I got copper for everyone! Sky high tissue copper. Hair mineral analysis

Area-1255

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High copper mimics all the symptoms of high estrogen: water retention, tendency to weep, irritability, digestive issues, and either an excessive or absent libido, to the extent that one can hypothesise that copper somehow directly increases estrogen. Zinc is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances with a very large number of positive testimonials behind it. Zinc is known to displace copper and so there’s that connection. Before getting into Ray Peat I was supplementing resverstrol which is alleged to remove copper (also stated by gbolduev) and I had the classic low estrogen symptoms like joint pain and exceptional muscle tone. Joint pains are seemingly a common complaint with resverstrol but apart from gbolduev no one has tied it to its ability to remove copper.
Yes, the high Copper type tends to "romanticize" things and exhibits a highly obsessive personality without the necessary aspect of Compulsion. THUS, High Copper types are prone to falling in love easier and maintaining the "fire" of relationships more...not necessarily a bad thing, but for many of us here might as well be damning.
This goes for both Men & Women, however, in Men, high Copper's effects will depend on E2 levels more.
 

HerrFisch

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"Chronic diseases most likely have low iron in the cell. Probably caused by an infection where the body stores iron in the liver and takes it out of the blood and puts copper there.
Estrogen makes copper available and increases Ceruloplasmin."

@gbolduev Do you think its possible to use iron in chronic diseases with "pathogenic bacterial infection" even if the body still thinks there is bacteria?
Just by lowering copper and having gooid CP, xanthine oxidase (b2, moly) and maybe manganese ?

Would you still suggest plankton?

My Estrogen level is at 31 (11-43) so I think my CP should be O.K. But Im going to test that next time.
 

Yura

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I am surprised that nobody is mentioning molybdenum.. Zinc is not capable to remove free(unbound) copper from the body. Zinc can only inhibit absorption of copper if they are ingested at the same time. But molybdenum on the other hand is capable of bound to free copper and excrete it trough kidneys/urine.. Btw real copper deficiency from ingesting diet with inadequate copper is rare. Today we have exact opposite issues. Due to estrogens everywhere. Estrogen can retain copper. With more and more copper there will be less and less cofactors for copper metabolism and ceruloplasmin production+ high unbound copper will exhaust adrenals and with low adrenal function you can't produce enough ceruloplasmin.. This "copper paradox" is the reason why like 99% of people and even doctors etc.. don't understand this.. More free copper and less ceruloplasmin = more copper deficiency symptoms. So you keep eating more and more copper( like woman do with chocolate, nuts etc..) But your symtoms will get only worse and worse.. I was in this fucking vicious cycle for years.. When you go on low copper diet(like 1,5-2mg a day) + no sugar, no stimulants, no harder exercises.. You will be like a zombie literally.. But it is way to give a body chance to slow down and give adrenals and liver chance to function properly again. So your ceruloplasmin will go up and your bile flow will be eficient to eliminate excess copper from the liver.. Morley Robbins and his "root cause protocol" for increasing ceruloplasmin is ok. But don't eat beef liver. It is last thing you want. Copper is basically in everything and 1-2mg is plenty. Morley is right that iron in excess is bad, but he underestimates excess copper very badly.. I fucked myself badly due to steroid abuse. Because I was on high testosterone without antiestrogens. My aromatase worked like crazy so I had very high estradiol for years.. When I stopped using. My estradiol dropped to normal, so my ceruloplasmin as well, but copper was there. I experienced crazy oxidative damage. Collagen loss. My joints, blood vessles, skin. I aged like 20 years in couple of months.. I have spider veins, one large vein on my leg was removed etc.. I was 27 Btw.. That's why this is happening mainly in women. Because estrogen will retain copper. Especially if she is taking estrogen pills.. Then if the person is not doing everything right. Like good diet with enough protein, no sugar, stimulants, no exessive intake of copper, enough zinc, magnesium, b vitamins, molybdenum, vit C etc.. Adrenals will no be able to work properly, bile flow will be very low and you are in very bad trap.. Untill you understand all of this.. I can see like my sister has the same issues like many woman. She was on estrogen pills also.. She is eating nuts, seeds and chocolate foods like crazy. The body craves those foods. It is temporary stimul. But with more and more depletion of adrenals, ceruloplasmin lvl and micronutrients like molybdenum, B vitamins, zinc, magnesium, vitC etc.. She will not listen to me untill she will crash completely like I did 4 years a go.. It is not fun to have zero energy on cellular level, depression, and every day suicidal thoughts..
 

