly....lasted about 3 months total

7th full on crash; suicidal thoughts, panic attacks, anxiety, insomnia, extreme total body bone pain or discomfort, sexual dysfunction, no emotions, fatigue, inability to taste anything, etc....

to be continued....

 

[MNK99]

--after and probably on effexor definitely went to the doctor several times complaining of odd stomach noises. (useless obviously).
-- anyways, with pfs, last yr like no digestion most the time. odd noises in refeed for a long time, better and better, mostly gone. in good diet/ basically gone after fast.
--Chronic fatigue gone. Couldn't rest with deep restful sleep, nor did I feel energetic. Now feel tired 30-40mins after waking up, but fine enough on tei.
--taking nothing, probably a bit less tired. or taking other things still tired 40-50m after waking up, but far cry (better) than tired 12-16hrs a day like in early Jan.
-Tinnitus hard to go symptom for many, and shrinkage one of the last ones too.
--Pains... I don't know, I am hypermobile and overtrained like crazy, lots of pain on randro and 4andro, and dissipated... and now only a couple areas unless I snap some shyt up or hit something (often, but only a toe or this and that, not 2 toes, 4 fingers, shoulder, back, neck, and legs).

 

[vicecaz]

So i'm thinking back to my experience of crashing and relating it to the present and learning what it all means...

It all happened in about this order over the course of a year

1st was a bit of testicular discomfort....faded after a week or two

2nd extreme fatigue where i literally knocked out at a bar in the middle of watching a music show....NEVER happened before

3rd periods of fatigue

4th a bit of flacid shrinkage

5th tinnitus and INTENSE EXTREME back pain...that back pain lasted about 2 weeks and would come and go. I literally would have to sit down or lay down....i couldn't stand at all

6th Digestive system having odd sounds and movement....no discomfort or pain or anything...just strange behavior, no gas. sounds were like hunger sounds but not exactly....lasted about 3 months total

7th full on crash; suicidal thoughts, panic attacks, anxiety, insomnia, extreme total body bone pain or discomfort, sexual dysfunction, no emotions, fatigue, inability to taste anything, etc....

to be continued....

My crashing story is similar to yours
Right after accutane I already didn't feel optimal but it was ok, ok enough not make me suspicious of what was coming lol. As week passed I was feeling more fatigued and weird but that was not really concerning. Then About 4/5 months post accutane I had a crazy high libido for about 10 days, I remember I felt on top of the world . Plenty reported an increase in libido before the crash . Not sure if you had it too but then anyway I was back to the post accutane baseline in the fatigued state, starting to slowly notice my sexual issue

I then got sick from the Influenza 7 months post accutane ( a virus ) in Japan, and that accelerated the crash ( could be a coincidence too ). A few days/weeks later I started to have terrible back pain you mentioned, no emotion, shrinkage, penis curvature to the left, no erection + the pain located in the middle of the d , dry skin like no androgens were traveling there anymore, face changing again and the extreme fatigue .. Had to stop walking on my way to school to sit down to rest, stopped sweating/ no more body odor, insomnia, anxiety..
Should mention that the dry eyes were there during accutane course, never really left but were even drier after the crash

Fatigue, back pain, anxiety, insomnia, penis curvature are gone today.

 

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I'm thinking the digestive movement and noises were a change in microbiome, receptors, hormonal input and output, changes in enzymes etc...

Gastroenterologist couldn't tell me shit of what was going on...I'm guessing they either can't test for it or its too much trouble.

 

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8th Veins dissappeared slowly and I had a period of odd pain in the bone of one leg.

 

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I'm a bit late but, Happy new year to all!
Hope we all reach recovery in 2019!

 

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Still pending for recovery:

Emotional connection to music
Need more energy
Get rid of tinnitus
improve overall bone mass
improve flaccid size
improve vein size a.k.a NO production
lose some weight

 

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Double checking on what contributes to skeletal mass to hopefully crack the code and get the manly hands and facial structure back for some of us.