Yura

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I already described my problems. Bad collagen/elastin synthesis, hypothyroidism, no bile flow, adrenal fatigue... With 3mg of molybdenum free copper is going down. Ceruloplasmin is slowly rising. It takes long time to get in some decent shape. But the main thing is that there are no more mental issues and if they show up you know what it is. When you have no clue what is going on and why. I can see why people end their lives..
 

opiath

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I am surprised that nobody is mentioning molybdenum.. Zinc is not capable to remove free(unbound) copper from the body. Zinc can only inhibit absorption of copper if they are ingested at the same time. But molybdenum on the other hand is capable of bound to free copper and excrete it trough kidneys/urine.. Btw real copper deficiency from ingesting diet with inadequate copper is rare. Today we have exact opposite issues. Due to estrogens everywhere. Estrogen can retain copper. With more and more copper there will be less and less cofactors for copper metabolism and ceruloplasmin production+ high unbound copper will exhaust adrenals and with low adrenal function you can't produce enough ceruloplasmin.. This "copper paradox" is the reason why like 99% of people and even doctors etc.. don't understand this.. More free copper and less ceruloplasmin = more copper deficiency symptoms. So you keep eating more and more copper( like woman do with chocolate, nuts etc..) But your symtoms will get only worse and worse.. I was in this fucking vicious cycle for years.. When you go on low copper diet(like 1,5-2mg a day) + no sugar, no stimulants, no harder exercises.. You will be like a zombie literally.. But it is way to give a body chance to slow down and give adrenals and liver chance to function properly again. So your ceruloplasmin will go up and your bile flow will be eficient to eliminate excess copper from the liver.. Morley Robbins and his "root cause protocol" for increasing ceruloplasmin is ok. But don't eat beef liver. It is last thing you want. Copper is basically in everything and 1-2mg is plenty. Morley is right that iron in excess is bad, but he underestimates excess copper very badly.. I fucked myself badly due to steroid abuse. Because I was on high testosterone without antiestrogens. My aromatase worked like crazy so I had very high estradiol for years.. When I stopped using. My estradiol dropped to normal, so my ceruloplasmin as well, but copper was there. I experienced crazy oxidative damage. Collagen loss. My joints, blood vessles, skin. I aged like 20 years in couple of months.. I have spider veins, one large vein on my leg was removed etc.. I was 27 Btw.. That's why this is happening mainly in women. Because estrogen will retain copper. Especially if she is taking estrogen pills.. Then if the person is not doing everything right. Like good diet with enough protein, no sugar, stimulants, no exessive intake of copper, enough zinc, magnesium, b vitamins, molybdenum, vit C etc.. Adrenals will no be able to work properly, bile flow will be very low and you are in very bad trap.. Untill you understand all of this.. I can see like my sister has the same issues like many woman. She was on estrogen pills also.. She is eating nuts, seeds and chocolate foods like crazy. The body craves those foods. It is temporary stimul. But with more and more depletion of adrenals, ceruloplasmin lvl and micronutrients like molybdenum, B vitamins, zinc, magnesium, vitC etc.. She will not listen to me untill she will crash completely like I did 4 years a go.. It is not fun to have zero energy on cellular level, depression, and every day suicidal thoughts..

You are on point. Except I don't buy it that estrogen retains copper.
In fact evidence seems to point the opposite.
Estradiol is raised in copper toxicity in order to get RID of the copper.
Women that are pregnant or taking estrogen pills have high urinary copper.
Resveratrol which is an analog of estrogen chelates copper out.
The only reason why estrogen might lead to copper retention is because estrogen/progesterone inbalance stops the gallbladder.
Girls crave chocolate because they loose a lot of copper during their monthly cycles as long as their liver is healthy.
They crash after menopause because when progesterone and estrogen flat out copper starts building up.

Active copper influx is determined by CTR1 and ATP7A gene expression in the gut.
That's what determines how much gets in and estrogen does not increase those except if you're pregnant and your fetus needs copper.
But if you eat a lot of it, it is passively absorbed and you get overload.

Otherwise I think what you say is valid.
Interested to hear in your molybdenum experience also.
 

Admiral

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947
I already described my problems. Bad collagen/elastin synthesis, hypothyroidism, no bile flow, adrenal fatigue... With 3mg of molybdenum free copper is going down. Ceruloplasmin is slowly rising. It takes long time to get in some decent shape. But the main thing is that there are no more mental issues and if they show up you know what it is. When you have no clue what is going on and why. I can see why people end their lives..

Yura, your symptoms are much like mine. Appreciate your insights.

You speak of lowering free copper in your case, but mine is a bit different. My copper levels are already baseline, yet I still have build up copper in my system that I am getting rid off. I reckon my copper levels are extremely low right now.

This is all so confusing me haha
 

HerrFisch

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@opiath

High estrogen increases copper absorption / use / binding.
Normally estrogen is high in fast metabolism. And you need that copper in fast.

Copper retention happens as soon you get into low metabolism and there is no need for copper, but you got plenty left.

And you can only chelate copper, if its free. But to get to the copper in the liver, you need ceruloplasmin (which increases with estrogen) or push it out with manganese etc.
But I think its not good to have high estrogen in low metabolism.
And thats why there will be copper dumps with adrenaline or potassium, which speeds up metabolism.

@Admiral

Maybe the difference between high or low copper on hair tests from copper toxic is estrogen levels.
Probably depends on wheater its bound or not and if its free or in tissue.
 

Yura

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I can't agree opiath. This is the core of the issue. With elevated estrogen comes elevated copper and vise versa. I wouldn't be in this shit story with copper issues if I was using aromatase inhibitors.. Same with girls who are going crazy on pills. Estrogen goes up and copper as well. After 5 years I know this for sure..
CopperToxic.com
 

opiath

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@opiath
High estrogen increases copper absorption.
I don't think so. Can you prove it?

And you can only chelate copper, if its free. But to get to the copper in the liver, you need ceruloplasmin (which increases with estrogen) or push it out with manganese etc.
To get rid of copper you don't need ceruloplasmin, or zinc, or manganese.
These will only push it out in the blood and maybe you piss some of it out. But you will get crazy symptoms.
The problematic storage site is the liver. And to get copper out of the liver you only need histidine to bind it and transport it to ATP7B intracellulary.
That's all.
This drops copper in the billiary canals and it's gone.

That's why you get copper accumulation in Wilson's disease. Because ATP7B is not working.
And thats why they give penicillamine, zinc and molybdenum. To piss it out instead of it going through the bile.
 

opiath

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@Yura
Don't blame this on not taking AIs.
You took Test, this killed your 3 beta hsd and you flushed out all of your zinc.
This crashed your metabolism and you lost control over copper.
And now estrogen is your scapegoat.
 

Yura

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I am not alone who is talking about relation between estrogen and copper.. I am open to anything, but this is well known fact..
 

Slayo

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I'm confused about copper-estrogens too.....if girls take estrogen pills the logic says that they will loose copper (the logic that if you supplement the end product you will loose the raw materials, and since copper makes estrogens using estrogens will make you loose copper), but i read everywhere that estrogens pills increase copper, so has anyone scientific research that can support one of this theory or there is no definitive answer ?
 

MNK99

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Yura

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I'm confused about copper-estrogens too.....if girls take estrogen pills the logic says that they will loose copper (the logic that if you supplement the end product you will loose the raw materials, and since copper makes estrogens using estrogens will make you loose copper), but i read everywhere that estrogens pills increase copper, so has anyone scientific research that can support one of this theory or there is no definitive answer ?
It is simple. I haven't seen or heard about DHT dominant male with copper toxicity issues. But woman on estrogen pills? All the time.. They are exact opposite to each other. One is zinc dominant and other is copper dominant. One crave steak and other crave chocolate and sweets..The ideal zinc to copper ratio for man and woman as well is 8:1. If you are estrogen dominant/copper toxic. Than you will see health issues typical for women after estrogen pills like hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, varicose veins, gallstones, mental issues etc.. I also believe that estrogen/copper is related to prostate, breast, ovarian and other types of cancers..
 