Points of focus for bone width:
(These are all contributors to bone mass)

Increase Testosterone
Increase HGH
Increase Osteoblast production while lowering osteoclasts.
Increase DHT

There may be issue with the Osteoblast/ Osteoclasts mechanism, being the proteins which are involved in the process.
I don't know if they were compromised or not as I haven't gotten any tests to learn this. This is TBD.

Now it's interesting to note that you can grow tall, but not have a protruding skeletal appearance. What I mean is having bone definition such as defined knuckles, wrists, clavicle bone, ankles, chin etc.

So bone height doesn't automatically correlate to bone pronouncement OR skeletal "width"...what I mean by width is the bones in your arms look like spaghetti noodles or look like fettuccine. I think most of you understand?

I've come to this conclusion based on observations of other people. Mainly my friends i train with. Some of them have height but don't have accented points of skeletal development. And some have no height but do have accented skeletal points. The ones with less skeletal mass also seem to have little to no NO production...how so? They have no veins showing like one of my sides. Also they may have less DHT...

This leads to my conclusion that factors such as DHT level may play a bigger role in the bone appearance issue some of us face.

CONCLUSION:

I think DHT is one of the main factors as to the skeletal "width"/pronouncement. I'm guessing DHT production shoots back up after TEI or ARL?

I prefer to not use Exogenous DHT

If this isn't enough, then I'll be testing an herb that inhibits osteoclasts but that is very experimental. It is usually only given to elderly people with osteoporosis issues. I'm not sure If that can present other issues???? Inhibition seems to work against the body.

 

[SwaZ]

Taller bones are not the same as thicker or wider bones. Bone height depends on prepubertial epiphyseal growth, so the more the cartilage grows the more it gets ossified after puberty thus you end up taller with longer bones.

Bone thicknes and "width" seems to be mostly influenced by androgens but im not sure its 100% dht or even close to 100%

Most bodybuilders who run androgenic hormones do get some growth but it seems igf1 or hgh play a much larger role.

 

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Taller bones are not the same as thicker or wider bones. Bone height depends on prepubertial epiphyseal growth, so the more the cartilage grows the more it gets ossified after puberty thus you end up taller with longer bones.

Bone thicknes and "width" seems to be mostly influenced by androgens but im not sure its 100% dht or even close to 100%

Most bodybuilders who run androgenic hormones do get some growth but it seems igf1 or hgh play a much larger role.

...I would say androgens could be close to 100% going by my observations of different people and their physiology, diet and average overall structure.

My question is if we can get androgens production turned back on in the body to natural levels?

 

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Do androgen receptors still work now in crash or do they come back after following protocol and recovering?

 

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...I would say androgens could be close to 100% going by my observations of different people and their physiology, diet and average overall structure.

My question is if we can get androgens production turned back on in the body to natural levels?

According to Chi's log, he claimed to have periods where his wrists and hands would shrink and then grow back.In the end he said it returned to normal size.

He didn't provide any hormonal evaluation post recovery.

So the question is, did he recover bone mass or was this false?

Did age play a role? He was in his mid 20's while recovering...

Also, does the timing of following a regimen matter? He apparently started his recovery at the first signs of crashing.

His route seemed to be mineral, TEI, lifestyle etc...

So maybe he just regained his androgen receptors and that was enough?

He's the only one to log bone improvement...don't know what to make of it...

 

[wuf]

According to Chi's log, he claimed to have periods where his wrists and hands would shrink and then grow back.In the end he said it returned to normal size.

He didn't provide any hormonal evaluation post recovery.

So the question is, did he recover bone mass or was this false?

Did age play a role? He was in his mid 20's while recovering...

Also, does the timing of following a regimen matter? He apparently started his recovery at the first signs of crashing.

His route seemed to be mineral, TEI, lifestyle etc...

So maybe he just regained his androgen receptors and that was enough?

He's the only one to log bone improvement...don't know what to make of it...

What you just said in your last post is COMPLETELY wrong.
I was in touch with CHI and I still have his phone number.
He recovered everything 100%.
He was 30 when he started his protocol.
He started his protocol after 3,5 years suffering.
His route was based on diet, sport, supplements and gut supplements.