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Slayo

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It is simple. I haven't seen or heard about DHT dominant male with copper toxicity issues. But woman on estrogen pills? All the time.. They are exact opposite to each other. One is zinc dominant and other is copper dominant. One crave steak and other crave chocolate and sweets..The ideal zinc to copper ratio for man and woman as well is 8:1. If you are estrogen dominant/copper toxic. Than you will see health issues typical for women after estrogen pills like hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, varicose veins, gallstones, mental issues etc.. I also believe that estrogen/copper is related to prostate, breast, ovarian and other types of cancers..
yes but there is research about it ? How this fits with Gbolduev saying estrogens chelate copper ?
 

Helen

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It is simple. I haven't seen or heard about DHT dominant male with copper toxicity issues. But woman on estrogen pills? All the time.. They are exact opposite to each other. One is zinc dominant and other is copper dominant. One crave steak and other crave chocolate and sweets..The ideal zinc to copper ratio for man and woman as well is 8:1. If you are estrogen dominant/copper toxic. Than you will see health issues typical for women after estrogen pills like hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, varicose veins, gallstones, mental issues etc.. I also believe that estrogen/copper is related to prostate, breast, ovarian and other types of cancers..


DHT dominant males ALL have copper toxicity issue. This is why DHT is high in hairloss. Most of those people are copper toxic. or aluminum or lead toxic

Aromatase inhibitors retain copper, since estrogen is not working and body is trying very hard to retain copper. to make estrogen. Actual estrogen chelates copper, any estrogenic substance taken from outside will chelate copper, like reseveratrol. Resveratrol is estrogen and it causes copper deficiency. Women who get spider veins take progestins, not estrogen pills. SODS contain both copper and zinc , so spider veins could be from zinc or copper deficiency . it is all about balance.

If you dont have high copper on a hairtest, your problem is not copper. Your problem is metalothionein. And most likely either lead mercury or alumunium. Copper does show on the hairtest and ARL is wrong talking about hidden copper toxicities.

As far as copper toxicity symptoms , women get them by inserting UID. this is when I see high copper on hairtests. Estrogen pills do cause hypothyrodism if taken constantly since estrogen lowers thyroid effect. But when they quit this estrogen, they are all low on estrogen later, since estrogen chelated their copper.

Molybdenum helps mercury more than copper. But molydenum is needed for All MT metalo enzymes as a cofactor, so it will be used up in any kind of metal toxicity. Slow oxidizers are mostly toxic in aluminum and lead. Some are toxic in copper, but then copper DOES show up on the hairtest. As you can see on hairtests of people with high copper. I saw thousands of them.

And also I saw people who have low copper on hairtests and they keep chelating this copper and get older and older looking, since the problem is not copper, the problem other metals, which stop methylation and stop metabolism from going up.

I have seen gazzillion hairtests when copper did not show on the hairtest and people were chelating copper it NEVER ended well. Since the problem was not copper. But you still need zinc molybdenum for the work of metalpthionein. This is why zinc and molybdenum are given, but also copper is always given with ARL program. since it is not about copper. ARL gives copper to people with 95% chance. They give all slow oxidizers limcomin , it has plenty of copper in it.

If I see a person with high hair copper, then I do know that they lack metalothionein. They need boron , zinc moly , b6 manganese for a while. then they need to add copper after copper comes down.

As far as bile flow. Progestins stop bile flow. copper increases bile flow. Since bile is secreted to get rid of copper and get fat soluble vitamin A absorbed. So if there is copper deficiency body will not want vitamin A and will stop bile. You can see your bile pretty much white, if you take zinc and manganese and you are deficient in copper.


Bottom line, copper DOES show on hairtest, I tried it million times. IF a person is a slow oxidizer and you give that person copper or copper foods, COPPER will show on the hairtest with a 100% chance.

ARL knows this and they know it is not about copper. This is why all their programs give copper at all times. I don't agree with that. and I dont give copper to people with high copper. But people with low copper mostly will need all SODS to lift up the metabolism. And it is not about copper for them , it is about glutathione redox and recycling.